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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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HDW: Home Defense Weapon - idea/concept

So after the dissy upper questions that CLSB helped me with, I was thinking of more interesting things you can do with an AR lower.

Three more AR-themed topics that have peaked my interest:

1. larger caliber conversion uppers
2. AR pistols
3. a trend in "serious" or maybe "real" gun blogs is that rifles are better home defense weapons then handguns or shotguns

Addressing Those Topics

Number 3, the rifle/carbine - I have a shit load of gun feeds in my daily RSS reader, and a trend that I've been reading about seems to be that the belief that a carbine (mainly AR) is better for home defense. The carbine's round energy and magazine capacity definitely make it attractive compared to a handgun or shotgun (if you can accept that a shotgun is maneuverable enough for home defense, then a light weight AR with a collapsible buttstock would fit the bill and carry more rounds). Then the only argument would be "stopping power" and over-penetration, which if you used .223 designed for hunting, you could probably skip that whole argument?

Number 2, the pistol AR - Even more compact and maneuverable then a shotgun or carbine with more rounds to use, yet negates the accuracy of the platform for distance?

Number 1, larger caliber upper - Larger caliber equals more "stopping power", a la shotgun slugs and any pistol round starting in ".4", right? I was thinking of .458 SOCOM for use with any mil-spec pistol lower. I'd also stay with subsonic loadings due to the idea that in a home defense situation, you won't putting on ears to protect your hearing (not breaking 1125 fps is the reason why I think 200-230gr .45 +P and 180gr .40 S&W are better in a pistol for use inside your home versus 9mm). And looking at subsonic .458 SOCOM, a 410gr or 500gr loading is bringing 910-1022 ft/lbs of energy, I'd say that would probably drop a bad guy. Yeah, it's pricy (sub SOCOM is about $3.50 a shot versus $1 for double aught or .45 auto), so there is that. You could use a .223 upper on the pistol for practice to save though?


The Idea/Concept Part
So what about a larger caliber conversion upper attached to a pistol lower? I know this is not a new idea, but why shouldn't it get some love? Slap a light and red dot/laser on it and call it a HDW. What say ye CLSB?

So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:15 AM
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Regarding #2, would that be classified as a short barreled rifle (SBR)?
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:35 AM
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An AR marked as Pistol, and without a stock, is classified as a pistol. I think the barrel might need to be under a certain length, but I'm not sure about that last part.


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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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That's a good question.

In what I've been reading, is that if the buffer tube can't accept a stock, you don't put a buffer tube on it that can accept a stock, and it's not been transferred as a rifle with the ATF (stripped lower or pistol lower - okay to make into a rifle or pistol. a rifle lower can't be converted into a pistol, it'd be considered an SBR, I guess), then you're OK.

It's a pistol on the 4473, so unless you have a local ordinance on mag capacity, I couldn't see there being an issue.

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Originally Posted by Dave13 View Post
Regarding #2, would that be classified as a short barreled rifle (SBR)?

So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:50 AM
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Just some quick thoughts & responses... don't have time to go in depth right now.


Super short barrel + higher powered round = flamethrower. Do you really want that risk & liability in a home defense scenario? Remember in low-light scenarios, you'll get blinded too.

A firearm without a stock will have an accuracy disadvantage vs those that do have a stock, simply due to the nature of how one can bring such a weapon to target. Is that a viable trade-off, especially when dealing with a much front-heavier firearm like an AR pistol? Balance is compromised due to extra weight (of ammunition) in front of your firing hand.

Shorter barrel = less muzzle velocity & reduction of ballistic capabilities.

You suggest using a larger caliber round in one variation, but then suggest sub-sonic rounds. Doesn't underpowering a round reduce its effective potential, thus defeat the purpose?


Let's back up... what is your ultimate goal? I am of the mindset that in a defensive situation, you want the biggest hammer that you can proficiently wield, as your top priority is to neutralize a lethal threat. If you can wield a sledgehammer, why choose a smaller claw hammer because it ought to be good enough? What if it isn't - what is the consequence of NOT being able to neutralize a threat instantaneously? Consider that it only takes a threat an additional split second to pull their own trigger on you.

