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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Gun Ban-read it through-discuss

This is a copy/paste
--------------------------

It is now closer to reality than you think

You're sound asleep when you hear a thump outside your bedroom door. Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you hear muffled whispers. At least two people have broken into your house and are moving your way. With your heart pumping, you reach down beside your bed and pick up your shotgun. You rack a shell into the chamber, then inch toward the door and open it. In the darkness, you make out two shadows.

One holds something that looks like a crowbar. When the intruder brandishes it as if to strike, you raise the shotgun and fire. The blast knocks both thugs to the floor. One writhes and screams while the second man crawls to the front door and lurches outside. As you pick up the telephone to call police, you know you're in trouble.

In your country, most guns were outlawed years before, and the few that are privately owned are so stringently regulated as to make them useless. Yours was never registered. Police arrive and inform you that the second burglar has died. They arrest you for First Degree Murder and Illegal Possession of a Firearm. When you talk to your attorney, he tells you not to worry: authorities will probably plea the case down to manslaughter.

"What kind of sentence will I get?" you ask.

"Only ten-to-twelve years," he replies, as if that's nothing. "Behave yourself, and you'll be out in seven."

The next day, the shooting is the lead story in the local newspaper. Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric vigilante while the two men you shot are represented as choirboys. Their friends and relatives can't find an unkind word to say about them. Buried deep down in the article, authorities acknowledge that both "victims" have been arrested numerous times. But the next day's headline says it all: "Lovable Rogue Son Didn't Deserve to Die." The thieves have been transformed from career criminals into Robin Hood-type pranksters. As the days wear on, the story takes wings. The national media picks it up, then the international media. The surviving burglar has become a folk hero.

Your attorney says the thief is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably win. The media publishes reports that your home has been burglarized several times in the past and that you've been critical of local police for their lack of effort in apprehending the suspects. After the last break-in, you told your neighbor that you would be prepared next time. The District Attorney uses this to allege that you were lying in wait for the burglars.

A few months later, you go to trial. The charges haven't been reduced, as your lawyer had so confidently predicted. When you take the stand, your anger at the injustice of it all works against you. Prosecutors paint a picture of you as a mean, vengeful man. It doesn't take long for the jury to convict you of all charges.

The judge sentences you to life in prison.

This case really happened.

On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, Norfolk , England , killed one burglar and wounded a second. In April, 2000, he was convicted and is now serving a life term.

How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?

It started with the Pistols Act of 1903. This seemingly reasonable law forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and established that handgun sales were to be made only to those who had a license. The Firearms Act of 1920 expanded licensing to include not only handguns but all firearms except shotguns.

Later laws passed in 1953 and 1967 outlawed the carrying of any weapon by private citizens and mandated the registration of all shotguns.

Momentum for total handgun confiscation began in earnest after the Hungerford mass shooting in 1987. Michael Ryan, a mentally disturbed Man with a Kalashnikov rifle (AK-47), walked down the streets shooting everyone he saw. When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead.

The British public, already de-sensitized by eighty years of "gun control", demanded even tougher restrictions. (The seizure of all privately owned handguns was the objective even though Ryan used a rifle.)

Nine years later, at Dunblane , Scotland , Thomas Hamilton used a semi-automatic weapon to murder 16 children and a teacher at a public school.

For many years, the media had portrayed all gun owners as mentally unstable, or worse, criminals. Now the press had a real kook with which to beat up law-abiding gun owners. Day after day, week after week, the media gave up all pretense of objectivity and demanded a total ban on all handguns. The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months later, sealed the fate of the few sidearm still owned by private citizens.

During the years in which the British government incrementally took away most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had the right to armed self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism. Authorities refused to grant gun licenses to people who were threatened, claiming that self-defense was no longer considered a reason to own a gun. Citizens who shot burglars or robbers or rapists were charged while the real criminals were released.

Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police spokesman was quoted as saying, "We cannot have people take the law into their own hands."

All of Martin's neighbors had been robbed numerous times, and several elderly people were severely injured in beatings by young thugs who had no fear of the consequences. Martin himself, a collector of antiques, had seen most of his collection trashed or stolen by burglars.

When the Dunblane Inquiry ended, citizens who owned handguns were given three months to turn them over to local authorities. Being good British subjects, most people obeyed the law. The few who didn't were visited by police and threatened with ten-year prison sentences if they didn't comply. Police later bragged that they'd taken nearly 200,000 handguns from private citizens.

How did the authorities know who had handguns? The guns had been registered and licensed. Kinda like cars.

Sound familiar?

WAKE UP AMERICA , THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS PUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."

--Samuel Adams

Mike

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:31 PM
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good read




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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:47 PM
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Good read indeed.

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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 11:17 PM
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We may be on the way there

http://volokh.com/posts/1227228105.shtml

Good discussion of the new top Federal prosecutor's views on guns and gun owners.

