First Bike, 600cc - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Kiecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 906
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Sportbike: '09 Yamaha R15, '07 BWM X-Challenge, '05 SV650, (2) '00 VFR, '84 RZ350
Years Riding: 14
How you found us: Speedzilla
 
First Bike, 600cc

Mods you might want to sticky this thread. This should be recommended reading for all new riders.

Taken from Beginner Riders Forum that doesn't seem to be working:

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Quote:
Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

Introduction

Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

False Logic

On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

Vanity Arguments

The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

I want something that's modern and stylish.

I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

You Be The Judge

I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around.

I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers.

"and yes, I will be serving strawberry shortcake right out of my bikini bottoms. just come on by with a spoon and scoop it out of my ass crack." ill_ag

"Why would I beat someone with a pillow when all I really want is dirty coochy?" ill_ag
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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Kiecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 906
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Sportbike: '09 Yamaha R15, '07 BWM X-Challenge, '05 SV650, (2) '00 VFR, '84 RZ350
Years Riding: 14
How you found us: Speedzilla
 
Part 2:

Quote:
Form Equals Function: Part Two

In Part One of this article, we covered a lot of the excuses that new riders give for wanting to start on a 600cc sportbike. This second half finishes off our discussion of this reasoning and discusses why high-powered sport machines are not the ideal beginner machine.

False Logic Completed

Last month, we covered many of the reasons new riders give to justify why they want or should get a 600cc sportbike. Now we finish with the last and most common excuses given.
I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

This is what I call the "I'm responsible and mature" argument. This one is a general excuse and does not apply to sportbikes in particular.

Recent studies have shown that 90% of all drivers feel that they have average to above-driving abilities compared to other drivers on the road. These drivers also said that they think 60% of those on the road are less skilled than they are. It's an interesting perception as it indicates a mentality that everyone else is sub-par, not you. Obviously someone has to be wrong because the percentages just don't add up.

A proper attitude towards driving as well as riding is essential. But these same drivers who see themselves as superior also engage in dangerous driving habits (aggressive weaving, illegal passing, bad merges, following too close, lack of attention to traffic/road conditions, etc). Very few drivers are truly honest with themselves and their ability to handle a vehicle.

The problem is, on a bike, the perception that you are responsible is not enough. On a bike, you must be. You either learn to be or you are going to be in trouble really quick. In talking with other riders I have found that they tend to be much more defensive and thoughtful drivers behind the wheel because riding raises their perception of their surroundings.

Ultimately, responsible and mature does not equate to riding skill. It has nothing to do with it except how you will approach riding in general. You want to know the sign of a responsible rider? Look at their gear. Are they in full safety gear? Watch them ride. If you are seeing them turn their heads to clear their blind spots, making careful and smooth maneuvers, leaving a nice, safe amount space around them and working to maximize your chance of seeing and knowing what they are doing, then you are looking at a responsible rider.

Now do the same exercise and watch the drivers around you. How many turn their heads to check their blind spots, signal lane changes, leaving several car lengths of space in front of them, weave in and out of traffic or dash to the end of a ramp and then attempt to force themselves onto the highway rather than yield like they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet it's not going to be a pretty significant percentage. Now imagine these same individuals on a bike. I'm sure you'll be able to spot more than a few of these types on bikes to (just look for the T-shirts and flip-flops as they blast by you at 100mph on the Interstate on the right).

How you approach the task of driving is how you will approach riding. Attention to the task of riding is the number one way you avoid trouble by not getting into it in the first place. Study your own driving habits. Good habits will definitely keep your chances of getting into trouble but they have little to do with controlling a motorcycle. Any motorcycle. Many lax drivers often become much better drivers as the result of riding a motorcycle. It is far less common for it to go in the other direction.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Of all the excuses and justifications, this one is my personal favorite. It is in the top three most common excuses given and it shows a complete and utter lack of motorcycle knowledge. It is a statement made out of naivety rather than ignorance.

