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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-30-2007, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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NFA AOW legal in IL? Will County...

I am thinking about putting a fore-grip on my Vector MP5 pistol or my future (on the waiting list) V51 pistol. This would make it an AOW. Some of the regs. I've seen (on a state-by-state basis) say that AOWs are A-OK in IL.

Anyone have any input?

If this is legal does anyone have an FFL that would understand what I am doing and be willing to help me process the paperwork for the tax stamp?

TIA,

Joe

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Last edited by JPKII; 12-30-2007 at 05:56 PM.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-30-2007, 09:50 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get the tax stamp dont you have to grant access to for them to search your home any time they want?




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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get the tax stamp dont you have to grant access to for them to search your home any time they want?
If you are a class III FFL or SOT then for sure. Private citizens that own NFA weapons the law says no but ATF seems to have ways around it. Here is a quote:

NFA WEAPONS AND THE 4TH AMENDMENT

As to surrendering your 4th amendment (search and seizure)
rights, this is definitely true when one gets a Federal Firearms
License. The law allows the ATF to inspect your records and
inventory once every 12 months without any cause, and at any
point during the course of a bona fide criminal investigation (18
USC sec. 923(g)). They may inspect without warning during
business hours. The only modification of the above pertains to
the C&R FFL (type 03) where ATF must schedule the inspection,
(C&R FFL holders do not have business hours) and they must have
the inspection at their office nearest the C&R FFL holders
premises, if the holder so requests. ATF may look around the
licensed premises for other weapons not on your records. This
means they take the position that if your licensed premises are
your home they may search it, as part of the annual compliance
inspection. The constitutionality of the warrantless
"administrative search" of licensees provided for in the Gun
Control Act has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, see U.S. v.
Biswell, 406 U.S. 311 (1972). Biswell was partially overturned
by Congress by 1986 changes to the requirements for a warrant
under the GCA, but the administrative search provisions remain.

In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the
right to enter onto your business premises, during business
hours, to verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to
that effect is found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is
apparently based upon 26 USC sec. 7606:

7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable
objects.
(a) Entry during day.
The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building
or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are
made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for
the purpose of examining said articles or objects.
(b) Entry at night.
When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may
enter them while so open, in the performance of his official
duties.
(c) Penalties
For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see
section 7342.

As 26 USC sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to
permit entry under section 7606 it is worth a look:

7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination.
Any owner of any building or place, or person having the
agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit
any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting
under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of
premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to
permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for
every such refusal, forfeit $500.

They claims this right extends to examining your business
records, and firearms. This would only apply to your NFA
firearms, although they could presumably examine other guns to
make sure they were not NFA firearms, and subject to the law.
This is not subject to the controls found in the GCA, noted
above, as the legal basis for the search is not found there.
So they could claim a right to do this sort of search once a
month, or once a week. I am not aware of any current abuse of
the authority under this section. While the regulation made by
ATF only applies this authority to SOT's, the statute itself is
not so limited. At least one court case has suggested this
power is available to search an FFL holder who is not an SOT.
(U.S. v. Palmer, 435 F.2d 653 (1st Cir. 1970)).

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns
weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law seems
clear, but practice is a little murky. ATF may only compel you
to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that
is the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used
to register the weapon. See 26 USC sec. 5841(e). They do not
have any right to compel you to show them the weapon. However
they apparently (I have no first hand knowledge) take the
position that they can compel one to show ATF the weapon upon
request, even if the owner has no FFL. As always the Fourth
amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other place
of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without a
warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court
has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment. They
should also need a warrant to compel a non-FFL holder to show
them the weapon, and I would insist upon that, myself

Web site source: http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

....Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by JPKII; 01-01-2008 at 11:10 AM.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Here is the IL Gun Laws:

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...ode+of+1961%2E

It's not mentioned so it is legal. Now I need an FFL that will help me with the paperwork.

Big thanks to bhale187 on HKPro.com for helping me out!!

Happy New Year!!!

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

....Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by JPKII; 01-01-2008 at 11:08 AM.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 01:02 AM
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wah wah?


can you give more details to what your doing etc?

got a little lost, teach the noob, lotsa letters there i dont catch,


NFA AOW?

