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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quinn Pushes for Assault Weapons Ban

Here we go again.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...0,341235.story

Quote:
Quinn pushes for assault weapons ban

By Ray Long and Monique Garcia
12:20 p.m. CDT, July 31, 2012

SPRINGFIELD — Gov. Pat Quinn is renewing a push in Illinois to ban assault weapons in the wake of the killings at a Colorado theater that left 12 dead and dozens more wounded.

The Democratic governor also revealed plans today to propose a ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines in Illinois.

He said in a letter to all state lawmakers that he supports the U.S. Constitution’s 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, but the “proliferation of military-style assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines undermines public safety and the right of personal security of every citizen.”

The proposal comes in the form of an amendatory veto of a bill that he is sending back to lawmakers to consider whether to support or reject. Even in the wake of the Colorado shootings, Quinn will find himself with a tough sell in a legislature that is so deeply divided over guns that no major pro-gun or anti-gun legislation has moved forward for years.

In recent years, Chicago Democrats have turned out in favor of gun control while Downstate Democrats and Republicans have fought off any proposal that they fear could lead to restrictions on hunting rights. Some Democratic leaders also have also viewed gun control as a wedge issue in suburban elections, where Republicans have split on the issue.

Still pending in the legislature is a bill to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, an issue that has gained traction in recent years as all other states have enacted some form of such a law. But Chicago forces, backed for years by Mayor Richard Daley and now by Mayor Rahm Emanuel, have resisted efforts to loosen Illinois gun laws.

Quinn, in his letter to lawmakers, noted that anyone with a firearms identification card in Illinois is permitted to buy an assault weapon and that Illinois does not restrict on the purchase or possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines.

He also noted that California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York, all states with major cities and densely populated urban areas, have bans similar to what he is proposing.

“Banning assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines will make Illinois a safer place to live,” Quinn wrote.

The Colorado shooting suspect, James Holmes, is charged with 140 counts of murder or attempted murder in the July 20 rampage at the opening of the movie “The Dark Knight Rises” in Aurora, Colo. One of the victims of the shootings was John Larimer of Crystal Lake. Larimer, 27, was a Navy intelligence technician who died while shielding his girlfriend from gunfire.

The sponsor of the measure Quinn re-wrote said he is "disappointed" by the governor's move because it puts the original legislation in jeopardy. Sen. David Luechtefeld, R-Okawville, said the measure was designed to allow Illinois residents to buy ammunition through the mail, something that is already allowed in other states. Luechtefeld said if Quinn wants to ban assault weapons, he should have introduced a separate bill to do so.

"This is something that was supported by Republicans and Democrats across the state, and this makes it a very controversial bill all of a sudden," Luechtefeld said. "This is politically motivated. It's on people's minds right now because of what happened in Colorado, and the governor wants a piece of the publicity."
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:35 PM
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This an honest question, not trying to troll or anything (seriously for once).

But myself not being a gun expert, what is the defense to this statement?

Quote:
“proliferation of military-style assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines undermines public safety and the right of personal security of every citizen.”
I can understand handguns and shot guns, but what is the reason to own a "military-style assault weapon?"

Really, just trying to understand here.

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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
This an honest question, not trying to troll or anything (seriously for once).

But myself not being a gun expert, what is the defense to this statement?

I can understand handguns and shot guns, but what is the reason to own a "military-style assault weapon?"

Really, just trying to understand here.
First, ask yourself, what actually defines a "military style assault weapon?" Can you accurately and descriptively answer that question? I'm willing you bet you cannot, nor can the vast majority of the public, including our Congress-critters. The term "assault rifle" has become a media buzz word that really has very little practical use.

The things that fundamentally make a "traditional" rifle different from an "assault" rifle, are merely cosmetic. Do cosmetic modifications such as a flash suppressor, pistol grip, folding stock, or bayonet lug, make a rifle fundamentally any different? The answer is no, but the Clinton Assault Weapons ban forbid these types of modifications.

I would encourage you to watch this 10 minute video. It's old, but still 100% accurate & extremely informative. If nothing else, please jump to 5:58. The presenter, a San Jose police officer, converts a "traditional rifle" into an "assault rifle," simply by changing some cosmetics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
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I can understand handguns and shot guns, but what is the reason to own a "military-style assault weapon?"

Really, just trying to understand here.

Same reason a person wants a 1000cc sport bike, Porsche or Ferrari. No real reason, speed limit is still 55, but.....

Hunt and pecking slows me down again, see Beks response above for a much clearer understanding.

One huge issue with the "military-style assault weapon" is the nailing down an exact definition of one. What constitutes military style? Simply the look or is it function based? Then exactly what "look" is categorized, or what function is limiting.

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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:54 PM
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Isn't there a ban in Chicago for handguns.... yeah, that has stopped a lot of people.

