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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Baseball and the Steroids Scandal

Ah yes, sweet sweet vindication. All the ESPN types that so boldly pronounced that steroids really didn't help power numbers as much as they aided in rehab and endurance. That you still had to "hit" the ball. What a complete load of crap, and this year's numbers speak to that end.

With a week left in the season, the AL Home Run leader is Carlos Quentin with 36 and the MLB leader is Ryan Howard with 46, second place is Adam Dunn with 38. That means ONE man in baseball has 40+ and less than 15 league wide over 30 (I think, that's a guess). This is how baseball has always been, not the freak shit of th late 90's/early 2000's. Those records should just be a sidenote and just uniformly pulled from the overall leader boards. I think most people still consider Maris' 61 home runs in 1961 to be the benchmark and true record and not Bonds' ridiculous 76...my gosh.

So to all of the naysayers and people that would argue the true intent of steroid abusers, right here **bare ass**.

Tom

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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:23 PM
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Bye Bye Longball Welcome back Baseball!!!

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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:24 PM
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maybe only the pitchers are using roids now and no one can hit the ball anymore.

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post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:24 PM
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:35 PM
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Roids saved baseball.
Unfortunately there is some truth to this statement.

Glad they're gone now though. (for the most part)
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:39 PM
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ehhh. Irrational demonization of a substance for no real reason. That "unfair advantage thing is BS.

What about players that get Lasik to improve vision? Thats allowed. isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.
What about players that have genetic advantages? Thats allowed, isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.

in contrast, 'roids only work to any appreciable degree if you do.

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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:41 PM
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I think they should just get rid of baseball in general. Its boring as all get out, and the world series always screws with my primetime viewing schedule.




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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:42 PM
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I think they should just get rid of baseball in general. Its boring as all get out, and the world series always screws with my primetime viewing schedule.


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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:49 PM
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I think they should just get rid of baseball in general. Its boring as all get out, and the world series always screws with my primetime viewing schedule.
Thats Un-American.

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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
ehhh. Irrational demonization of a substance for no real reason. That "unfair advantage thing is BS.

What about players that get Lasik to improve vision? Thats allowed. isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.
What about players that have genetic advantages? Thats allowed, isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.

in contrast, 'roids only work to any appreciable degree if you do.
You can wear glasses or contacts and get the same effect.

Genetic advantage is why they are athletes in the first place.


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Originally Posted by CerkMX View Post
Ah yes, sweet sweet vindication. All the ESPN types that so boldly pronounced that steroids really didn't help power numbers as much as they aided in rehab and endurance. That you still had to "hit" the ball. What a complete load of crap, and this year's numbers speak to that end.

With a week left in the season, the AL Home Run leader is Carlos Quentin with 36 and the MLB leader is Ryan Howard with 46, second place is Adam Dunn with 38. That means ONE man in baseball has 40+ and less than 15 league wide over 30 (I think, that's a guess). This is how baseball has always been, not the freak shit of th late 90's/early 2000's. Those records should just be a sidenote and just uniformly pulled from the overall leader boards. I think most people still consider Maris' 61 home runs in 1961 to be the benchmark and true record and not Bonds' ridiculous 76...my gosh.

So to all of the naysayers and people that would argue the true intent of steroid abusers, right here **bare ass**.

Pitchers were on the juice too. a 40 year old pitcher should not throw 100 plus.

I never understood the argument that it does not help you hit the ball. Of course it doesn't but if you can already hit it pretty well. Barry Bonds early career. You can really kill the ball being on roids or whatever.

Give a mid level Moto Gp racer a nitrous boost on his bike and I bet he does not stay mid-level for long. Give it to Rossi and you would see ridiculous numbers.

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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:02 PM
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You can wear glasses or contacts and get the same effect.

Genetic advantage is why they are athletes in the first place.





Pitchers were on the juice too. a 40 year old pitcher should not throw 100 plus.

I never understood the argument that it does not help you hit the ball. Of course it doesn't but if you can already hit it pretty well. Barry Bonds early career. You can really kill the ball being on roids or whatever.