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReBReTHa View Post
wah wah?


can you give more details to what your doing etc?

got a little lost, teach the noob, lotsa letters there i dont catch,


NFA AOW?
NFA =National Firearms Act

AOW= Any Other Weapon

SBR= Short Barrel Rifle

Class 3= Big bad weapons like rifles with less than 16 inch barrels, rifles with pistol grips and no buttstock, shotguns/rifles with forward grips of certain lengths, Fully automatic weapons, Suppressors, etc.


He's asking if he can put a front grip on his HK MP5 look alike. This puts it into the classification of AOW, there is a $5 tax stamp required to sell it and you must be class 3 allowed. SBRs and Suppressors and the like have a $200 tax added to their price to sell/buy.

This is where owning guns goes from being a $400 to get started and hit the range a few times hobby to a I own a $50,000 rifle and can arm a small country's military hobby... aka, this is where your name becomes Ofc.Ponch.

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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 02:21 AM
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Yea, I was getting thrown off because SBR intrigues me so I learned that you need to be class III

I started learning a little bit about class III because I really wanted a suppressor for home protection. If a gun goes off in my house with my wife in it her hearing is gone completly a suppressor to lessen it would make a big difference.

such a rough situation on which is the worse scenario, be patient and see what the BGs intentions are. Is the BG armed and intending to use, or finalize the situation with the BG and not have to find out later what his intentions were.

I am trying to learn anything and everything I can!!!


Always keep ears open!

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 02:46 AM
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No go for any sort of sound suppressor in Illinois. This is why I'm selling my 92FS with the threaded barrel... gonna fund either a custom Rem 870 project or a 1911.

Brian
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartDrug View Post
He's asking if he can put a front grip on his HK MP5 look alike. This puts it into the classification of AOW, there is a $5 tax stamp required to sell it and you must be class 3 allowed.
Right on...

Actually I am going to do this on the V51 Pistol I have on order. It's got a 7" barrel and fires .308. It needs a little help to control the bucking bronco. lol.

It's here: http://vectorarms.com/shop/index.php...&products_id=2


Why do I want something like that? Two reason: 1. Because it's way tacticool and 2. Because someday I'm going to move to Indiana where I can have some real fun (provided the commander in chief lets me spend $15K on the auto sear and trigger pack).

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

....Abraham Lincoln
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPKII View Post
Right on...

Actually I am going to do this on the V51 Pistol I have on order. It's got a 7" barrel and fires .308. It needs a little help to control the bucking bronco. lol.

It's here: http://vectorarms.com/shop/index.php...&products_id=2


Why do I want something like that? Two reason: 1. Because it's way tacticool and 2. Because someday I'm going to move to Indiana where I can have some real fun (provided the commander in chief lets me spend $15K on the auto sear and trigger pack).


That's a badass looking pistol and it's gonna look even cooler with that forward pistol grip. I have heard from a couple guys with Vectors on AR15.com that while they're cool looking firearms (the MP5 looks badass), they're not the most reliable pieces and should not be used for home defense.

Have you seen the Kel Tec PLR-16, you could go a similar route, pretty cool looking too. Like a mix between a n AR15 and an AK, and it uses AR-15 magazines for simplicity.





EDIT: It's also about $600 cheaper, so you can afford all the toys (forward grips, slings, 100 round magazines) and tax stamps and still have money saved up for the real deal HK MP5 for when you're in Indy.

Brian
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2008, 02:53 AM
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So you've piqued my interest, what's the verdict on this? Did you pick it up? Are SBR weapons allowed in Illinois?

EDIT: I found this and apparently, No, SBR firearms are not allowed in the State of Illinois:

720 ILCS 5/24-1 A-7-ii


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

Bummer, either way, tell us what you do.

I'm buying a rifle in the not too distant as well.

Brian
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2008, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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I have another 5 weeks before Vector produces it. Vector will not produce it as an AOW for me. So once I receive it and work it thru it's growing pains (break in period) I'll start the paperwork. I still need to find an FFL that will help me out with the paperwork for the AOW.

It won't be anytime before spring until the monster appears. From what I understand it takes the ATF about 6 to 12 weeks to process the paperwork (this is for an SBR, etc.) and I am assuming the AOW would go thru the same steps.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

....Abraham Lincoln
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