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post #91 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 01:56 PM
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Helmets can fog up blocking your vision, they are dangerous.
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post #92 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
Helmets can fog up blocking your vision, they are dangerous.
open your chin vent

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post #93 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:51 PM
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post #94 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:16 PM
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It rubbed Ken's hair clean OFF!

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post #95 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:26 PM
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post #96 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:26 AM
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Hey.. To Wink and everyone on here who doesn't believe in the slippery slope or that there is a possibility of HP limits or specific bike limits...

I was looking at wikipedia entry for motorcycle safety and came across this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcy...ty#Controversy

Quote:
A report by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety claimed that "supersport" motorcycles were four times more likely to be involved in highway crashes than other types. When reprinting this press release as a news report, USA Today omitted the word "insurance" from the "Insurance Institute for Highway Safety", giving a false impression the IIHS is a governmental agency, not a private corporation with a conflict of interest.[8]

According to the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), the IIHS report was an attempt to either ban entire categories of motorcycles, or a covert attempt to legislate requirement for speed governors in all vehicles.[9] The IIHS report was not a new study, being an analysis of existing data from the national Fatal Accident Reporting System. The methodology consisted of a comparison of fatalities for different styles of motorcycles based on a rate per 10,000 registrations. The report did no incorporate key factors, such as the number of miles the bike was ridden, the traffic environment in which it was used, along with the age and experience of the rider, among others.[9]

...

This new IIHS report is remarkably similar to a study the group financed 20 years ago that also purported to show higher fatality rates among sportbikes. At that time, the IIHS used its study as the springboard for a well-orchestrated campaign that included ready-made news footage it fed to TV news operations across the country. That campaign culminated in the introduction of a bill in the U.S. Senate to impose a horsepower limit on all motorcycles sold in the U.S.

In response to that previous attempt by the IIHS to ban sportbikes, the AMA conducted an analysis of the study and raised questions that the Association submitted to Harry Hurt, lead researcher on the most comprehensive study of motorcycle crashes ever conducted. Hurt reviewed the research and declared it "fatally flawed" for exactly the kind of methodology problems seen in the new IIHS report. The Association then coordinated a campaign among motorcyclists across the country that eventually led the senator to withdraw his proposed legislation.[9]
So while it has not happen.. Don't ever think that those who are out to save us from ourselves aren't still trying to accomplish that mission. Helmets might help, but wouldn't banning sportbikes help a lot more?

Side note.. I heard on the radio this morning that our new gov may sign legislation allowing speed cameras in cook and all surrounding jurisdictions.. 100$ a pop.. I guess it won't go on your license or make anything safer.. but hey.. money to be made..

tell me again how this slope isn't slippery and one act does not provide a foundation for the next?
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post #97 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:30 AM
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post #98 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gconsier View Post
Hey.. To Wink and everyone on here who doesn't believe in the slippery slope or that there is a possibility of HP limits or specific bike limits...

I was looking at wikipedia entry for motorcycle safety and came across this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcy...ty#Controversy



So while it has not happen.. Don't ever think that those who are out to save us from ourselves aren't still trying to accomplish that mission. Helmets might help, but wouldn't banning sportbikes help a lot more?

Side note.. I heard on the radio this morning that our new gov may sign legislation allowing speed cameras in cook and all surrounding jurisdictions.. 100$ a pop.. I guess it won't go on your license or make anything safer.. but hey.. money to be made..

tell me again how this slope isn't slippery and one act does not provide a foundation for the next?


The natural progression of laws in the name of "safety" is always moving forward. These laws WILL infringe on MY choices at some point. Probally even in my lifetime.

Sportbikes are an unnecessary and dangerous thing in the eyes of MANY people. The governemt doesn't like unnecessary and dangerous things

Once there is a helmet law in the majority of states. Do people honestly think they will stop proposing "safety" laws?

Nope. It WILL progress beyond that. And what do you think is the next step in the progression?

There already is precedient. 3-wheelers were made illegal in the 80's. Kids dirtbikes were made illegal this year.

Eric

Last edited by Maynard; 03-26-2009 at 10:39 AM.
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post #99 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:35 AM
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Sounds like some good info, thanks for sharing it. I suppose in my preference I'd argue about whether or not helmets should be mandated by law. But, I can see the slippery slope argument as well.

I don't really see how insurance actuarials, which are based on REAL DATA can help the argument that helmets are not better for society at large. in my opinion, based on that report, helmets are 4 times more utilized for supersports than they would be for other motorcycle categories.

Of course, this brings up my second argument in my first post.

Helmets and gear should be required.

To address the IIHS study above, I would think that a graduated licensing method would have significant effect on the numbers in the study as it has in Europe.

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post #100 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:38 AM
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It must be true if it's on Wiki, now where the fuck did my tin foil hat go?
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post #101 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
It must be true if it's on Wiki, now where the fuck did my tin foil hat go?
Bobby it is referring to the IIHS and Hurt report.
That's not conspiracy theory.

