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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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PSA on LIDAR tickets

http://indianalawblog.com/archives/2..._if_chica.html

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 07:02 PM
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It's interesting what line of BS did they originally use to attack the credibility of LIDAR. Anyone knows?

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 07:24 PM
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Sometimes reading the paper pays off.

From Today.

Quote:
November 6, 2009

BY MARK BROWN Sun-Times Columnist

It was with some fanfare that the Chicago Police Department announced three years ago that all city police districts were being supplied with high-tech LIDAR speed detectors to help crack down on speeders on neighborhood streets.

What nobody has bothered to make public, however, is that for at least the past year, speeding tickets produced by Chicago police officers using LIDAR have been routinely dismissed in Cook County Traffic Court for any defendant bothering to show up to contest the case.
Click to enlarge image
It was with some fanfare that the Chicago Police Department announced three years ago that all city police districts were being supplied with high-tech LIDAR speed detectors to help crack down on speeders on neighborhood streets.
(Brian Jackson/Sun-Times)


RELATED STORIES
Weis: Chicago cops stick to LIDAR guns

The tickets are being voluntarily waived by the city's Law Department because of legal challenges to the laser technology underlying the LIDAR (light detection and ranging) equipment.

The city began taking the approach after Traffic Court judges started ruling in favor of defense attorneys who contend local prosecutors must hold a special hearing to prove the scientific basis behind LIDAR before using it as evidence.
You don't even need a lawyer

This has not kept the city from continuing to accept the guilty pleas -- and cash the checks -- from the vast majority of accused speeders who dispose of their tickets by just mailing in the fine or going to traffic school.

For those who go to court, on the other hand, it's simply a matter of waiting for their name to be called and the judge to hand them back their driver's license, no questions asked and little if any explanation given.

"This is a LIDAR case," an assistant Corporation Counsel told Judge George Scully Jr. one day last week as the next defendant's name was called. With that, Scully pulled the driver's license from the ticket to which it was stapled and returned the license to the defendant, sending her on her way.

I watched this happen again and again without fail during the past week in the courtrooms in the Daley Center basement where minor city traffic cases are heard. Defendants gratefully exited court with wallets intact, most of them clueless about what had transpired.

Occasionally, a judge would say something like "the city cannot meets its burden of proof," by way of explanation before handing over the driver's license.

Some defendants had hired the hallway lawyers who hang around Traffic Court to represent them, not realizing they were receiving the same outcome as those who didn't have a lawyer, except they had to pay the lawyer.

"Hey, I make a living off this stuff," one lawyer told me when I brought it up.

He said he deserves to continue to make money from such clients because he "invented" the defense now being used to squelch all the LIDAR cases -- by citing a Downstate appellate court opinion that was the first to call for a scientific review of the LIDAR technology.

That case actually involved a Naperville lawyer, Michael Canulli, who was driving with his family to a girls' softball tournament in Springfield nine years ago when he was ticketed on I-55 near Lincoln, where State Police had sprung a massive speed trap. Incensed by their tactics, Canulli took the case to court. Now he's cited as the basis for beating every LIDAR ticket in Chicago, which is fine by him.

The courtroom rejections have not deterred Chicago Police from continuing to use LIDAR to bring speeding cases.

"Our job is enforcement. We enforce the laws. . . . If we don't win the case in court, that doesn't stop us from enforcing the laws," said Lt. Dave Blanco, commanding officer in CPD's Traffic Section.

"We know it to be a very reliable speed measuring device," Blanco said of the hand-held LIDAR units, which have been in use here for seven or eight years.
'It'll just get thrown out'

Indeed, there seems little known basis for questioning the reliability of LIDAR. Nobody has been able to cite for me any jurisdiction where the technology has been shown deficient. But the city hasn't gotten around to putting on its own legal case, known as a Frye hearing.

A Law Department spokesman said one of the problems is that -- in the cases where it has called a defendant's bluff and agreed to a Frye hearing -- the defendant gives up rather than put up a huge legal fight over a little speeding ticket.

Not all speeding tickets written in Chicago involve LIDAR. Tickets issued based on the reading from traditional radar devices are not being routinely dismissed.

If you're wondering if this applies to you, speeding tickets issued in Chicago have three boxes to check to indicate whether police used LIDAR, radar or laser. Some experts say LIDAR and laser are the same thing.

Judge Walter Williams, supervising judge in Municipal Traffic Court, said he couldn't discuss the situation, which I think is nonsense, but he's the judge.

One Chicago Police officer told me what really gets him irritated is when he hands speeding tickets to drivers who know the score with LIDAR and they only scoff at him: "It'll just get thrown out."

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 08:27 PM
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It's interesting what line of BS did they originally use to attack the credibility of LIDAR. Anyone knows?
Failure to hold a hearing under Frye v. United States to determine whether LIDAR is a generally, scientifically accepted method of speed measurement. Not that LIDAR is bogus, but nobody's actually proven it's valid to the courts yet.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrand View Post
Failure to hold a hearing under Frye v. United States to determine whether LIDAR is a generally, scientifically accepted method of speed measurement. Not that LIDAR is bogus, but nobody's actually proven it's valid to the courts yet.
Nice... That's why I can never be a lawyer

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 10:47 PM
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Fuck the motherfucking police.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-06-2009, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-07-2009, 12:04 AM
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I recently recieved a ticket for 75 in a 55 on i55. Trooper claimed he had me at 82, but after asking he knocked it down for me I checked the ticket, and it does not state how he figured I was doing those speeds. He came up super fastand lit me up right away, so I do not think he was pacing me. Sadly, it is cheaper to pay the ticket than have to miss the day of work. Bastards.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-07-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob S Preston, Esq. View Post
It's not what ya know, it's what ya can prove.
True enough and, furthermore, it's getting the chance to prove it. It doesn't seem to help the City that nobody wants to pay the $2k+ to have the (pretty much hopeless) Frye hearing over a $225 ticket.

