So, I got a ticket in the mail - QUESTION for y'all... - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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So, I got a ticket in the mail - QUESTION for y'all...

They setup one of the camera units on an intersection of Route 59 just north of my house in Aurora. I make a right on red and then get a ticket in the mail for $100.

The pic on the ticket shows the back of my car and my tag number. The ticket states the registered owner of the vehicle is responsible for the ticket. There is no proof of who was driving the car at the time, since the pic only shows the tag.

Is it true that the registered owner of the vehicle is responsible for fines incurred from traffic violations? I always understood that the driver was responsible.

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post #2 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:49 PM
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That's right. They ticket the owner. I know about that camera at IL-59 and North Aurora road ... I drive out of my way to avoid it.

Seriously ... like Naperville needs more $$$ ... gimme a break.

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post #3 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:50 PM
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Yup, it's yours and it sucks. Don't waste your time trying to fight it, they WILL get their money. Cough of the 100 bucks and be done with it

Take it to the STREETS!
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post #4 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:52 PM
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revenue generation at it's finest. Your a "red light runner"!!




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post #5 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:52 PM
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Was it a legal right on red? I know if you're going EB on N Aurora Rd and turning SB onto 59 you have to wait for the light to change to turn. Every other right turn isn't like that, right?

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post #6 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:53 PM
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Red Light Runner!!!




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post #7 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:54 PM
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Yep, it's a crock. Fight it and more than likely they'll furnish a picture of you anyways.

Like so many "laws", this whole thing is merely a tax of sorts.

Tom

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post #8 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:54 PM
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Food for thought found elsewhere on the web...

Quote:
Originally Posted by a little bird from California

If you're like me, you have had at least one citation for the lack of a front plate and you still have no intention of affixing it. We all know why this farce of a law is enforced, red light cameras of course.

I'm no lawyer, but I say here oh my brothers and sisters that the legal loophole is large enough to drive a truck [through]. Scroll down for more.


1. I'll make the largest point first and then trickle down to the other details. A red light camera captures a moving violation. The ticket you receive in the mail is an UNsigned contract where you did NOT sign the "promise to appear" line. The refusal to sign at a traffic stop to promise to appear will grant you a free trip to jail. The contract is not valid. I did not promise to appear, so I won't appear.

2. The accusation comes regular mail. No certification, signature or otherwise. Therefor, there is no proof you have received it. That's it for the legality, now on to the other details to ponder:

3. If you take the time to notice, you will find that at least some of the intersections in question display a yellow light that is a FULL second shorter than those without a camera. This is highly suspect of revenue padding.

4. These cameras are sold by a vendor: Redflex who has a say to where they are placed, and gets a piece of the pie. They are in it for money, not safety.L.A. red light cameras clicking for safety or revenue? - Los Angeles Times

5. The city makes over $11,430,000 a year on these violations. Easy money.

FAQ:
-So, I got one of these tickets. What do I do? Throw it away. I have been fortunate enough to not get one of these, but one of my poorer friends did and upon my advice, it went away like a [email protected] in the wind. If I get one, I will probably frame it.

-But what about when my registration is due, then what? If they cannot provide a document of the incident with your signature (because it does not exist), then they have no grounds for punishment or action.

-But I went in to protest the ticket and I lost, wtf? I'll bet when you went in, the FIRST thing they had you do is sign the ticket. Please refer to #1 at the top. Once you sign, they got your family vegetables.

-They sent me a threat and I'm scared, what do I do? They are doing the minimum to scare you out of your cash and that's all the energy they can muster. If they don't know that you got the original ticket, how do they know you got the follow-up threat? They don't and it has no merit.

In conclusion:
The fact is that 30,000 people a year DO pay these tickets and they will not bother to go after a few who know the truth. How many of you have ever been fined or jailed for skipping out on jury duty as threatened? So why would you subject yourself to $300+ fines, higher insurance and traffic school? I rest my case.

Disclaimer:
I'm not a lawyer and I don't encourage you run yellow or red lights. If you decide to put your plate on, don't be scared of this farce. I also encourage you to serve jury duty if called. I was nearly killed by a city bus and was vindicated by the good people who didn't skip out. Cleared in a government court against a city agency - sweet justice.

Take it to the STREETS!
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post #9 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRZ View Post
Food for thought found elsewhere on the web...
Hmmm...

This post makes a lot of sense. If I choose to not pay, there is a $100 late fee in addition to the $100 fine.

Not sure on this one.

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post #10 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:00 PM
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youre on the hook unfortunately

and the ticket is paid to a revenue dept not the cops totally BS

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post #11 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:01 PM
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If you were not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, notifying in writing the local law enforcement agency that issued the Uniform Traffic Citation of the number of the Uniform Traffic Citation received and the name and address of the person operating the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If you fail to so notify in writing the local law enforcement agency of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, you may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense."

