Great Read: Making the jump from trackdays to racing - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Cool Great Read: Making the jump from trackdays to racing

http://www.trackdaymag.com/Articles/...to-Racing.aspx




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post #2 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 04:48 PM
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i love K3...

Quote:
The ability to run fast lap times does not make you a racer; competition makes you a racer.
a great article for people who want to make the jump.

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post #3 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 04:59 PM
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Yeah yeah yeah, we get it.
Racers are better than Track Day Guys.
A fast Track Day Guy is nothing....

Yeah yeah.

K3, I love ya, but this is a tired message, and one that I disagree with.

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post #4 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 05:03 PM
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some good points...

Quote:
Unlike racing, the skill level of track day participants runs the full spectrum.
but this couldn't be farther from the truth. i'll trust anyone in nesba's A group more than the back half of an AM CCS grid. there were 2 guys in my learning curves class that were never on a track... and they left that weekend with a race license.

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post #5 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbizx View Post
some good points...



but this couldn't be farther from the truth. i'll trust anyone in nesba's A group more than the back half of an AM CCS grid. there were 2 guys in my learning curves class that were never on a track... and they left that weekend with a race license.
i have heard this before...good point!

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post #6 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Yeah yeah yeah, we get it.
Racers are better than Track Day Guys.
A fast Track Day Guy is nothing....

Yeah yeah.

K3, I love ya, but this is a tired message, and one that I disagree with.
i didn't think it was saying that they are better.. i think he was stressing the point that it is different. i have heard from others, including myself that just looking at lap times they should be faster than everyone with yellow plates. get them out in a race and they are mid packers and can't get a clean track so they are slow. there are some errors in the article i think (from doing both) as snowbizx said.

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Originally Posted by snowbizx View Post
but this couldn't be farther from the truth. i'll trust anyone in nesba's A group more than the back half of an AM CCS grid. there were 2 guys in my learning curves class that were never on a track... and they left that weekend with a race license.
this is for sure, some people in the far back scared me when i would come back around to lap them, i would just grit my teeth and go by them with such speed that i would be out of harms way in no time.

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post #7 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catwlights View Post
Wait.

I thought most pro racers never did track days. I thought track days were just for personal improvement, not training for racing.

Man, I swear, the longer I ride, the more I realize that I don't know squat about it.
A lot of AMA riders do track days, for that matter a lot of them are NESBA CRs.

And you want a wide range of skills? Enter a 600 amateur race. It ranges from guys that have NEVER done a track day or been in a race, to guys that run 11's at Blackhawk.

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post #8 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
A lot of AMA riders do track days, for that matter a lot of them are NESBA CRs.

And you want a wide range of skills? Enter a 600 amateur race. It ranges from guys that have NEVER done a track day or been in a race, to guys that run 11's at Blackhawk.
I deleted my post because I realized that the article was on par with what I thought. I pretty much agree with what is all said.

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post #9 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
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track days vs racing remind me of a movie that HDtony quotes me alot...

days of thunder

cole sets good lap times, but can't play in traffic and sucks.

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post #10 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 07:38 PM
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So, are you saying that track day riders can't navigate traffic?

Some of the worst & most dangerous track day riders I ever see are CCS racers.

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post #11 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 07:41 PM
 
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Um, I wrote the article. With the exception of a few select races, I've been a trackday coach since the end of the 2003 season and run an Emag devoted to track days. I said specifically in the article that there is no dishonor in remaining a trackday rider. For many, many reasons, this is the wiser choice for a lot of folks.

If trackdays are great fun with motorcycles in a safe, social setting, then how are addicted, bloody-eyed racers better than trackday riders? I never said that. I've been both and there is a reason that I do trackdays now and mostly avoid racing. I like to have fun on my motorcycle and at a cretain point for some competitors, racing stops being fun and becomes war.

I would never give back my years in racing. I raced two weeks ago and will race again but will never go back to letting it control my life. This article was not meant to be a judgement on anyone. It was merely a warning. The moral? Follow your dreams but do so with your eyes wide open.

Wink! Thanks for pointing out this thread to me!
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post #12 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 07:47 PM
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a tad on the offensive side no?

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post #13 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackdayMag View Post

Wink! Thanks for pointing out this thread to me!
Thanks for jumping in here Chris! We need more of your presence on this board.

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post #14 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 08:01 PM
 
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post #15 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 08:05 PM
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True dat

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post #16 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 08:16 PM
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post #17 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 09:29 PM

 
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Seems to be the old school racers mentality to me. Yes it's different. The goal is different. The adrenalin is a little different. The costs are way different. But just because someone doesn't race doesn't mean they aren't competitive or shouldn't be called a competitor. You can do trackdays, establish a good pace, and still not be a racer. Just because your gridded up and being timed doesn't make you a different person. To say that the thrill of winning a wood plaque and a picture on a podium could be the difference of what makes you a racer is just false. If you don't have anyone else running your pace, fast or not. Your not racing. Your turning timed laps. Racing occurs when you ride with others of similar skills. You can be faster then anyone else gridded up but have no clue of race craft. The art of setting up passes. Watching a riders technique and capitalizing on his downfalls. Using this knowledge and experience to make your offensive move at a time where you give yourself an advantage that will help you win a race. That's racing. If you just wait for the straight and drive by someone, there's little skill in that. If they can't keep up with you to challenge you again, there's no racing there. When you need to adjust for the situation and make a pass with your head, your a racer. Racing is the act of getting out there and being competitive. Being a racer is a mindset that comes with mental skill, riding skill, and experience that is put together in a package. Whether or not your competitive within your class is another thing all together.