Give a mid level Moto Gp racer a nitrous boost on his bike and I bet he does not stay mid-level for long. Give it to Rossi and you would see ridiculous numbers.
You can lift more and eat better and get the same effect as 'roids. So I really don't think the distinction as to glasses is valid. Its the same: Use of technology to enhance one's physical abilities.

Same goes for prosthetics. They allow a player to use an artificial means to overcome injury and enhance what they could do with the injured natural 'part'

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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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ehhh. Irrational demonization of a substance for no real reason. That "unfair advantage thing is BS.

What about players that get Lasik to improve vision? Thats allowed. isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.
What about players that have genetic advantages? Thats allowed, isn't that unfair? They didn't 'work' for it.

in contrast, 'roids only work to any appreciable degree if you do.
See Bob-O I disagree with ya here. Whatever "advantages" you want to carry out that get you as close to NATURAL perfection as possible are fine by me. That means vision correction, caffiene...and I woulnd't call natural genetic advantages unfair?? Some of us are just smarter, faster and better looking (don't worry my man, you can ride much faster than I can).

I think this year's statistics clearly demonstrate the real means behind the ridiculous end in past years.

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I think they should just get rid of baseball in general. Its boring as all get out, and the world series always screws with my primetime viewing schedule.
Stay out of my thread

Tom

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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:09 PM
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See Bob-O I disagree with ya here. Whatever "advantages" you want to carry out that get you as close to NATURAL perfection as possible are fine by me. That means vision correction, caffiene...and I woulnd't call natural genetic advantages unfair?? Some of us are just smarter, faster and better looking (don't worry my man, you can ride much faster than I can).

I think this year's statistics clearly demonstrate the real means behind the ridiculous end in past years.



Stay out of my thread
I know we differ here (as well as beer choice)

Why caffeine and not 'roids? Neither are 'natural,' nor is lasik.
Would you approve of a surgery that somehow enhanced strength?
What about lipo?

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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I know we differ here (as well as beer choice)

Why caffeine and not 'roids? Neither are 'natural,' nor is lasik.
Would you approve of a surgery that somehow enhanced strength?
What about lipo?
They kind of did kill the caffeine thing. They banned Grennies so the coffee is not loaded anymore.

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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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I know we differ here (as well as beer choice)

Why caffeine and not 'roids? Neither are 'natural,' nor is lasik.
Would you approve of a surgery that somehow enhanced strength?
What about lipo?
Whatever gets you to the peak of your natural limits if fine with me. If it takes caffiene to keep you awake or help get you to your best then fine, if Lasik gets you to 20/20 instead of glasses, fine...making you some kind of He-Man is not in my legit book...go back to pounding your muscle mags ya GNC lovin' freak

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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:18 PM
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Whatever gets you to the peak of your natural limits if fine with me. If it takes caffiene to keep you awake or help get you to your best then fine, if Lasik gets you to 20/20 instead of glasses, fine...making you some kind of He-Man is not in my legit book...go back to pounding your muscle mags ya GNC lovin' freak


You realize there are 'natural' he-man types right? What about the players getting lasik that take them to 'super-perfect' 20/15 or 20/10?
Where's the line between 'natural' perfection as far as strength and un-natural?

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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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You realize there are 'natural' he-man types right? What about the players getting lasik that take them to 'super-perfect' 20/15 or 20/10?
Where's the line between 'natural' perfection as far as strength and un-natural?
Natural He-Men tend not to be able to hit very well

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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:30 PM
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Glad they're gone now though. (for the most part)
If you think that, you are crazy.

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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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If you think that, you are crazy.
They will likely never be completely eradicated, specifically by those that have nothing to lose...meaning up and comers or those whose natural talent just does not allow for big league play. But most of those should be found out.

Of course people will continue to cheat, but the league wide epidemic, the normalcy of cheating, is IMO gone. And likley for good as most people will not fall for it again (some of us never did).

By and large, the largescale problem is resolved at this point, and the numbers plainly speak to that.

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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:36 PM
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I think this year's statistics clearly demonstrate the real means behind the ridiculous end in past years.

Or maybe it's just that the guys that were capable of putting up those numbers are either hurt, older or not playing the game anymore?