BTW, you still 711, or did you get sworn in and I missed it?

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-07-2009, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrand View Post
True enough and, furthermore, it's getting the chance to prove it. It doesn't seem to help the City that nobody wants to pay the $2k+ to have the (pretty much hopeless) Frye hearing over a $225 ticket.

BTW, you still 711, or did you get sworn in and I missed it?
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You know a heckuva lot of law for an EE

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob S Preston, Esq. View Post
Indiana bar in February.

You know a heckuva lot of law for an EE
It's a hobby, which means I get to study just the interesting parts (like this) and skip the dull parts.

Good luck in advance on the bar.

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 12:26 PM
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Sun Times is reporting today that a case working its way through the system that will probably be used as the Frye hearing case for LIDAR.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/1...rown08.article
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 08:27 AM

 
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Talking

where can I read about the "Frye" hearing details......I think it might be my son

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-12-2009, 08:29 PM
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Oh, all right, here you go.

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-12-2009, 11:50 PM
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I'd love to know how this affects troppers bouncing their laser off their sideview mirrors to nab cars coming up behind them as well. I saw another one doing that today on 55




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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
I'd love to know how this affects troppers bouncing their laser off their sideview mirrors to nab cars coming up behind them as well. I saw another one doing that today on 55
It doesn't.

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-2009, 10:37 AM
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Looks like the City's decided to go play ball again. Oops.

LIDAR speeder? Your free pass got revoked -- Mark Brown

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-2009, 05:39 PM

 
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Fuck the motherfucking police.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-2009, 05:47 PM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrand View Post
Failure to hold a hearing under Frye v. United States to determine whether LIDAR is a generally, scientifically accepted method of speed measurement. Not that LIDAR is bogus, but nobody's actually proven it's valid to the courts yet.

Everyone needs to understand how things of this nature work. the tickets are not STATE tickets rather its a state violation that the city covers under local ordinance. I can not confirm that, but it is a common practice. the city then tells officers to write the city version of the ticket over the state version because the city gets a larger portion of the revenue which Im sure goes to a general fund and the PD never sees it.

Ok, that said the city lawyers say use LIDAR unless challenged. when challenged we'll drop it since the technology isn't "proven" to a court standard besides we bought 100 of these things (lidar) and have no other use for them. Until the time comes that some one takes the city to court over this issue it will continue. But who has the time or energy to sue over a 100 tkt?

and the wheels on the bus go round and round....

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-02-2009, 04:06 PM
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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 10:26 PM
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Update:

The jig is up. In a decision filed January 15 (People v. Mann), the 2nd district appellate court upheld LIDAR's admissibility as evidence of speed.

The defendant in the case, Jack Mann, was ticketed in DuPage County for speeding 80 mph in a 55 mph zone on I-88. He was convicted in a bench trial in DuPage county, after objecting to the State's use of the LIDAR reading as evidence against him, claiming the principle behind it had not yet been proven to be generally accepted in the scientific community. Circuit judge Elizabeth Sexton overruled his objection, referring to another DuPage county case (under judge Bruce Kelsey) where LIDAR had been reviewed and accepted. Mr. Mann appealed from that decision.

In his written opinion, appellate Justice McLaren referred to a 2003 Illinois appellate case, People v. Canulli, in which LIDAR evidence was found inadmissible. Justice McLaren rejected this decision, however, and referred instead to cases from Maryland and New Jersey, concluding, "In our view, these decisions are ample authority that the use of LIDAR to measure the speed of moving vehicles is based on generally accepted scientific principles. Therefore, the trial court did not err in overruling defendant's objection to the evidence."

There's no word yet from the Sun-Times, who seem to have broken the story back in November on LIDAR tickets getting tossed, but it seems very likely that the City's not going to have to fight very hard at all now to get LIDAR formally accepted in the local courts. It's fair to say the free ride is over, at least where the State's Attorney has been paying attention to the issue.

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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Judge Sexton is a tough one. Argued a case in front of her once. Very good, very fair judge. Knows her stuff.


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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 10:46 PM
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"was ticketed in Will County for speeding 80 mph in a 55 mph zone on I-88. "

I-88 does not run through Will County... it runs through DuPage.

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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
"was ticketed in Will County for speeding 80 mph in a 55 mph zone on I-88. "

I-88 does not run through Will County... it runs through DuPage.
which is why it was tried in DuPage.

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-29-2010, 07:51 AM
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please recall this post when you dial 911 for assistance...
Your kidding right You call 911 after things have gone to hell in a hand basket! The police rarely do what their mottos's proclaim, they rarely, if ever serve me, and I never depend on them for protection. Anyone who does is naive and foolish. Their motto should be To Harass and Ticket.

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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-29-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RickC1957 View Post
Your kidding right You call 911 after things have gone to hell in a hand basket! The police rarely do what their mottos's proclaim, they rarely, if ever serve me, and I never depend on them for protection. Anyone who does is naive and foolish. Their motto should be To Harass and Ticket.
Welcome to America.
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-29-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickC1957 View Post
Your kidding right You call 911 after things have gone to hell in a hand basket! The police rarely do what their mottos's proclaim, they rarely, if ever serve me, and I never depend on them for protection. Anyone who does is naive and foolish. Their motto should be To Harass and Ticket.
It's been awhile since we had a "Rick bashing the police" post. Glad to have you back.

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-29-2010, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
"was ticketed in Will County for speeding 80 mph in a 55 mph zone on I-88. "

I-88 does not run through Will County... it runs through DuPage.
Duh, thank you. Doesn't even say Will County in the actual decision. Post corrected.

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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-29-2010, 10:38 PM
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