Most of the folks who make this statement own fast cars (Corvette, Mustang, Acura, modified Civic, etc) or think they do. The belief is that if you can drive fast in a car you can handle a bike that can go fast. I would argue unless these folks race cars on weekends, driving a car that can go fast does not make them a experienced high-speed driver. And for those that do understand how to handle a car at high speed, it gives you knowledge of braking and traction but even that knowledge is useless for one simple reason:

Bikes are not cars.

Braking, traction control, acceleration and handling are totally different on a motorcycle. Cars do not lean. Bikes do. When bikes lean, it changes the part of the tire contacting the ground (the contact patch/ring) and changes the stability and dynamics of the bike from moment to moment. The physics of motorcycle control are in a league of their own. Even the ability to race cars will not give you instant godhood on a motorcycle.

Are you aware that a racing motorcycle (any 600cc supersport made today basically) when it is turning is touching the ground with an amount of rubber equal to a couple of postage stamps? The same applies to any street bike at deep lean angles except they don't have the advantage of a smooth surface to hold on to or sticky race tires. Now imagine having to control the power and the amount of traction you are getting in that space.

Like being responsible, the ability to handle a car at high speed has nothing to do with handling a fast motorcycle. You are missing two wheels, a cage and a seatbelt on a bike. Turning at 70mph becomes a whole different world on a motorcycle compared to car. Braking is a different experience too. It is fairly hard to stand a car on its front fender if you stomp on the brakes. It can be done with two fingers, a good amount of speed and a moment of panic on a sportbike. The only cars that have brakes equal or better than that of a sportbike built in the last 10 years is a Formula One race car.

The skills to handle the potent combination of acceleration, instant-on power and brakes are best learned on a smaller machine so when you finally get on that ultimate sportbike, you have an idea of what to do and how to handle the machine. Driving a car won't give you that. Only time in the saddle, the more, the better.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

This is probably the number one reason that pops up. However, it isn't so much a reason as an observation. And it is a true one. Every year, lots of new riders go to their local dealerships or scour their local ads and bring home a brand new or used 600cc sportbike. And many of those riders do successfully manage to get through their learning process on these machines.

The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that. Yes, a 600cc down low is a tame if sensitive machine. However, it takes very little twist on the throttle to induce a large jump in rpm's. A brief bump on a pothole with a death grip on the throttle can introduce a 4000rpm jump in the blink of an eye (speaking from personal experience). In an experienced rider's hands, this is alarming but recoverable. A gentle rolloff or a little clutch feathering manages the surge nicely. In the hands of a newbie trying to figure out the best reaction to such a scare, a rapid closeoff or a panic brake is often the result and can get you into trouble very, very quickly.

Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. It is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group".

In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception.

What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up.

Most of the time, we never learn the fate of those riders who start on 600s. Some make it and simply never bother to tell their tales except to friends. Some wind up scaring themselves so badly (by getting out of control or by actually dumping the bike and injuring themselves) that they sell off and never ride again. These types can be found. Just troll the ads for new supersports with one owner and low miles. The worst of this class of riders are the ones who become "born again safety advocates". These riders who scare themselves out of riding occasionally become preachers that tell anyone who will listen that "motorcycles are dangerous and should be banned". What they don't tell those they are preaching to is how they got that way. It's bad enough having to deal with the general public (who are at least honestly unaware of what riding is about) but a lot worse to be sabotaged from within by someone who did it to themselves and got in over their head.

Then there is the last group of these "started on a 600cc sportbike" riders that never tell us their tales. They never do because they can't. Instead, they enjoying peaceful surroundings and occasional visits by bereaved family and friends. They made that one mistake, that one error that compounded into a tragedy of inexperience. They can never tell us what that error was so we can learn from it and maybe also tell us that they should have started on something smaller. They were successful right until the point their skills and luck ran out. This can happen to any of us on any bike. But, in the end, new riders on a powerful sportbike can be a recipe for disaster.

Be honest with yourself. Very honest. Take the advice and wisdom of others more experienced than you and consider what they are saying. They may have a point. But if you opt for that 600cc sportbike, be assured you will still be accepted as a rider and still encouraged to act as safely as possible at all times.