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 11:21 PM
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Not to be a pest, but I don't think that story is completely true.

I had to look it up on Wiki cause I couldn't remember all the details, but Tony Martin didn't call the police, he fled the scene, went to his mom's to hide to gun and stayed at a hotel for the night. Police ended up finding the body.

And he only served 3 years.

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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
Not to be a pest, but I don't think that story is completely true.

I had to look it up on Wiki cause I couldn't remember all the details, but Tony Martin didn't call the police, he fled the scene, went to his mom's to hide to gun and stayed at a hotel for the night. Police ended up finding the body.

And he only served 3 years.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...472833,00.html

Quote:
Brendan Fearon, whom Martin wounded in the leg, was released from prison just days before Martin. Fearon was given a discharge after serving just six of his most recent 18-month sentence for dealing heroin. Martin was refused early parole on the grounds that he had not shown remorse for what he had done and could be a danger to society. Fearon had some 34 convictions when he drove 90 km to rob Martin, but a judge gave him permission in June to use tax-funded legal aid to sue Martin for $24,000 because the gunshot wounds had affected his sex life, earning ability and enjoyment of martial arts.
Hows that for justice?

I didn't find anything about Martin fleeing. The story was that the robbers were fleeing when he shot 'em.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 11:34 PM
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Don't know where it came from, but Wiki says this:

Quote:
Martin subsequently left the farm and fled to his mother's house, where he hid the firearm. Later that evening, he arrived at a local inn and stayed for the night. Barras was later found dead in the grounds by a police dog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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regardless - its food for thought

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 08:39 AM
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just to throw it out there...think it'd be effective (if possible to obtain) those tazer shotgun rounds? I'm not sure it is always right to kill a burglar, but yes, i'd rather have some protection. Would most of you outright shoot someone burglarizing your home if they themselves had no gun?

That's the only problem I see with owning a gun for home protection, it seems like you could have a problem providing sufficient evidence that such force was necessary after the fact (unless there's bullet holes in you/your family, or riddling your walls)

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 08:55 AM
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Insticts will guide actions in a scenario you discibed.



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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:07 AM
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There are other lethal weapons that one can have in the house that are not on the radar screen of the legislators.

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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexraptor View Post
just to throw it out there...think it'd be effective (if possible to obtain) those tazer shotgun rounds? I'm not sure it is always right to kill a burglar, but yes, i'd rather have some protection. Would most of you outright shoot someone burglarizing your home if they themselves had no gun?

That's the only problem I see with owning a gun for home protection, it seems like you could have a problem providing sufficient evidence that such force was necessary after the fact (unless there's bullet holes in you/your family, or riddling your walls)
The statute is pretty clear:
720 ILCS 5/7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling


Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article [720 ILCS 5/7-4], or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.

In Illinois, like most states, IF they decided to charge you then the standard for showing self-defense is by a preponderance of the evidence. Thats just fancy lawyer talk for "more likely than not."


All the paranoia about getting prosecuted for defending your home against a burglar or intruder is a bunch of nonsense. Fortunately, the US is not as retarded as our European counterparts. And you don't have to worry about getting sued either.

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Last edited by Rob, Esq.; 11-21-2008 at 09:28 AM.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
All the paranoia about getting prosecuted for defending your home against a burglar or intruder is a bunch of nonsense. Fortunately, the US is not as retarded as our European counterparts. And you don't have to worry about getting sued either.
yet




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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
yet
Its possible.
However, the trend has been toward more tolerance of self-defense. 20 years ago few states had CCW laws. Today, IL is one of 2 left that don't allow it in some form.
More and more states have adopted the Castle Doctrine and explicit statutory denials of civil causes of action for injured intruders.


Yet, I worry that the next 4 years we'll see a reversal of the trends of the last 20 years or so. Obama and his admin have a miles-long track record of opposing gun rights (the means of self-defense) and being generally hostile to citizens acting in self-defense. Just because the trend is in our favor doesn't mean its time to sit back. The left has and will continue to push back, usually with specious arguments (cue Arch) that a passive, ignorant populace just might accept. Take a look at the renewed interest in the AWB. The original didn't change crime rates, and when it expired crime rates actually went down. Still, you have morons like Daley and Boxer and the like prattling on about how they're such a huge threat, bla bla bla.

The growth of the nanny state is all-encompassing. When people are trained to give up personal responsibility for themselves and rely on gov't for jobs, healthcare, and everything else, its natural that they'll look to it for protection too.



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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
The statute is pretty clear:
720 ILCS 5/7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling


Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article [720 ILCS 5/7-4], or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.

In Illinois, like most states, IF they decided to charge you then the standard for showing self-defense is by a preponderance of the evidence. Thats just fancy lawyer talk for "more likely than not."


All the paranoia about getting prosecuted for defending your home against a burglar or intruder is a bunch of nonsense. Fortunately, the US is not as retarded as our European counterparts. And you don't have to worry about getting sued either.