Go take a look.
The AMA called them on it and he admitted that some of his data was flawed.
but the fact that the Insurance companies have tried to ban sportbikes multiple times is not "a conspiracy theory" it is a fact.. and from their point of view it makes total sense.. If I were them and not a rider.. I would probably agree with them too..

To bury your head in the sand and just pretend that someone is not out trying to take away one of your freedoms really doesn't make it not so. I realize you yourself really can't do much against the machine.. but if you look at what I posted it appears the AMA did. and the AMA is us.. So.. I would call it credible


Have you ever hung out with non-bikers? Many of them hate bikers..
and Insurance companies don't like getting stuck with the 6 and sometimes 7 figure bills when someone hurts themselves.. They would be much happier to just take in premiums and not have to pay them out.

but.. just to appease you
http://www.ct.gov/dot/LIB/dot/Docume...CTDOT_Hurt.pdf
one of those .gov conspiracy sites

Little more information
http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/motorcycles.html

the sad thing is.. for the most part.. they are right
we don't NEED to ride motorcycles.. There really aren't a lot of logical reasons to do something that is 30 times more likely to get you killed vs driving in a car... "that fuckin rawked" does not often find it's way into legal arguments

Last edited by iamnotgreg; 03-26-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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post #102 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:53 AM
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Bobby it is referring to the IIHS and Hurt report.
That's not conspiracy theory.
I did read...did you?

Quote:
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references (ideally, using inline citations). Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2009)
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post #103 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 10:58 AM
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I did read...did you?
http://home.ama-cycle.org/newsroom/a...sp?rnum=A07017
did you follow any of the citations?
Wikipedia isn't perfect but it does tend to present one with a lot of information that is more often than not true or corrected in a timely fashion

but this isn't about wikipedia.
this is about helmet laws.. and the point that once they finally knock that hurdle out of the way they can go start on the next one..

It was mentioned that Sportbike bans or HP limits would never happen.. and I was merely pointing out that it has been strongly attempted before.. and for sure it will be attempted again
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post #104 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:01 AM
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Kinda along these lines, have cars ever had a BHP limit put on them? Not trying to thread jack, just seeing if they are limiting cars the way they do bikes.
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post #105 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:05 AM
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I have never heard of a limit on the cars other than size, pollution and noise levels.

I would assume that the limits would be on bikes because a stock Gixxer thou or Busa can beat just about any car that you could buy or build at a VERY lost comparative cost point. Translation, you don;t need to earn a lifetime and mature to drive one, you can drive one as soon as you can get a license and they are within relatively easy financial reach.

Graduated licensing helps solve this problem. Give more power to those that have the experience and maturity.

Anyone wanna talk about why helmets shouldn't be mandatory?

Still waiting for some logical arguments. Trying to learn here folks, no one has been helping.

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post #106 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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Kinda along these lines, have cars ever had a BHP limit put on them? Not trying to thread jack, just seeing if they are limiting cars the way they do bikes.
Europe has a voluntary speed limiter on almost all cars (only a handful of supercars don't.. even some of them, such as the SLR have them in place)

If I remember correctly it is 155

Let's be honest here.. We know that high performance bikes are more dangerous than low performance bikes.. and even low performance ones are more dangerous than cars.. (especially since there are cars.. but even without them on the road they would still be more dangerous) so the ama argument is flawed... sucks but it is true.
I have owned everything from Buell Blasts to Gixxer 1000's and I can honestly say.. The gixxer is less safe than say the SV650.. Less room for error, easier to get in trouble on, and just one more thing to worry about.. Do they have their place? Absolutely. But for the predominately older folks in positions of power.. "Those damn things are a menace.. flying up on them.. running from cops.. those people have no regard for the law and shouldn't be allowed to have vehicles that are made to go 3x the highest speed limits in the......"
You've heard that all before.. right?
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post #107 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gconsier View Post
http://home.ama-cycle.org/newsroom/a...sp?rnum=A07017 was merely pointing out that it has been strongly attempted before.. and for sure it will be attempted again
As long as something could possibly threaten your life, people will try to protect you from whatever that may be.

Sometimes people need to remember that we're human and won't live forever. But at the same time, if you need to be told to be safe, there are some issues. I wear more gear on my damn Specialized road bike than most people wear on motorcycles. It's not uncomfortable, you get used to it, and they do protect you.

Is it Spring yet? The damn floridasportbikers board doesn't have crazy ass threads like this...
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post #108 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:13 AM
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btw.
Wink I agree with you on the Graduated Licensing thing.. I believe it should be harder to get a license.. There definitely should be more training involved.. and everytime I hear of someone getting a Gixxer 1k or a Busa.. or often even one of the new 600's I wince.. I know I started on a 9r, but if I had it all to do over again.. I wouldn't have.