What will you say when Ryan Howard goes over 50HR's? When quentin and longoria and all the younger crop start all creaping up and you see 20 guys hitting over 40HRS again in just a couple years?

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post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CerkMX View Post
They will likely never be completely eradicated, specifically by those that have nothing to lose...meaning up and comers or those whose natural talent just does not allow for big league play. But most of those should be found out.

Of course people will continue to cheat, but the league wide epidemic, the normalcy of cheating, is IMO gone. And likley for good as most people will not fall for it again (some of us never did).

By and large, the largescale problem is resolved at this point, and the numbers plainly speak to that.

You are absolutely out of your mind crazy and have no idea what you are talking about.


As long as there are hundreds of thousands of collegiate and minor league players competing for only a few hundred roster spots in Major League Baseball there will be widespread use of.....whatever it takes.....to get to that level. This is coming from someone that played semi-big time collegiate baseball. Recently. Saw it first hand.

I for one say, bring it on. Let them do whatever they want, whatever they feel they need to do. And we will pull the fences back to Old Comisky & Ebbots Field type dimensions. Lets see what a human being is capable of. Lets see someone hit a ball 1000 feet.

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post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I know we differ here (as well as beer choice)

Why caffeine and not 'roids? Neither are 'natural,' nor is lasik.
Would you approve of a surgery that somehow enhanced strength?
What about lipo?
Exactly, and how is the caffine and amphetamines that Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig used - the most potent stuff available in their day - any different than today's players using the latest and greatest?

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post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 01:46 PM
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Whatever gets you to the peak of your natural limits if fine with me. If it takes caffiene to keep you awake or help get you to your best then fine, if Lasik gets you to 20/20 instead of glasses, fine...making you some kind of He-Man is not in my legit book...go back to pounding your muscle mags ya GNC lovin' freak
caffine, when used in a sports setting, isn't for 'helping you stay awake'.

It helps you react more quickly. It lets you wait an extra split second to see what pitch is being thrown, where, how hard, make the judgment and still get your hands to the ball, for example.

The old timers didn't use it because they were out late the night before. They used it because it helped them play the game at a higher level. And they didn't drink coffee. They took pills. Lots of them.

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post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:06 PM
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Steroids...

Baseball has been the most lenient of all professional sports in dealing with steroids. I wish the users would just have the balls to say, "yeah I did it!" I doubt steroid use will ever be eradicated. As long as the doctors stay one step ahead of the testing, and the testing for HGH can only go back a week, athletes are going to use. It is a shame but true.
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post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mac11 View Post
Or maybe it's just that the guys that were capable of putting up those numbers are either hurt, older or not playing the game anymore?


What will you say when Ryan Howard goes over 50HR's? When quentin and longoria and all the younger crop start all creaping up and you see 20 guys hitting over 40HRS again in just a couple years?
Wow dude, you're on a roll today. Statistical analysis partner. Unless the whole league is hurt I'd say the numbers are a pretty clear indicator of where the league is at today. If you don't think that the ridiculous spike in power numbers between 1998 and 2005 were an oddity, you haven't been watching the same game I have.

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Exactly, and how is the caffine and amphetamines that Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig used - the most potent stuff available in their day - any different than today's players using the latest and greatest?
Now that is just plain ridiculous partner.

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Originally Posted by mac11 View Post
caffine, when used in a sports setting, isn't for 'helping you stay awake'.

It helps you react more quickly. It lets you wait an extra split second to see what pitch is being thrown, where, how hard, make the judgment and still get your hands to the ball, for example.

The old timers didn't use it because they were out late the night before. They used it because it helped them play the game at a higher level. And they didn't drink coffee. They took pills. Lots of them.
As I mentioned, whatever you want to do LEGALLY to get your body to its own natural peak, fine...good by me. Not only do steroids take your body to an insanely UNNATURAL state, they do so illegally...thanks for playing

...oh, and read a few biographies of the older players...they most certainly were trying to stay awake due to the nights before

Oh, and my insight also comes from the inside. I come from a bit of a baseball family

Tom

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post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Baseball has been the most lenient of all professional sports in dealing with steroids. I wish the users would just have the balls to say, "yeah I did it!" I doubt steroid use will ever be eradicated. As long as the doctors stay one step ahead of the testing, and the testing for HGH can only go back a week, athletes are going to use. It is a shame but true.
Completely agree...I'm simply saying that the across the board, everyone is using garbage is a thing of the past. I predict that we will not see 70+ HR's twice in a few years again any time soon

Tom

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post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:12 PM
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...