Rob,

Speaking as a soon to be lawyer..
Is it true you're better off killing them than wounding them?
I know you said you don't have to worry about being sued.. but.. yes you do.. people can sue for anything.. and they often do.

That said.. even if they are killed.. the family can sue.

Oh and on the "less lethal" protection front.. I have been been considering myself .. I live on the 3rd floor but it's really closer in height to a standard 4th floor... Out back goes down 1 level into the garage (and has a dumpster to aim for) ... If I catch someone in my house I am going to pick them up and toss them off my balcony.

At least that's my plan.. I figure it's good up to about a 300lb criminal.. but I doubt any 300+ lb criminals would be robbing a 3rd floor walkup.. Maybe if we had an elevator.

That said.. My neighbors downstairs got robbed the other day... That really sucks... Assholes got a # of very old heirlooms.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gconsier View Post
Rob,

Speaking as a soon to be lawyer..
Is it true you're better off killing them than wounding them?
I know you said you don't have to worry about being sued.. but.. yes you do.. people can sue for anything.. and they often do.

That said.. even if they are killed.. the family can sue.

Oh and on the "less lethal" protection front.. I have been been considering myself .. I live on the 3rd floor but it's really closer in height to a standard 4th floor... Out back goes down 1 level into the garage (and has a dumpster to aim for) ... If I catch someone in my house I am going to pick them up and toss them off my balcony.

At least that's my plan.. I figure it's good up to about a 300lb criminal.. but I doubt any 300+ lb criminals would be robbing a 3rd floor walkup.. Maybe if we had an elevator.

That said.. My neighbors downstairs got robbed the other day... That really sucks... Assholes got a # of very old heirlooms.

The family can't sue, as long as you were in the rght (using common sense)

" In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article [720 ILCS 5/7-4], or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct."

The robber, if alive, has no claim. If dead, neither does his family or estate.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:07 AM
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:09 AM
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I see the statue you quote in black and white and yes the civil suit should not be allowed, I just wonder if the stories that you hear are just myth or are there technicalities that would allow a civil suite.

I guess, one thought in favor of killing the burglar, is that he would not be alive to lie in his testimony saying that he was in your house to do some kind of good dead and you shot him.

Also, California has some liberal laws on the books but when OJ was acquited, the family of the victims sued in civil court and won. How was that allowed?

Just my thoughts on the subject,
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:18 AM
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I see the statue you quote in black and white and yes the civil suit should not be allowed, I just wonder if the stories that you hear are just myth or are there technicalities that would allow a civil suite.

I guess, one thought in favor of killing the burglar, is that he would not be alive to lie in his testimony saying that he was in your house to do some kind of good dead and you shot him.

Also, California has some liberal laws on the books but when OJ was acquited, the family of the victims sued in civil court and won. How was that allowed?

Just my thoughts on the subject,
Greg
If he broke in your house to "commit a good deed" it wouldn't matter, since the standard is a subjective one. If the homeowner reasonably believed there was a threat, case closed. It doesn't matter what the burglar's intent was. If he came in in such a way that a reasonable person would perceive it as a threat, its justifiable.

And who would actually believe that someone broke in to do your dishes for you?

The OJ thing wasn't based on a defense of home situation. Totally different case than someone shooting a home intruder.

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:19 AM
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:28 AM
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and the cameras on ever fucking corner...
look around




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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:29 AM
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Send a message via AIM to Rob, Esq. Send a message via MSN to Rob, Esq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
look around
We're not that far away here

Attorney-at-Law: Doing my part to contribute to the downfall of western society.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:29 AM
bwa
Boom
 
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Kalispell, MT
Posts: 13,320
Location: Kalispell, MT
Sportbike: None :(
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Crazeinc
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
look around
dude, I'm in delaWHERE? They haven't discovered cameras yet!

And seriously, even in the most concentrated areas where we have cameras don't come even close to England.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:43 AM
Slower Traffic Keep Right
 
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Kenosha, WI
Posts: 3,755
Location: Kenosha, WI
Sportbike: '06 Suzuki GSXR-750 (Track); '11 HD Electra Glide (Road Sofa)
Years Riding: 30+ yrs total
How you found us: A friend at NESBA
           
No matter what happens, I'm not turning in anything. I'll just take my chances with the court system. As long as the intruders don't achieve their intended mission to rob/harm my family, then I will have achieved mine.

If nothing else, I could always use one of the K-Bar's or the Katana

Midwest Track Day CR #130
NESBA 130-Control Rider (Former Midwest Region)
STT "A" 130
Track: 2006 GSXR-750
Street: 2011 H-D Ultra Limited (Road Sofa)

www.MidwestTrackDay.com / www.MidwestTrackDay.motorsportreg.com / www.facebook.com/midwesttrackday

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