Heck I'm more comfortable running bar end to bar end in a trackday A group session then any amateur race grid. I believe that trackdays should be the spring board to racing. For many, getting a license Saturday and racing Sunday is a great idea. For 90% of the riders it just silly. They just don't have the skills or knowledge to be safe. You can't develop quickly and safely if you don't even have an idea where your strengths, weaknesses and limits are.

It's a good write up Chris. There is a lot of good information in there. But the “us and them” trackday rider vs. racer mentality just confuses me. There is so much overlap between the two. So many people do both. They're different in function, but the thrills, risks and rewards are very similar.

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post #18 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 09:39 PM
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Well written Greg, thanks.

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post #19 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 10:23 PM
 
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That was actually a really good read, the part about the plates and screws really hit home with me.
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post #20 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 11:04 PM
 
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Greg,
Your description of what it is to be a racer is dead accurate. Not to be inflamatory but haven't I stood through a hundred trackday riders meetings where they emphasize that what you wrote is exactly the wrong attitude to have at a trackday?
Yes, an amateur grid is a frightening place to be. I'll buy your statement that many A group riders are at a higher skill level than many amateur racers. I would however like to think that the riders in the A group won't be stuffing, block passing and possibly even making contact.
I've run hard against trusted friends at trackdays but if it comes to making that truly bloodthirsty pass, I won't do it and neither will they. Plus that, if we run up on traffic, it's game suspended until we find a polite way around the slower rider. None of this is the case in a race.
The awesome Marshal Skloss created a huge controversy while writing for Roadracing World when he tried to describe the difference in mentality between trackday riding and racing. It was unfortunate that his most enticing article came out right on the heels of a few highly public racing incidents (not involving Skloss) where it was percieved that one rider had deliberatly taken another out in order to win. Suddenly, by virtue of what he'd written, Marshal was undeservedly the poster boy for overly agressive racing. (I'll admit that I was one of his internet persecutors then and am not exactly proud of it now....)
Honestly, I've been off course a few times and crashed once avoiding trackday riders who did something unpredictable. In those cases, it was my responsability as the faster trackday rider to make the polite pass and I got too agressive, so I chose to take actions less favorable to myself in order to spare the other rider. In a race, I'd have been less generous.
At a trackday rider's meeting, you are specifically instructed not to pull agressive, full race passes. in a race, you are expected to pass that way. If you wanted to draw an "Us and Them" line, that would be it.

Last edited by TrackdayMag; 11-03-2009 at 11:11 PM.
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post #21 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 11:19 PM
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It seams like a couple people who have never raced have a lot to say.

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post #22 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 11:27 PM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
It seams like a couple people who have never raced have a lot to say.

If you are referring to Greg...he has raced.

If you are referring to Wink...he hasn't roadraced...but he has plenty of racing underneath his belt....he should...isn't he like 70?

If your not referring to either of these guys...carry on...I apologize for the interruption.

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post #23 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
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If you are referring to Greg...he has raced.

If you are referring to Wink...he hasn't roadraced...but he has plenty of racing underneath his belt....he should...isn't he like 70?

If your not referring to either of these guys...carry on...I apologize for the interruption.
I didn't know Greg Raced. Wink should race one weekend. He can smop up the amatuer field on Saturday and then protest for the bump to Expert for Sunday and then smop everybody up in the Expert field to.

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post #24 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-03-2009, 11:59 PM
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i think the article is being taken a little out of context... remember it's "making the switch from tds to racing" and not "which is better?".

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post #25 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 12:00 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Wink should race one weekend. .....then protest for the bump to Expert for Sunday and then smop everybody up in the Expert field to.
Shoot...why not just have him start in World Superbike?

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post #26 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 12:06 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
I didn't know Greg Raced.

Personally, I have never known Greg to just jump in a conversation he knows nothing about or has no first hand experience at...he also brings up some good points...so if he is bringing value to the conversation...does it matter if he has or hasn't raced?

I also know that when he DID race...he did so with all his fairings on the bike intact and properly fastened.

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post #27 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 12:42 AM
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i think greg and chris are both pretty much dead on. they're just talking about 2 different things, that's all. there's really only a small part of the article he actually disagrees with. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think some people are more offended by the general attitude of the article and not the basic content of it.

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post #28 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRECAT View Post
Personally, I have never known Greg to just jump in a conversation he knows nothing about or has no first hand experience at...he also brings up some good points...so if he is bringing value to the conversation...does it matter if he has or hasn't raced?

I also know that when he DID race...he did so with all his fairings on the bike intact and properly fastened.
yup, I remember him racing thru the bus stop, not sure about the fairings though.
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post #29 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
I didn't know Greg Raced. Wink should race one weekend. He can smop up the amatuer field on Saturday and then protest for the bump to Expert for Sunday and then smop everybody up in the Expert field to.
Thanks Nick, I appreciate the sentiment. But these days, with guys circulating in the 9s, I wouldn't even podium in an Expert race. Blume and Hix are down there, and they spent the money, the time and effort to get there. Props to them, they are both better riders for the change. But you know what, they were both great riders before they went racing, as a matter of fact, they were better than most any amateur racers out there.

Maybe if they had a Formula 50 I'd consider racing, or better yet, 4 hour, 6 hour or 8 endurance solo or team racing. But with 4 daughters, I really have little interest fighting through turn one side by side with people that I don't know. I'm happy to go bar to bar and a little push and lean with people that I do know, as we all know, that is a total blast.

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post #30 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-04-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoparBoyy View Post
i love K3...



a great article for people who want to make the jump.


No shit, in track days there's no run to turn one 5 wide from the start...hairy!

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