As I mentioned, whatever you want to do LEGALLY to get your body to its own natural peak, fine...good by me. Not only do steroids take your body to an insanely UNNATURAL state, they do so illegally...thanks for playing

...oh, and read a few biographies of the older players...they most certainly were trying to stay awake due to the nights before

Oh, and my insight also comes from the inside. I come from a bit of a baseball family
So thats the distinction? legal v. illegal?

What if Congress legalized them? OR, what if the player had a script? (which as a sched III, makes it legal to use)

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post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:17 PM
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Wow dude, you're on a roll today. Statistical analysis partner. Unless the whole league is hurt I'd say the numbers are a pretty clear indicator of where the league is at today.
I didn't say the whole league is hurt. The numbers are what they are but you are fooling yourself if you think that are any indication of any percentage of players not trying "little tricks" - however you want to define that - to better themselves vs. their competition.

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If you don't think that the ridiculous spike in power numbers between 1998 and 2005 were an oddity, you haven't been watching the same game I have.
There were a few spikes but there have been a few random outliers thought the history of the game. There has been a steady increase for decades.


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Now that is just plain ridiculous partner.

Is it ridiculous to use the names I have or to think the substances they used improved their ability to place the game?


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As I mentioned, whatever you want to do LEGALLY to get your body to its own natural peak, fine...good by me. Not only do steroids take your body to an insanely UNNATURAL state, they do so illegally...thanks for playing
Caffine doesn't take you to a 'natural' peak. It is quite unnatural, actually. go take a handful of caffine pills and see how you feel.

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...oh, and read a few biographies of the older players...they most certainly were trying to stay awake due to the nights before

I'm not going to deny they were "out on the town" but to think the massive amounts of uppers that were consumed was to deal with a league wide hangover is utterly foolish.

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post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:19 PM
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As I mentioned, whatever you want to do LEGALLY to get your body to its own natural peak, fine...good by me. Not only do steroids take your body to an insanely UNNATURAL state, they do so illegally...thanks for playing
And BTW, way to go changing the rules halfway through the game.


This was the first time you mentioned "legally"

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post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-23-2008, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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So thats the distinction? legal v. illegal?

What if Congress legalized them? OR, what if the player had a script? (which as a sched III, makes it legal to use)
Semantics man...I'm just glad the ungodly numbers directly linked to the league-wide steroid and HGH abuse are no more.

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I didn't say the whole league is hurt. The numbers are what they are but you are fooling yourself if you think that are any indication of any percentage of players not trying "little tricks" - however you want to define that - to better themselves vs. their competition.



There were a few spikes but there have been a few random outliers thought the history of the game. There has been a steady increase for decades.





Is it ridiculous to use the names I have or to think the substances they used improved their ability to place the game?




Caffine doesn't take you to a 'natural' peak. It is quite unnatural, actually. go take a handful of caffine pills and see how you feel.




I'm not going to deny they were "out on the town" but to think the massive amounts of uppers that were consumed was to deal with a league wide hangover is utterly foolish.
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And BTW, way to go changing the rules halfway through the game.


This was the first time you mentioned "legally"
Here's the bottom line my man. There is NO comparison at any time in history between the steroid era and any other time in baseball. Contrary to your contention that stats have been on the rise for decades, baseball's best attribute was it's ability to directly compare players post-dead ball era across the board BECAUSE stats were the same. Two times in baseball history was the historic mark of 60 home runs reached prior to 1998. In the following 6 years it was attained 6 times (off the top of my head) and the record shattered 3 times...ridiculous.

I am not going to debate what constitutes cheating and what does not...all I know is that no other form of performance enhancing has ever resulted in such gross distortion fo the game and its numbers, and I for one am glad that they have a good handle on it once again. Of course it will never cease, but I hope that it never again takes center stage as the norm.

Tom

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