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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:56 PM
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Have fun using a bolt action rifle defending yourself and family against a semi auto rifle. They are defense weapons, not "assault weapons". If someone in that theater had a weapon to defend themselves with, the ending to that tragedy would have been different.

Better ban gasoline and bottles, allegedly the booklet Holmes used had plans for a fire bombing as well.
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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:57 PM
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:07 PM
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Thanks for the video Bek, I just watched the entire thing

I admit, I'm one of the clueless individuals the videos reference and had no idea that a hunting rifle and "military-style assault" rifle were essentially the same thing.

And for the record, I've never been against them, just didn't understand. I support the right the bear arms and hate any sort of legislation against it. I just wanted an explanation from someone that knew what they were talking about because it has been coming up a lot in the media.

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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:10 PM
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Have fun using a bolt action rifle defending yourself and family against a semi auto rifle. They are defense weapons, not "assault weapons". If someone in that theater had a weapon to defend themselves with, the ending to that tragedy would have been different.
Many standard hunting riffles are semi-auto they are not all bolt action.

If someone in that theater had a weapon to defend themselves the ending "might" have been different but it doesn't mean it could of or would have prevented any deaths in the hands of untrained gun handlers.

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave13 View Post
Have fun using a bolt action rifle defending yourself and family against a semi auto rifle. They are defense weapons, not "assault weapons". If someone in that theater had a weapon to defend themselves with, the ending to that tragedy would have been different.

Better ban gasoline and bottles, allegedly the booklet Holmes used had plans for a fire bombing as well.
How would you see who you were shooting after the guy threw tear gas out into the crowd?

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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:14 PM
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How would you see who you were shooting after the guy threw tear gas out into the crowd?


One can only hope and rely on every drop of training that they have. At that point you are only trying to increase your chances of survival. I know I would rather try than just give up.
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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:20 PM
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One can only hope and rely on every drop of training that they have. At that point you are only trying to increase your chances of survival. I know I would rather try than just give up.
What kind of training preps you for being tear gassed in a movie theater where a guy with a rifle is shooting into the crowd and you have to shoot him and not the hundred other people running around in complete panic?

I just reread this and it makes it sound like I'm being a condescending, prick, but I swear I'm not.

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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:28 PM
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What kind of training preps you for being tear gassed in a movie theater where a guy with a rifle is shooting into the crowd and you have to shoot him and not the hundred other people running around in complete panic?

I just reread this and it makes it sound like I'm being a condescending, prick, but I swear I'm not.

The desire to live.

The rest is muscle memorization and time at the range so if your moment comes your body will do it's best to take out the mark.




But with your thinking otherwise, What better choice is there? try and succeed or do nothing and die?
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:28 PM
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Which weapon is an "assault rifle"?





They both shoot the same ammo .22, are semi auto, and have a 10 round magazine.

So Quinn wants to ban on appearance?!?
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Allow me to address where "assault rifles" originally came from to begin with. History lesson time.

Back in WWII, the primary infantryman's weapon was a "battle rifle." There were variations amongst different countries, but generally speaking, WWII "battle rifles" were semi-automatic rifles that fired large bullets like the .308. Pros included great effective range (hundreds of yards) & harder hitting, with cons being greater bulk, greater weight, and ability to carry less ammunition per soldier due to the size & weight of the larger rounds. The next step below that were sub-machine guns, which fired pistol caliber rounds. These were generally smaller & handier, had relatively short effective range (< 100 yards), but greater ammunition capacity and were usually fully automatic.

In WWI, infantry warfare primarily entailed trench warfare. The environment was either great wide open spaces & range, or very up close and personal once inside an enemy's trench. Generally speaking, it was very static.

In WWII and after, infantry warfare evolved. Use of infantry became more dynamic again. Engagements were no longer happening at 300-500 yards, but at ranges of 300 yards or less... overkill for a battle rifle, but where a submachine gun was still worthless. The need arose for an intermediate class of firearm - thus the "true" assault rifle was born. The Germans manufactured the first "assault rifle" in WWII, and other countries followed suit thereafter. It was in the years following that the AK-47 and M-16 were born, which have evolved into the rifles of today.

So what differentiated these new "assault rifles" from traditional "battle rifles." The primary revolution was the adoption of an intermediate rifle caliber... one which offered a better trade-off between size, weight, & effective range. Assault rifles focused on being lighter and handier than their predecessors. A trademark cosmetic feature was added at this time, was a pistol grip, to increase the rifle's "handiness." Assault rifles also offered fully automatic functionality (ironically a mistake, but that's a different topic entirely). To take advantage of smaller bullets & the need for greater amounts of ammunition with the introduction of fully automatic fire, larger detachable magazines were also introduced.

