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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Creatine, when to take it

Perhaps I am just a freak, but it seems that most creatine products say to take it right after a workout. But for some reason I get nothing out of it, not to mention that's when I typically take my protein. I found that taking creatine about 30 min before my workout gives me nice pumps and more drive. Anyone else. I ask because today while buying some protein and vitamins I got suckered into buying some "ON" Nitro product and a Creatine ester one. Basically got one for 75% off when bought together. The Nitro product says to take it 1 hr before workout and the creatine says to take it after. I may try to follow their suggestion but creatine never did anything for me after.

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 02:35 PM
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Creatine sucks.
Thx to that stuff your muscles suck a lots of water.
You think you build a nice one but this is only a optical illusion.
Once you stop taking that shit you are going to pee every 10 minutes.
And nice round muscles are gone.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c2000
Creatine sucks.
Thx to that stuff your muscles suck a lots of water.
You think you build a nice one but this is only a optical illusion.
Once you stop taking that shit you are going to pee every 10 minutes.
And nice round muscles are gone.
Never had a bloat problem with Creatine ester, must have it confused with D-bol That shit gives you the shrinking man syndrome and water shed after you stop........or so I hear

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 03:06 PM
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as suggested here when i was on this stuff creatine right after then protein 45mins to an hour after that, once you get in the groove with this schedule youll be less fatigued for the next days workout and will start to bulk up, the thing about these suppliments is they allow you to recover faster and the creatine does increase the capacity you have to store water amnogst other things and then the protein "feeds" your muscles, taking it after the workout as suggested provides them with the fuel when they need it most allowing them to grow. But as with anyworkout program if you want to see real results you have to push yourself extremely hard to achieve big results. hope that helps
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 06:30 PM
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I personally think that all of these supplements are pretty much useless unless you are eating properly. Vegetables, chicken breast, complex carbs, and whole grains and almost forgot - lots of water. You will probably get more from that than from supplements, but that's my opinion.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c2000
Creatine sucks.
Thx to that stuff your muscles suck a lots of water.
You think you build a nice one but this is only a optical illusion.
Once you stop taking that shit you are going to pee every 10 minutes.
And nice round muscles are gone.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimzx9r
You have no idea what you're talking about.
amen to that

this stuff is by no means some magical powder that will make you bigger, it just gives you the proper tools to allow you to work out longer and train harder to get big, and no the muscles arent water inflated
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 12:13 AM
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here we go again...





take it any time of day, just be consistent with it. Dont skip just because you're not working out. Cycle on and off, lots of debate on cycle times. Figure out what works for you.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 12:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vcook
here we go again...





take it any time of day, just be consistent with it. Dont skip just because you're not working out. Cycle on and off, lots of debate on cycle times. Figure out what works for you.
You're always a few minute ahead of me.

Yea, what he said. Whenever you want...the time is less important than you think.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 07:36 AM
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So basically what you are saying is that there is no 'best' time to take creatine to get the desired effect?

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .:K2:.
So basically what you are saying is that there is no 'best' time to take creatine to get the desired effect?
That's what I am hearing too, but then I cannot explain the better pumps I get while taking it 30 min. pre-workout. Everyone's body reacts different I guess.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 08:04 AM
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The 'best' time to take creatine is never. Stop shortcutting your body and just do it the right (natural) way:

Sleep
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Eat
Sleep

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 09:42 AM
 
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Most likely, the pumps you're getting could be the sugar that you're injesting at the time you take the creatine. One of the most likely explanations is simply placebo. If you think it's working then it is. Creatine gets used on a cellular level. Taking it 30 minutes before a workout ain't gonna do it. We know that creatine takes time to work which explains why there's a loading phase for several days when you first start using it.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach
The 'best' time to take creatine is never. Stop shortcutting your body and just do it the right (natural) way:

Sleep
Lift
Eat
Sleep
Tough argument. Not very natural to workout in a gym either. Wanna stick to natural then we should be walking and running a lot as well as swimmin, and not really lifting. We should also be working our balance and agility by hunting and gathering. I get what you're saying, but really there's very little that we do that is truly considered natural. In this case, it's the end goal that we're seeking.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 11:49 AM
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I agree, going to the gym is 'unnatural', but we don't live caves and lug rocks around anymore, hence the reason the average person isn't chiseled like a Greek God.

but, I still think the hardgainer approach is best. I was much stronger when I worked out a lot, I never got 'big' and never will be, my body is unique and trying to get 'pumped' to look like other people isn't what it should be about.