(d-2) If the registered owner of the vehicle was not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, and if the registered owner notifies the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction shall then issue a written Uniform Traffic Citation to the person alleged by the registered owner to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If the registered owner fails to notify in writing the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the registered owner may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense.

625 ILCS 5/11-1201.1

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post #12 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:03 PM
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Next time stop.

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post #13 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:03 PM
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Dont pay it Ron! Stop disobeying the law too!!!
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post #14 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If you were not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, notifying in writing the local law enforcement agency that issued the Uniform Traffic Citation of the number of the Uniform Traffic Citation received and the name and address of the person operating the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If you fail to so notify in writing the local law enforcement agency of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, you may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense."

(d-2) If the registered owner of the vehicle was not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, and if the registered owner notifies the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction shall then issue a written Uniform Traffic Citation to the person alleged by the registered owner to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If the registered owner fails to notify in writing the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the registered owner may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense.

625 ILCS 5/11-1201.1

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post #15 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Next time stop.
Thats the problem with these he probably did stop, but didnt stop before the white line which is usually well before the corner.

normal practice for making a turn on red around here is to pull up to the intersection, stop, look both ways and continue on.

Even though you stopped like your supposed too, your still considered one of those unsafe hooligans blowing red lights that they use as examples to make these cameras seem acceptable in the eyes of the public. Why, becasue your front wheels didnt stop on or before the white line. It's a crock of shit, but its how the villiages are making a killing off of all these cameras. then the statistics come out and it's reported that all of these people are "running" red lights. B mufukkin S!




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post #16 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
Thats the problem with these he probably did stop, but didnt stop before the white line which is usually well before the corner.

normal practice for making a turn on red around here is to pull up to the intersection, stop, look both ways and continue on.

Even though you stopped like your supposed too, your still considered one of those unsafe hooligans blowing red lights that they use as examples to make these cameras seem acceptable in the eyes of the public. Why, becasue your front wheels didnt stop on or before the white line. It's a crock of shit, but its how the villiages are making a killing off of all these cameras. then the statistics come out and it's reported that all of these people are "running" red lights. B mufukkin S!

Then you did not stop.

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post #17 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:19 PM
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Rob

I thought they got around all of that by not counting it as a moving violation
no points..
they are treating it like a traffic ticket..
or so i thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If you were not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, notifying in writing the local law enforcement agency that issued the Uniform Traffic Citation of the number of the Uniform Traffic Citation received and the name and address of the person operating the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If you fail to so notify in writing the local law enforcement agency of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, you may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense."

(d-2) If the registered owner of the vehicle was not the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, and if the registered owner notifies the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction shall then issue a written Uniform Traffic Citation to the person alleged by the registered owner to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense. If the registered owner fails to notify in writing the local law enforcement agency having jurisdiction of the name and address of the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense, the registered owner may be presumed to have been the operator of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offense.

625 ILCS 5/11-1201.1
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post #18 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Then you did not stop.
at the line. unfortunatly no one stops at the line because its become accepted practice over the years to stop at the "actual" intersection where you can see the traffic you will be crossing. stopping twice should not be mandatory. one stop, at the intersection should be sufficient




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post #19 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Hmmm...

This post makes a lot of sense. If I choose to not pay, there is a $100 late fee in addition to the $100 fine.

Not sure on this one.

Well ... if I'm not willing to pay $100, then I would not be wiling to pay $200 ... or $300 ... $400 ...

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post #20 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gconsier View Post
Rob

I thought they got around all of that by not counting it as a moving violation
no points..
they are treating it like a traffic ticket..
or so i thought.
That seems to be the case.

Quote:
(h) The court or hearing officer may consider in defense of a violation:

(1) that the motor vehicle or registration plates of the motor vehicle were stolen before the violation occurred and not under the control of or in the possession of the owner at the time of the violation;

(2) that the driver of the vehicle passed through the intersection when the light was red either (i) in order to yield the right-of-way to an emergency vehicle or (ii) as part of a funeral procession; and

(3) any other evidence or issues provided by municipal or county ordinance.

(i) To demonstrate that the motor vehicle or the registration plates were stolen before the violation occurred and were not under the control or possession of the owner at the time of the violation, the owner must submit proof that a report concerning the stolen motor vehicle or registration plates was filed with a law enforcement agency in a timely manner.

(j) Unless the driver of the motor vehicle received a Uniform Traffic Citation from a police officer at the time of the violation, the motor vehicle owner is subject to a civil penalty not exceeding $ 100, plus an additional penalty of not more than $ 100 for failure to pay the original penalty in a timely manner, if the motor vehicle is recorded by an automated traffic law enforcement system. A violation for which a civil penalty is imposed under this Section is not a violation of a traffic regulation governing the movement of vehicles and may not be recorded on the driving record of the owner of the vehicle.