I hope this, plus the video I posted, helps to shed some light on what an "assault rifle" REALLY is.
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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quinn wants to take advantage of the publicity available due to the tragedy. He has a podium and feels he should use it, while he can.

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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
How would you see who you were shooting after the guy threw tear gas out into the crowd?
I'd like to try and address this as well.

First, a very strong disclaimer... NONE OF US were there. Therefore, any statement we make about the conditions or circumstances are pure speculation. None of actually know if the gas used completely obscured all visibility & filled the ENTIRE theater with a thick fog. None of us actually know if the crowd all immediately panicked, took cover, ran, got in each others way, etc. Additionally keep in mind that a theater is very large... if you were seated up front, you could have been caught in the thick of the smoke whereas if you were seated in back, the gas may not have reached you... or was delayed... or... or... or...

And this is one reason why I despise armchair quarterbacking lethal scenarios.


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What kind of training preps you for being tear gassed in a movie theater where a guy with a rifle is shooting into the crowd and you have to shoot him and not the hundred other people running around in complete panic?
The most direct answer is nothing. The vast majority of armed civilians will never be exposed to this sort of extensive training. But the same goes for the vast majority of military veterans and law enforcement personnel either. Many argue that the Aurora tragedy would not have been prevented by the presence of an armed citizen. But do those same people believe that the presence of an armed police officer would have changed the outcome differently?

As riders, we attempt to "train" for dangerous situations... but we know that all of the parking lot training in the world, will not fully prepare someone for the dangers of street riding. The same goes for firearm training. But training does give you a chance... and in the grand scheme of things, chance is all we have to rely upon.

Let's pretend that there was someone armed, in the audience that tragic night... private citizen, off-duty officer, military veteran, it doesn't matter. That individual by mere chance, could have been surprised & the first person shot, thus being taken out of the fight immediately. By mere chance, that individual could have been seated at the far back end of the theater, where attempting to engage at 30-50 yards would have been ludicrous. By mere chance, that individual could have been seated fairly close to the Holmes and after Holmes began his rampage, could have attempted to engage and change the outcome. Chance then asks whether that individual might have been successful or not... whether others would still have gotten hurt or killed... etc.

There's only one and only ONE thing, that is assured, from the presence of an armed individual vs no armed individuals... that there was a CHANCE, that Holmes could have been stopped. Is that chance arguably small? Definitely... but chance... any chance at all... is better than absolute 0.

And training... is what we, as armed citizens, must constantly engage in, in order to further increase chance... the odds, in our favor.
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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:54 PM
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I believe one of the reasons the shooter picked the theater is that they have a "no weapons" sign. Less of a chance for resistance. If weapons were allowed, perhaps the shooter would not have attacked there.

Andy is spot on (as usual). We cannot speculate because we were not there.
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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:58 PM
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There's only one and only ONE thing, that is assured, from the presence of an armed individual vs no armed individuals... that there was a CHANCE, that Holmes could have been stopped. Is that chance arguably small? Definitely... but chance... any chance at all... is better than absolute 0.

And training... is what we, as armed citizens, must constantly engage in, in order to further increase chance... the odds, in our favor.

This was too well written. It needs fireworks at the end of everyone reading this post.





Well said, And you covered every corner that some hippy might have said, "what if" "what if" "what if the CCWP person had their shoes untied"


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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:11 PM
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^^ That said Rick, when was the last time you took the HK out and sent some 9mm down range?

I feel a pistol training day coming on.

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post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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^^ That said Rick, when was the last time you took the HK out and sent some 9mm down range?

I feel a pistol training day coming on.
You better fucking call me this time.
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post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:34 PM
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Banning assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines will make Illinois a safer place to live,” Quinn wrote.

Dats some funny chit - i guess it works in chicago where most are handgun killings!

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post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:45 PM
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I'd like to try and address this as well.

First, a very strong disclaimer... NONE OF US were there. Therefore, any statement we make about the conditions or circumstances are pure speculation. None of actually know if the gas used completely obscured all visibility & filled the ENTIRE theater with a thick fog. None of us actually know if the crowd all immediately panicked, took cover, ran, got in each others way, etc. Additionally keep in mind that a theater is very large... if you were seated up front, you could have been caught in the thick of the smoke whereas if you were seated in back, the gas may not have reached you... or was delayed... or... or... or...

And this is one reason why I despise armchair quarterbacking lethal scenarios.




The most direct answer is nothing. The vast majority of armed civilians will never be exposed to this sort of extensive training. But the same goes for the vast majority of military veterans and law enforcement personnel either. Many argue that the Aurora tragedy would not have been prevented by the presence of an armed citizen. But do those same people believe that the presence of an armed police officer would have changed the outcome differently?

As riders, we attempt to "train" for dangerous situations... but we know that all of the parking lot training in the world, will not fully prepare someone for the dangers of street riding. The same goes for firearm training. But training does give you a chance... and in the grand scheme of things, chance is all we have to rely upon.