Weightlifting should be about retaining your muscular system as you age and pushing muscles to breakdown and repair as they were designed. Not about artificially retaining water in them to 'look' bigger. A fit body isn't necessarily a strong, healthy body.

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach
Not about artificially retaining water in them to 'look' bigger.
If you think this is what creatine is for, then you're sorely mistaken.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 01:04 PM
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Shadrach & Biggy:

Both of you have good points but what we are missing here is a good list of benefits & the down sides of using creatine. According to Sandrach you retain water when using creatine, is that such a bad thing? Is that the only ‘side effect’ of using creatine? Biggy; what are the exact benefits of using creatine?

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 01:25 PM
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a pretty basic summary: (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/creatine.htm)


Phosphocreatine (the phosphorylated form of Creatine) provides the means of regenerating small quantities of ATP extremely rapidly, so boosting short duration activities. Muscles are much less prone to fatigue and the capacity to undertake strenuous exercise is increased. Activities such as repetition weight training, short sprints, repeated bounding and jumping are all enhanced and therefore the quality of training increases which feeds into higher competitive performances. Studies made with middle distance athletes also seem to point to improvement.


Source
Creatine is both made by the body (from amino acids arginine, glycine and methionine) and gained from the diet. It occurs naturally in meats and fish. An athlete who is a big meat eater may have in his muscle five grams of creatine per kilogram of muscle, which is near the upper limit. This same athlete must take in approximately 2.5g of creatine per day to replace the natural degradation of creatine that takes place each day.

If you were to survey athletes you would find that there would be a wide variation in creatine content with some athletes having as little as three grams per kilogram of muscle, especially vegetarians and those people who are less active in sport. Those with low creatine content may be at a disadvantage since creatine has been described as the oil of the muscle engine which makes the muscle work more efficiently. Since very few athletes are at the top end of the scale (4.5- 5g/kg) supplementation will help to increase the creatine content in the muscles.

How much?
Much of the early work was based on supplementing creatine in five gram doses, four times a day for five days, then using two to three grams per day to maintain the enhanced levels. Studies based upon this level of supplementation observed rises in muscle creatine that resulted in an increased power output of about 5 - 7 per cent, presumably due to enhanced phosphocreatine levels. Manufacturers will claim significant increases in performances but in my experience the increases are varied, from no effect at all to very significant increases.

Those at the bottom end of natural creatine muscle content will benefit the most whereas those at the upper end of the scale will have no benefit since it appears impossible to increase very high levels of creatine in the muscle. Perhaps those athletes who eat very low amounts (or none) of fish and meat will be the ones who benefit the most. Vegetarians who supplement with creatine may experience significant improvements. Athletes in the explosive events (sprints, jumps, throws) are likely to experience the most improvement but in the middle distance events in which phosphocreatine plays a small but important role the benefit of creatine supplementation has yet to be finally established. Latest research points to the body being unable to absorb large amounts of creatine into the muscle and it appears that five gram intakes will largely find their way into the urine rather than into the muscle.

It is now recommended that two to three gram intakes four times a day for 10 days will lead to less being eliminated in the urine, or a regime of three gram twice a day for 20 days may he equally beneficial. After such 'loading' intakes a maintenance dose of perhaps only two gram per day is needed. For best effects creatine should not be taken all year round and periods of no supplementation should be included in the annual cycle. To bring about a rapid elevation in the muscle creatine content, supplementation is best taken either before or after training itself. At other times of the day creatine should be co-ingested with a source of carbohydrate which is effective in elevating blood insulin levels, e.g. a Mars bar. There appears to be no long term effect in taking creatine supplements although it must be pointed out that the longest study, thus far is for only one-and-a-half' years.

Side effects
Since creatine is a natural component of the human diet athletes would therefore encounter creatine in the normal diet on a daily basis throughout their lives and there should be no harmful side effects. There appear to be some problems experienced by a minority of sprinters when loading with creatine in the form of muscle cramps and this may be related to the amount of the creatine supplemented. Athletes must experiment with the amount of creatine they need - more is not necessarily better and 'less may be best' in certain individuals.