(k) An intersection equipped with an automated traffic law enforcement system must be posted with a sign visible to approaching traffic indicating that the intersection is being monitored by an automated traffic law enforcement system.

(l) The compensation paid for an automated traffic law enforcement system must be based on the value of the equipment or the services provided and may not be based on the number of traffic citations issued or the revenue generated by the system.

625 ILCS 5/11-208.6
I'm researching it further right now.

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post #21 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:33 PM
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post #22 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:41 PM
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Nice find!

Take it to the STREETS!
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post #23 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:44 PM
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shoulda kept up your corner speed and stuffed the guy ahead of you before the light turned red

I have nothing of value to add to this, just thought a little humor might help.

Good luck Ron,
I agree it's BS and is just another way to get TAXED.


"D"

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post #24 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
revenue generation at it's finest. Your a "red light runner"!!
They had one by SOW that generated almost a mill. in a few months till it was turned off because people were refusing to go to the mall again.

About the light on 59, If you fight it remember the end of last year they removed there two cameras because they never worked. These are new and if it is the same vender as the others may not work right.
With the bad economy these are making up for other losses the villages are seeing, (safety my @ss)
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post #25 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohfugit View Post
shoulda kept up your corner speed and stuffed the guy ahead of you before the light turned red

I have nothing of value to add to this, just thought a little humor might help.

Good luck Ron,
I agree it's BS and is just another way to get TAXED.


"D"
I have to go through one of thse every day on my way to work (belmont and lsd) I watch it snap off and take a picture just about every lane change... I make sure I leave an opening in front of me going into it and I practically slide into the intersection sideways (invariably you have to stop at the LSD ramp and sit there)

I haven't gotten a ticket (that i saw) for being stuck.. but I have had it take my picture ... which is a total crock.. you can move into that intersection as first car on a green light.. get half way through.. and stop.. wait for the entire duration of the light.. and when it changes the damn thing flashes a picture of you.
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post #26 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:59 PM
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here is the process. the camera takes a pic of the "violation" and 10 secs total of the incident is recorded. this picture and recording is reviewed by the camera vendor and then sent to the pd. from there the pic and video is again reviewed by an ofc (in our case a traffic section ofc) for validity. if both the vendor and ofc who review to violation see that it is legit a ticket is issued to the reg owner. there should be a website address in with the info you got with the ticket where you can watch the video for yourself.

tickets are $100 instead of the regular IVC $75 fine for the same violation and is handled by the city and not dupage/will/kane/kendall etc. if you want to contest the ticket there should be info with it describing the process of going to a set date administrative hearing where everyone else will be there for the same reason.

you can't just not pay the ticket or else it will go to collections and screw up your credit, however since these are administrative tickets there is no hit on your DL status, etc.

they aren't kidding with this in 'thrill. if we get a ticket with one of these cameras while on duty we take a day suspension.

Last edited by Muskrat; 03-04-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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post #27 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:01 PM
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I swear I've read this before Muskrat, did you copy and paste?
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post #28 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
I swear I've read this before Muskrat, did you copy and paste?
maybe... but then the same question may have been asked too. just tryin' to be of some help
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post #29 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSkoolMC View Post
http://www.chicago-red-light-ticket-...egal_arguments

Read the actual laws on the bottom of this page.

Good luck.
Stupid.


The red light cams prompt a civil fine, not a criminal offense. The guy that wrote that site keeps talking about "beyond reasonable doubt" but thats the not the standard of proof for civil cases.

And he doesn't even cite to the applicable law which is 625 ILCS 5/11-208.6
Quote:
625 ILCS 5/11-208.6. Automated traffic law enforcement system


Sec. 11-208.6. Automated traffic law enforcement system. (a) As used in this Section, "automated traffic law enforcement system" means a device with one or more motor vehicle sensors working in conjunction with a red light signal to produce recorded images of motor vehicles entering an intersection against a red signal indication in violation of Section 11-306 of this Code [625 ILCS 5/11-306] or a similar provision of a local ordinance.

An automated traffic law enforcement system is a system, in a municipality or county operated by a governmental agency, that produces a recorded image of a motor vehicle's violation of a provision of this Code or a local ordinance and is designed to obtain a clear recorded image of the vehicle and the vehicle's license plate. The recorded image must also display the time, date, and location of the violation.

(b) As used in this Section, "recorded images" means images recorded by an automated traffic law enforcement system on:

(1) 2 or more photographs;

(2) 2 or more microphotographs;

(3) 2 or more electronic images; or

(4) a video recording showing the motor vehicle and, on at least one image or portion of the recording, clearly identifying the registration plate number of the motor vehicle.