Last edited by Bek; 05-14-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 11:09 AM
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Try shooting a large caliber conversion on a pistol platformed lower. Doesn't the sound of that in itself just ooze retarded? Seriously, in a discussion about true home defense why would you consider arming yourself with such an impractical setup? Just cause things can be done doesn't mean they should. And if you do want to piece something like this together at least be serious enough to classify it ascent it is, a fun gun. What kind of mall ninja horse shit type of protection weapon would this be.

The gun community is headed to shit if this is all the crap we have to deal with moving forward. Btw, don't forget to load it with zombie ammo

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
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Btw, don't forget to load it with zombie ammo
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 04:23 PM
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A SBR AR with a can would be my choice in HD. Eventually I'm going to do a NFA trust and do just that.

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Good point about the flame thrower...

I called it a "HDW" as a play on PDWs that companies like Knight Armament make.

This was for fun based on some stuff I was reading to kill some time.

The thought was to skip the stamp and have a bigger magazine then a pistol or shotgun by using a pistol platform and go with a lager caliber for more power.

As for the round, I was looking at subsonic versus full power .458 measurements for comparison to a pistol round. I chose subsonic as an idea of keeping the noise down.

I agree that it's kinda stupid to basically gimp what would work fine in the beginning, but why not make something for fun that could work?

So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin79 View Post
The thought was to skip the stamp and have a bigger magazine then a pistol or shotgun by using a pistol platform and go with a lager caliber for more power.

As for the round, I was looking at subsonic versus full power .458 measurements for comparison to a pistol round. I chose subsonic as an idea of keeping the noise down.
The key problem with your proposal is that you "want more power" but using a short barrel plus reduced load subsonic ammunition doubly counters that goal.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 08:16 PM
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:29 PM
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Regarding the 4473, there is a "receiver" option in addition to "rifle" and "pistol". I would make sure it was transferred as such. Also in IL you do not need to have a "pistol only" lower.

regarding the flame thrower; When shooting ball ammo thru my G22C, I get a huge "V" of flame and a huge fireball out the muzzle. When I shoot quality HD/LE ammo (ex Win 180gr bonded JHP, Qxxx something, i forget) I get no flash from the muzzle or comp, recoil is less, rounds more accurate, and IIRC according to Win the MV is in the same ballpark.

I shoot wolf, PMC, m193, m855, etc thru mine. Would shooting the fancy $1+ per round 223/556 rounds have less flash and felt recoil than mil spec and cheap stuff as in the pistol calibers?

Then you would have to access if m193 would have the MV to reliably fragment at HD distances. You might need that $1+ per round ammo to use in a 10.5"

A 458 would go thru alot of walls no?
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
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A 458 would go thru alot of walls no?
So can a .223. Best HDW is and always will be a shotgun. Less chance of penetration through walls hitting innocent bystanders in other apts/houses next door. Plus the sound of a shotgun racking will make most intruders take off running.

If you are out in the country and the neighbors are a ways off, fine use whatever you want.

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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 01:43 AM
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I never understood the whole "racking the shotgun" theory. I keep my defense weapons loaded and a round in the chamber. Treat all guns like they are loaded, and keep them that way because an unloaded weapon doesn't do you any good.

Naturally, things like secure doors, windows, lighting, alarm, etc are your first line of defense. After that, a weapon you can use effectively is the weapon to have, IMHO.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 02:02 AM
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Wtf are you defending yourself against that you need an AR? Just get a pistol and work on your shooting skills.
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 03:37 AM
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Self defense shotgun loads can over penetrate as well. For me it is so much easier to be accurate with an AR than a handgun.

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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
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Self defense shotgun loads can over penetrate as well. For me it is so much easier to be accurate with an AR than a handgun.
I have zero experience with rifles, so somebody please call me on my bullshit, but wouldn't even a well placed shot with .223 over penetrate a body, and the wall behind it?
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 06:08 AM
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinitrogen View Post
i have zero experience with rifles, so somebody please call me on my bullshit, but wouldn't even a well placed shot with .223 over penetrate a body, and the wall behind it?
+1

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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnaz56 View Post
Wtf are you defending yourself against that you need an AR? Just get a pistol and work on your shooting skills.