The Final Equation

We've covered the reasons why people justify or want to get a 600cc sportbike. But we have one more thing to answer and it is simple: What makes these bad bikes to start on?

Sportbikes are built as racing machines, pure and simple. They are built in response to guidelines laid down by racing bodies for a particular class and made to win races in that class. Ducati, for example, spends most of their existence building bikes to win races. Since 1950, Ducati was always a racing bike manufacturer first and their products reflected that philosophy. A by-product of winning races is the fact that people see those winning machines and want to ride them (if you're going to ride, you might as well ride the best as it goes). It didn't take the motorcycle manufacturers long to figure out that there was a market demand for these machines and reacted accordingly.

Sportbikes represent a technological arms race. This has really become apparent in the past 5-10 years where new models eclipse last years models with better performance and capability with each passing year. To compare a 1989 Honda CBR600F Hurricane (the original CBR) to a 2003 CBR600RR is pointless. There is no comparison except in the model designation showing a distant family relation. The new CBR is lighter by at least 50 pounds and packs 30 percent more power, handling and braking ability that makes the original CBR look like a ponderous dinosaur. But just because that original CBR dinosaur has been eclipsed doesn't make it any more tamable. If anything, older sportbikes are far more temperamental than the descendants.

Consider the fact that this year a privateer (independent racer) bought a Yamaha YZF-R1 off the showroom floor, took off the lights and mirrors, added a race belly pan, exhaust and tires and placed in the top ten at the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. The bike was two weeks off the floor and basically stock (the modifications with the exception of the pipe are required). Since factory sponsored teams tend to take the top slots, any privateer that can break in the top ten is doing well by anyone's definition.

Because sportbikes (and especially 600s since they compete in the most populous racing class out there) are designed first as racing machines, they are built with handling, acceleration and speed in mind. Not just one quality at the expense of others but all of them in abundance! Centralizing the mass of the bike at the center of gravity (CoG) gives the bike neutral stability. The high riding position and the perching of the rider over the CoG gives the bike the ability to flick over rapidly.

The steering geometry and short wheelbase of these bikes is designed to provide short and rapid directional changes. Combined with the higher CoG and mass centralization, the steering setup is what gives sportbikes their amazing turning ability.

Engine designs vary but have settled on V-twins and inline fours as the preferred choices. The sportbike V-twins are liquid-cooled, high-rpm engines designed to generate massive torque (hence acceleration) and power in the mid-range of their design limits. Witness the success of Nicky Hayden and Miquel Duhamel on the Honda RC51 in AMA Superbike as testament to the massive grunt these engines put out. So potent in fact that the AMA changed the rules for the following season to even the odds between the V-twins and inline fours. The inline four equipped bikes simply couldn't outpower the twins on curvy portions of the race circuit.

The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders lust after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred.

A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it.

And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking.

All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt.

The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble.

The handling capabilities of sportbikes actually make them wonderful machines to ride once you are used to thinking where you want to go. This actually gives them great beginner qualities (if on the extreme end). The downside is this perfect handling is slaved to amazing power on tap and the brakes that can back it off just as quickly.

In the final equation, a 600cc sportbike is little more than a racing machine with street parts bolted on. They aren't designed for street use; they are adapted to it. But no compromises are made in that transition. The same R6, GSX-R600, ZX-6RR or CBR600RR you can buy off the showroom floor can be converted in an afternoon, be at the track the next day and wind up winning races. And the sportbikes from 10 years ago were the R6s, Gixxers, Ninjas and CBRs of their day. They possessed the same qualities that their modern descendants do just not with the same maximums. Even today on the street, a 15 year old sportbike is little different than its 2003 cousin. The 2003 might accelerate quicker, stop shorter and lean farther but at the speeds us mortals ride at, there will be little difference.

Sportbike technology has gone an amazing distance in twenty years. Performance and ability has almost doubled in that time. But rider ability has not and a new rider from 20 years ago would still have the same challenges then as a new rider would today on an R6.