(c) A county or municipality, including a home rule county or municipality, may not use an automated traffic law enforcement system to provide recorded images of a motor vehicle for the purpose of recording its speed. The regulation of the use of automated traffic law enforcement systems to record vehicle speeds is an exclusive power and function of the State. This subsection (c) is a denial and limitation of home rule powers and functions under subsection (h) of Section 6 of Article VII of the Illinois Constitution [920 ILCS 7/6].

(d) For each violation of a provision of this Code or a local ordinance recorded by an automatic traffic law enforcement system, the county or municipality having jurisdiction shall issue a written notice of the violation to the registered owner of the vehicle as the alleged violator. The notice shall be delivered to the registered owner of the vehicle, by mail, within 30 days after the Secretary of State notifies the municipality or county of the identity of the owner of the vehicle, but in no event later than 90 days after the violation.

The notice shall include:

(1) the name and address of the registered owner of the vehicle;

(2) the registration number of the motor vehicle involved in the violation;

(3) the violation charged;

(4) the location where the violation occurred;

(5) the date and time of the violation;

(6) a copy of the recorded images;

(7) the amount of the civil penalty imposed and the date by which the civil penalty should be paid;

(8) a statement that recorded images are evidence of a violation of a red light signal;

(9) a warning that failure to pay the civil penalty or to contest liability in a timely manner is an admission of liability and may result in a suspension of the driving privileges of the registered owner of the vehicle; and

(10) a statement that the person may elect to proceed by:

(A) paying the fine; or

(B) challenging the charge in court, by mail, or by administrative hearing.

(e) If a person charged with a traffic violation, as a result of an automated traffic law enforcement system, does not pay or successfully contest the civil penalty resulting from that violation, the Secretary of State shall suspend the driving privileges of the registered owner of the vehicle under Section 6-306.5 of this Code [625 ILCS 5/11-6-306.5] for failing to pay any fine or penalty due and owing as a result of 5 violations of the automated traffic law enforcement system.

(f) Based on inspection of recorded images produced by an automated traffic law enforcement system, a notice alleging that the violation occurred shall be evidence of the facts contained in the notice and admissible in any proceeding alleging a violation under this Section.

(g) Recorded images made by an automatic traffic law enforcement system are confidential and shall be made available only to the alleged violator and governmental and law enforcement agencies for purposes of adjudicating a violation of this Section, for statistical purposes, or for other governmental purposes. Any recorded image evidencing a violation of this Section, however, may be admissible in any proceeding resulting from the issuance of the citation.

(h) The court or hearing officer may consider in defense of a violation:

(1) that the motor vehicle or registration plates of the motor vehicle were stolen before the violation occurred and not under the control of or in the possession of the owner at the time of the violation;

(2) that the driver of the vehicle passed through the intersection when the light was red either (i) in order to yield the right-of-way to an emergency vehicle or (ii) as part of a funeral procession; and

(3) any other evidence or issues provided by municipal or county ordinance.

(i) To demonstrate that the motor vehicle or the registration plates were stolen before the violation occurred and were not under the control or possession of the owner at the time of the violation, the owner must submit proof that a report concerning the stolen motor vehicle or registration plates was filed with a law enforcement agency in a timely manner.

(j) Unless the driver of the motor vehicle received a Uniform Traffic Citation from a police officer at the time of the violation, the motor vehicle owner is subject to a civil penalty not exceeding $ 100, plus an additional penalty of not more than $ 100 for failure to pay the original penalty in a timely manner, if the motor vehicle is recorded by an automated traffic law enforcement system. A violation for which a civil penalty is imposed under this Section is not a violation of a traffic regulation governing the movement of vehicles and may not be recorded on the driving record of the owner of the vehicle.

(k) An intersection equipped with an automated traffic law enforcement system must be posted with a sign visible to approaching traffic indicating that the intersection is being monitored by an automated traffic law enforcement system.

(l) The compensation paid for an automated traffic law enforcement system must be based on the value of the equipment or the services provided and may not be based on the number of traffic citations issued or the revenue generated by the system.

(m) This Section applies only to the counties of Cook, DuPage, Kane, Lake, Madison, McHenry, St. Clair, and Will and to municipalities located within those counties.

This is the problem when you listen to "internet lawyers"

Attorney-at-Law: Doing my part to contribute to the downfall of western society.
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post #30 of 81 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Stupid.


The red light cams prompt a civil fine, not a criminal offense. The guy that wrote that site keeps talking about "beyond reasonable doubt" but thats the not the standard of proof for civil cases.

And he doesn't even cite to the applicable law which is 625 ILCS 5/11-208.6



This is the problem when you listen to "internet lawyers"
I'll have you know.. I internet lawyered and I was right
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