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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 06:23 AM
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HD procedures the common sense approach:
1) Dial 911
2) Barricade yourself
3) Defend yourself

Remember the steps can be in any order. You will have to explain the lethal intervention to the police, it will be easier to explain if you used a 38 special wheel gun, than if you used some zombie special forces soldier of fortune exotic rifle/handgun with wiz bang laser guided exploding ammo and sights that look they came from the 26th century. Another hint is don't wear your T-shirt that reads "Kill Them All! Let God Sort Them Out" to the interview. If you want to build super bad ass weapons, fine, I would highly recommend that you use a plain Jane weapon for home defense.

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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 08:31 AM
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Screw that, I'm going total home defense with a 50BMG pistol and a red dot!


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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 08:53 AM
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youll be able to take out the bad guy and his cars engine block with a single round... sounds pretty economical

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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
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I have zero experience with rifles, so somebody please call me on my bullshit, but wouldn't even a well placed shot with .223 over penetrate a body, and the wall behind it?

A well placed, quality, m193 round out of a 16" or longer bbl will likely yaw and fragment inside the average body at these distances. Should you miss it will also yaw as it hits drywall, etc making it penetrate less walls than pistol ammo, slugs, buckshot, etc.

Even a m855 "penetration" round will likely tumble and fragment in the bad guy at these distances.
http://youtu.be/55CkeT7qdtM
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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 09:01 AM
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Folks should spend some time here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Lots of amateur yet insightful penetration testing.

In a nutshell, IF you miss entirely, you're going to penetrate at least one layer of drywall, with practically any combat-worthy caliber.

Handguns require a much higher degree of proficiency to operate effectively and accurately under stress. Try USPSA or IDPA to just get an idea of how challenging it can be to use a handgun when you're not just "standing around."

I'm still a strongly believer that shotguns are the best for HD. They certainly have their cons, such as heavy recoil, potentially unwieldy, and low ammunition capacity. But they have lots of advantages... low probability for malfunctions (presuming pump-action), hard hitting (with slugs or heavy buckshot), greater accuracy potential due to length & stock (sight radius, etc.), simple to manipulate under stress, and relatively low learning curve to attain adequate proficiency.
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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 09:14 AM
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Folks should spend some time here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Lots of amateur yet insightful penetration testing.

In a nutshell, IF you miss entirely, you're going to penetrate at least one layer of drywall, with practically any combat-worthy caliber.
+1 Great site. Lots of relevant chapters.

Even with ballistic tipped or frangible ammo, walls are going to get penetrated if you miss.
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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 01:34 PM
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I never understood the whole "racking the shotgun" theory.
Its an unmistakeable sound that most criminals understand to "get the fuck out" and the home owner means business.

Mine is kept action open anyways. Gets closed at the same time I get it out of the cabinet.

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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinitrogen View Post
I have zero experience with rifles, so somebody please call me on my bullshit, but wouldn't even a well placed shot with .223 over penetrate a body, and the wall behind it?
My rifle is loaded with 55 gr soft points, they expand and limit over penetration. Coming from one of our swat guys, there have been no rounds leave a crooks body other than those shot in a hand or arm.

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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2012, 03:17 AM
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Folks should spend some time here:
Try USPSA or IDPA to just get an idea of how challenging it can be to use a handgun when you're not just "standing around."
I really want to try this during my summer break, but I can't seem to find local events
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2012, 08:43 AM
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I really want to try this during my summer break, but I can't seem to find local events

If you've never run USPSA/IDPA and are not proficient in holster use, then first sign up for Excel's next Intermediate Handgun Skills class:

http://www.exceltraininggroup.com/

Then check out Oak Park Sportsmens Club's USPSA match schedule here:

http://www.opsc.ws/practical-shooting

There's a variety of other events all throughout the summer. For example, NISA runs their monthly match just across the WI border.

http://www.nisa-uspsa.com/

Pine Tree Pistol Club also runs regular events:

http://www.pinetreepistol.com/ss/uspsa
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