Sportbike form evolved to meets its function: to win races. Always has, always will. And riders will lust after these technological marvels for that reason. Can you start out on one? Yes. But you can also pretend to be a GP racer on a smaller sportbike that gives up nothing to its bigger brothers where most of us spend our riding days. It is always more satisfying to smoke a 600cc or 1000cc sportbike in the twisties on a Ninja 250 or GS500 than a bigger bike.

But when you are ready to answer the call of the Supersport, they will be waiting for you and you'll be better off having honed your skills on the smaller sportbike. Supersports are not beginner bikes. But they make great second and third bikes.

The choice is yours.

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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 09:00 AM
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Where is this from. I will make it its own page if I have permission to reprint it.




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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 09:09 AM
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It's from the "www.beginnerbikes.com" which has been offline for a few weeks. It almost looks like they didn't renew their domain name and some jackass search engine bought it up. Either way, I don't know if it's coming back online, it was a pretty good site

Edit: Just found this on cycleforums:
http://forums.cycleworld.com/eve/ubb...1/r/1460077321

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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 09:56 AM
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WOW! I am blown away at how great this article is!

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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 10:04 AM
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i found BB long before I found CLSB. I really wish that website was still around. I recieved an email from them a few months ago (as I was a contributing member) explaining exactly what happened to the website, and no they will not be comming back online, and that is a shame because there insight to starting out in this great lifestyle (because motorcycling is far more then a hobby) was increadible.

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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach
It's from the "www.beginnerbikes.com" which has been offline for a few weeks. It almost looks like they didn't renew their domain name and some jackass search engine bought it up. Either way, I don't know if it's coming back online, it was a pretty good site

Edit: Just found this on cycleforums:
http://forums.cycleworld.com/eve/ubb...1/r/1460077321
Yeah I used to post there regularly. Towards the end there were disputes between some longtime members and moderators. In addition, someone hacked the site and essentially wiped out a couple years worth of postings.

It was really the only forum out there where you got a lot of sh*t (and rightly so) for asking what 600cc bike is good to start on.

I need your boots, your clothes, and your motorcycle.
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 11:20 AM
BSB > WSBK > MotoGP
 
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The article and other info really needs to online somewhere; the forum, not so much. And the forum is what killed the board... 'tis a shame.

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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 12:28 PM
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Of course, there are a couple MAJOR problem that were not mentioned.
1) Complete lack of motorcycle safety course available!!!!
2) Complete lack of respondibility of the dealerships, who will often talk up newbies into the bigger bikes because of there higher price tags.

CCS/USGPRU#976
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-24-2005, 11:43 AM
 
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BB was a great site. I read them a lot my first year of riding. Thanks for posting that article. I think I'll print it and give it to my nephew.
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 08:01 AM
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Most excellent article, great information.

Sometimes goodbye is your second chance.
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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 08:37 AM
 
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Actually, http://www.beginnerbikes.com was shut down around Christmas time. A new site, http://www.beginnerandbeyond.com was put up around February and the community is coming together there. Still a strong focus on aiding new riders, but also many experienced riders talking about riding as well.
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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racingxtc7
Of course, there are a couple MAJOR problem that were not mentioned.
1) Complete lack of motorcycle safety course available!!!!
2) Complete lack of respondibility of the dealerships, who will often talk up newbies into the bigger bikes because of there higher price tags.
I know what you mean about dealer responsibility. One dealership I was at was trying to sell me a Hyabusa, while another didn't think the GXS-R1000 was right for me due to lack of experience. I probably should have gotten a 600 instead of the 750, but at least I was informed before I made my decision.

Peace-
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
I know what you mean about dealer responsibility. One dealership I was at was trying to sell me a Hyabusa, while another didn't think the GXS-R1000 was right for me due to lack of experience. I probably should have gotten a 600 instead of the 750, but at least I was informed before I made my decision.

Peace-

Uhh... just to clarify here if I may:

The DEALER is responsible for providing the bike that you ask for, in the terms you've agreed upon. The CONSUMER is responsible for knowing what the fuck they're getting themselves into.