Let's pretend that there was someone armed, in the audience that tragic night... private citizen, off-duty officer, military veteran, it doesn't matter. That individual by mere chance, could have been surprised & the first person shot, thus being taken out of the fight immediately. By mere chance, that individual could have been seated at the far back end of the theater, where attempting to engage at 30-50 yards would have been ludicrous. By mere chance, that individual could have been seated fairly close to the Holmes and after Holmes began his rampage, could have attempted to engage and change the outcome. Chance then asks whether that individual might have been successful or not... whether others would still have gotten hurt or killed... etc.

There's only one and only ONE thing, that is assured, from the presence of an armed individual vs no armed individuals... that there was a CHANCE, that Holmes could have been stopped. Is that chance arguably small? Definitely... but chance... any chance at all... is better than absolute 0.

And training... is what we, as armed citizens, must constantly engage in, in order to further increase chance... the odds, in our favor.
Another awesome post

I was actually going to edit my post to say that I hate playing the "what if" game as well, but got called down to the production floor.

Without being in the theater, it's impossible to say due to many circumstances like you listed (gas used, location in theater, crowd reaction, etc). The other is if someone could actually stand up and take action. Military, police, etc I'd believe, but like you said, there are a lot of armchair quarterbacks out there that say, "I would have stood up, gas in my face and put one right between his eyes!" (Note: this isn't mocking any one on here.)

If I were in that theater, I'd like to say that I would have done my best to assist and prevent people from getting hurt, but who knows, I could have been belly down on the ground, crying my eyes out asking for my mommy, I have no idea as I've never been in any sort of situation that could even come close.

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post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:48 PM
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post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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GAH!!!

Well, there is a huge difference between concealed carry and open carry. I am not going to touch the legal issues here, since I am not familiar with Colorado law.

I will briefly comment that I find open carry to be foolish and arrogant. The role of an armed civilian who carries a concealed weapon, your primary advantage is NOT your firearm, but that of the element of surprise.

One common argument for Open Carry is that it acts as a visual deterrent. But then you have individuals who are not familiar with local laws, who act on fear, and freak out like this. Or you have criminals who might see you're armed and target YOU first - removing one of your advantages and granting them an advantage of possible pre-emptive strike.
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post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 02:59 PM
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(Note: this isn't mocking any one on here.)
Are you sure?

During my college years I worked as loss prevention officer for Jewel. I think my second week on the job we got held up by two masked armed man. I was armed with a two way radio to the local police department and hand cuffs. During the whole ordeal I was about 30 feet away from the action, and all I could think of is that my radio would not squelch. I discretely turned the volume down and just waited for it to be over and then to secure the crime scene as I was trained to do.

This was probably 15 years before I ever held a gun. I know that in the situation I was in, even if I was carrying, I would not have been in a situation to do anything else. There were too many people that could have gotten hurt by the suspects returning fire or a possible hostage situation. Obviously this is totally different then being faced with someone that is killing people randomly and if that were the case a different approach would have been warranted. Anyways, I do not really have a point, but just felt like sharing.

Oh, I did not soil myself, but it was pretty damn scary.

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post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 03:02 PM
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You better fucking call me this time.
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^^ That said Rick, when was the last time you took the HK out and sent some 9mm down range?

Raven, Schedule it up! I am free anytime
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post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bek View Post
GAH!!!

Well, there is a huge difference between concealed carry and open carry. I am not going to touch the legal issues here, since I am not familiar with Colorado law.

I will briefly comment that I find open carry to be foolish and arrogant. The role of an armed civilian who carries a concealed weapon, your primary advantage is NOT your firearm, but that of the element of surprise.

One common argument for Open Carry is that it acts as a visual deterrent. But then you have individuals who are not familiar with local laws, who act on fear, and freak out like this. Or you have criminals who might see you're armed and target YOU first - removing one of your advantages and granting them an advantage of possible pre-emptive strike.
Interesting point, I pondered the benefits of both. I thought about the freak-out element, but not the others. Thanks.

Greg

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post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 03:03 PM
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This an honest question, not trying to troll or anything (seriously for once).

But myself not being a gun expert, what is the defense to this statement?



I can understand handguns and shot guns, but what is the reason to own a "military-style assault weapon?"

Really, just trying to understand here.
Its to hunt down modern animals like the flying squirrel and the electric eel.

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post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Oh, I did not soil myself, but it was pretty damn scary.
Did you know that you soil yourself, not because you're afraid/scared? Rather, it is one of your body's natural "preparations" when faced with a lethal situation. Your body is dumping waste, to mitigate the risk of infection, if you suffer internal injury. I find it fascinating that humans have evolved in such a manner, that our bodies do this to help save our lives!
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