I think you are pretty spot on with your argument, but in that car world they may be a minority.. but we know some kids (often by way of parental privilege) are able to...

I know we have at least one kid on CLSB.. who is what.. 19 or 20 with an M5.. A friggin 500hp M5 and that's stock which I doubt his totally is anymore)

One of my little bro in laws best friends just got an 1198.. first bike
From what I know he is learning to ride on it
He also has a BMW 335 built to the tits.. I have his old WRX (300+ hp)

Luckily he is well enough to do that he is done quite a bit of car track time (they have a few porsches in varying race trim and 2 private jets to get around...) so money isn't so much of an issue.. the kid is .. 23 i think.

Obviously there are always going to be those one or two offs.. but yea.. that's probably the reason...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
I have never heard of a limit on the cars other than size, pollution and noise levels.

I would assume that the limits would be on bikes because a stock Gixxer thou or Busa can beat just about any car that you could buy or build at a VERY lost comparative cost point. Translation, you don;t need to earn a lifetime and mature to drive one, you can drive one as soon as you can get a license and they are within relatively easy financial reach.

Graduated licensing helps solve this problem. Give more power to those that have the experience and maturity.

Anyone wanna talk about why helmets shouldn't be mandatory?

Still waiting for some logical arguments. Trying to learn here folks, no one has been helping.
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post #109 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 11:36 AM
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post #110 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 12:02 PM
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srsly?
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post #111 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave13 View Post
Kinda along these lines, have cars ever had a BHP limit put on them? Not trying to thread jack, just seeing if they are limiting cars the way they do bikes.
FYI...cars have top speed limits put on them to correspond to the stock tire ratings.

Jetskis also have top speed limits put on them per an unofficial agreement with the coast guard and the manufacturers. This agreement was made under the threat of pursuit of legislation.

Greg

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post #112 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 12:19 PM
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How about NO new laws, and just actually enforcing the ones they already have. Who in their right mind wants more laws and more government. Didn't y'all move outta yer parents home yet! Grow up n take yer balls outta yer mommies purse and stand on yer own two feet. Make yer own decisions for yerself first, then teach yer kids to do the same. Think and worry about yourself. Be a little independent. Shit, do you want someone else pushin their religion on you?

What if I told you insane was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years at the end of which they tell you to piss off; ending up in some retirement village hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time? Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?
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post #113 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
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Anyone wanna talk about why helmets shouldn't be mandatory?

Still waiting for some logical arguments. Trying to learn here folks, no one has been helping.
Have you been reading this thread?!?

You know what, you're right. Helmets should be mandatory. But fuck, why stop at motorcycles? You can't argue the LOGICAL fact that those would help in car accidents as well. And lets ban all sportbikes, cause LOGICALLY their is no purpose to them on the street. 250cc limit for all street bikes. Ya know, screw it, no 2 wheel vehicles on the road PERIOD. LOGICALLY, cars are THE safest way of transportation.
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post #114 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Graduated licensing helps solve this problem. Give more power to those that have the experience and maturity.

Anyone wanna talk about why helmets shouldn't be mandatory?

Still waiting for some logical arguments. Trying to learn here folks, no one has been helping.
The question is does the Illinois government have the RIGHT to mandate that motorcyclists wear helmets. How does the government have the right to mandate that? Me wearing a helmet does not affect anyone else besides myself. Why can the government say we cant blow throw stop signs? Because when you blow through a stop sign you are putting someone else's life/property at risk. When you don't wear a helmet you are not putting anyone else's life/property at risk other than your own.

Quote:
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In motorcycle terms, that's like taking your Ducati to a dealer for service, and they hand you back a 1979 backfiring Honda 400 Hawk.. because after all, a bike is a bike.
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post #115 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 03:27 PM
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[QUOTE=Wink;1377092fin

Anyone wanna talk about why helmets shouldn't be mandatory?

Still waiting for some logical arguments. Trying to learn here
folks, no one has been helping.[/QUOTE]

Should you choose not to obey the law, a cager may get upset and purposely run you off the road. Just like what happens in helmet law states.
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post #116 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 03:39 PM
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And for some reason you think that people that do that CARE if you have a helmet on?

I have had that happen to me many times with AND without a helmet on in both helmet law states and non-helmet law states.

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post #118 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 03:51 PM
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I wear a helmet driving my car. I could gets hurt.
ive been known to do the same

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post #119 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 03:54 PM
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Why do people wear helmets skydiving? Really what's the point. If you actually NEED a helmet from skydiving isn't it already too late at that point?

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post #120 of 146 (permalink) Old 03-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Slow Old Guy.
 
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SS Barrington
Posts: 17,258
Location: SS Barrington
Sportbike: Inline Two Wheeled
Years Riding: Since the beginning of time
How you found us: Dan Ortega sent me
           
Who was it that wore a helmet drinking at the bar? What movie was that?

===========
Great Quote - One would think that the Secret Service was smart enough to get serviced secretly.

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