Sure it's nice when the dealer offers up some advice - but it's FAR from their "responsibility".

.02

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post #16 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 09:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Uhh... just to clarify here if I may:

The DEALER is responsible for providing the bike that you ask for, in the terms you've agreed upon. The CONSUMER is responsible for knowing what the fuck they're getting themselves into.

Sure it's nice when the dealer offers up some advice - but it's FAR from their "responsibility".

.02
It may not be a responsibility but a salesmans FIRST question should be: "Is this your first bike?" Then proceed to help the consumer.

They really shouldn't sell 100-150hp machines to a "I just got my license, no MSF trained, newbie."
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post #17 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-25-2005, 09:27 AM
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For fear that this will derail from what was an otherwise informative thread...I'll hold my tongue on this issue. If anyone would like to discuss this in detail, fire up a new thread and I'll happily share my perspectives as a former motorcycle salesman.

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post #18 of 68 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 10:42 AM
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post #19 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-11-2005, 08:34 PM
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ehh people like that piss me off. I started on a 750 (when I was 17) and then got a 1000 5 months later. Never dropped my 750 and when I bought it I didn't know anyone that rode. I unloaded it out of a minivan in my alley and went back and forth until I learned to ride. Traded that in the end of the summer for a brand new gsxr 1000 and didn't have any problems on that either. Yes I agree a lot of younger people are retards but NOT all.
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post #20 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-12-2005, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF
ehh people like that piss me off. I started on a 750 (when I was 17) and then got a 1000 5 months later. Never dropped my 750 and when I bought it I didn't know anyone that rode. I unloaded it out of a minivan in my alley and went back and forth until I learned to ride. Traded that in the end of the summer for a brand new gsxr 1000 and didn't have any problems on that either. Yes I agree a lot of younger people are retards but NOT all.
U exception to rule.
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post #21 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-12-2005, 12:36 PM
 
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What is real? Howl do you define real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Uhh... just to clarify here if I may:

The DEALER is responsible for providing the bike that you ask for, in the terms you've agreed upon. The CONSUMER is responsible for knowing what the fuck they're getting themselves into.

Sure it's nice when the dealer offers up some advice - but it's FAR from their "responsibility".

.02
+1 And this has been discussed. Anyone interested should do a search on the site to find the many pages on this topic.

Back on topic - I think a beginner site is great and personally I will research this new site posted. All info, of course, is always good. I don't know personally when I won't be considered a "newbie" but hey, learning is life and life is all I have. So I should end up pretty smart someday! lol

Anyways, I will post humbly that I'm guilty of a few of these arguments. But will say in my own defense it wasn't because I might not get what I want to hear but because of my own common sense. Hell, I didn't know anybody to even give me a tip on what to do with the bike world! And I think that is a common thing that isn't addressed. Still, it's on me the consumer to find out what's what.

There are very good points in this article and I doubt most will "admit" to anything but hey, I know for me personally this would've helped a lot in my 4 years of researching bikes before I finally settled on what I "thought" would be good for me.

Oh well........ I'm not giving my bike back though so screw it all!

Last edited by Loki_D_Wolf; 04-12-2005 at 01:06 PM.
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post #22 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-12-2005, 01:16 PM
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And as far as I know, the mod of that site went a little nutty, shut the site down, and no one has heard from him since. Sad, b/c he was a good guy and a good mod. Bb.com actually slipt into two sites when the main site went down-- I think someone else posted those links earlier in the thread. There were bascially two factions of people there who couldn't agree on anything. The info there was great for me when I was just starting out....but those people just hated sportbikers. I mean, a few of them made attempts to be fair, but the groups as a whole would just continually lump all sportbikers into the "crazy" category. I ended up just leaving because I couldn't post anything without someone getting on and saying "first of all, your problem is you have a sportbike..." blah blah.

The great thing about that site, though, was the articles. There was just a weath of info there BEYOND what the forum had to offer. I would be suprised if the old mod that wrote that stuff wouldn't let you post it.
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post #23 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-13-2005, 02:16 PM
 
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Actually, I started one of the two spinoff sites (www.beginnerandbeyond.com) and I ride an '04 GSXR 750. Ill agree the old bb.com was a little hard on sportbikers, but I think with the rebirth (at least on the site I put up) people have eased up - when the site admin rides a gixxer it makes it a bit easier LOL. The articles paired with the forums is what made bb.com such a great resource to new riders. Im in the process of getting all the old articles re-published (Im gathering permission from all the various authors) and hope to provide that starting block to new riders that helped me from killing myself when I started out.

As for the guy that originally wrote that article, I've been in touch with him and he has given me permission to post it on my site. I wouldnt be surprised if he would allow it to be posted here as well, it is a great read. If the mods of this site are interested let me know and Ill contact the guy.
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post #24 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-25-2005, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF
ehh people like that piss me off. I started on a 750 (when I was 17) and then got a 1000 5 months later. Never dropped my 750 and when I bought it I didn't know anyone that rode. I unloaded it out of a minivan in my alley and went back and forth until I learned to ride. Traded that in the end of the summer for a brand new gsxr 1000 and didn't have any problems on that either. Yes I agree a lot of younger people are retards but NOT all.

I agree, I am currently riding my first bike a 01' Kawa 600ZXR, I am doing much like you have done I am driving it around my neighborhood circle where there is no traffic so I can get a real good handle on the bike. I would also like to take some sort of training here in the near future. Most but not all newbies are retards...........But then again according to the article I may be a retard for buying a 600cc for my first bike!
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post #25 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-25-2005, 05:11 PM
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I think a major point is the development of proper throttle control. Until it becomes almost natural (read: muscle memory) a little scare on the bike can make you grab for the throttle and twist it much more than you actually want to. That's how a lot of the new guys are looping their 04 636 and up bikes. I don't know if that carb'd 600 will power wheelie, but a GSXR1000 or the like will do it in a heartbeat. With the Ninja I could fall asleep on the throttle with it wide open and I was in no danger of, well, basically going anywhere.

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post #26 of 68 (permalink) Old 04-25-2005, 07:04 PM
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The guy who wrote that is a regular on sportbikes.net and the SomethingAwful forums. He's been riding for a few years but he just bought his first sportbike, a 04 GSX-R 600, like a month ago. He's been riding bikes that are older than he is all his life. Then he presumes to write a long winded, condescending rant about how 600's are OMG SO POWERFUL when he doesn't even own one.
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post #27 of 68 (permalink) Old 05-09-2005, 12:15 PM
 
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newbie

ive been riding since i could walk, and have taken and passed the mfs binger couce to get my licens and have been riding a '75 honda cb750 for a couple years now, i realy want to start in to a new sport bike, but unsure were to head, because i know im skilled, but see freinds of mine who are out there distroing there sport bike every day. I dont know wether im worthy enought for a sport bike but want one, any advice
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post #28 of 68 (permalink) Old 05-09-2005, 12:19 PM
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relhowtnt04,

Great transition bike (from a slower beginner bike like yours) to Supersport bikes would be the Suzuki SV650S. It's cheap, fast, and a hell of a lot of fun, and if you are a good rider you will own 600cc bikes with it anywhere but on a long stretch of straight road. Plus it has a fairly aggressive riding position which will get you use to the riding position of the "R" bikes.

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post #29 of 68 (permalink) Old 06-14-2005, 09:41 AM
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This should be printed in major newspapers for everybody to see it.
Great article.
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post #30 of 68 (permalink) Old 06-14-2005, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Uhh... just to clarify here if I may:

The DEALER is responsible for providing the bike that you ask for, in the terms you've agreed upon. The CONSUMER is responsible for knowing what the fuck they're getting themselves into.

Sure it's nice when the dealer offers up some advice - but it's FAR from their "responsibility".

.02
You're wrong man! The consumer should never have to take responsibility for what they buy or what they do with said product.
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