Conclusion
Creatine, introduced and established in the nineties, will be with us into the next century, but further studies are needed to prove just how beneficial it is to athletes and in which events. The current advertising by commercial producers of creatine almost certainly exaggerates the benefits of creatine but it appears that some, if not all, adult athletes will benefit from creatine supplementation.


Creatine boosts muscle power
Investigations at the University of Nottingham show that five days of creatine supplementation can boost muscle power and performance during intense strength training ("Creatine Ingestion and Exercise Performance", International Journal of Sports Medicine, vol. 14, p. 297, 1993). In the Nottingham study, 12 athletes carried out five bouts of 30 maximal contractions of the quadriceps muscles before and after five days of placebo or creatine ingestion. The creatine was consumed in five-gram doses, four times per day (20 grams total per day). After the five days, the placebo-group athletes achieved no gains in muscle power, but creatine ingesters boosted muscle strength considerably during all five bouts of exercise.

Loading Strategies
Roger Harris, Professor of Sports Science at the University College of Chichester indicates that the traditional dosage of 20 gram per day, in 5 gram doses, may not be the most cost effective method. This amount of creatine (5 grams) cannot be picked up all at once by the muscles and as much as two-thirds can end up in the kidneys to be expelled in your urine. Meat products are natural dietary sources of creatine and a pound of raw beef contains about 1.8 grams. When we eat meat the creatine is absorbed gradually into the muscles with very little being lost in the urine. Perhaps the approach is to take small amounts of creatine and to mix it with other food. Research has shown that taking 3 grams of creatine a day over a 30 day period produces about as much creatine storage as a 20 gram/day strategy. It is also considered that the 3 gram/day strategy will reduce the amount of water retention and weight gain. To reduce cost, minimise side effects and yet obtain the benefits from creatine then perhaps a possible strategy to enhance creatine levels is to:

purchase a basic inexpensive creatine powder
take a daily dose of 3 grams or so a day over a 30 day period
take half a gram to a gram at one time sprinkled on your food
A maintenance dose of creatine would probably be about 3 to 4 grams per day and a dose of 9 grams per day could be appropriate for the seven days leading up to a major competition.

Side Effects
Since this page has been available on my web site I have received feedback from a number of athletes who have experienced negative side effects whilst taking creatine. They have experienced:

a significant increase in muscle swelling due to the storage of more water around the muscles - this has the potential to increase the chances of injury, especially between muscle and tendon connections
leg tendons (calf) have tightened up considerably and with reduced circulation, restricted by the swelling in the calf muscle, has led to numb feet
Nausea
Cramp possibly due to water retention
Dizziness if excessive quantities taken
Diarrhoea
If you experience these side effects then possible solutions may be:

to use a very small quantity (3 grams) maybe every other day
not to use creatine

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/creatine.htm
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 01:38 PM
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from personal experience:

you will need to drink a lot of water. I experienced cramping of muscles not normally prone to cramping (face, stomach, and other small muscle groups). basically all the water in my body was being stored in the major muscle groups to aid in the recovery process.
as a side effect of the extra water, you will need to piss every 5 minutes.

I saw major strength and muscle mass gain during loading phases. during off cycles, I did not see a loss of strength or size. muscle that is gained thru protein and creatine supplementation is "natural" muscle that will remain as long as you continue to workout.

recovery time is decreased, both day to day, and in between sets. a few seconds after finishing a strenuous set you'll feel ready to attack the next one.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 01:45 PM
 
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Benefits? Long story short you get stronger muscular contractions which results in the opportunity to gain strength and mass more quickly. The whole actin/myosin thing (no idea if I spelled those correctly) is improved. Water retention plays a role and is not necessarily a bad thing.

It's real simple, if you're just starting to workout, then don't worry about the details. You want good form and basic exercises that don't push you outta your league.

If you've been working out and want to add a supplement like creatine or protein...the time is not as important as simply getting on the supplement. There are exceptions of course, but mostly it's just getting going on whatever it is.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach
I agree, going to the gym is 'unnatural', but we don't live caves and lug rocks around anymore, hence the reason the average person isn't chiseled like a Greek God.

but, I still think the hardgainer approach is best. I was much stronger when I worked out a lot, I never got 'big' and never will be, my body is unique and trying to get 'pumped' to look like other people isn't what it should be about.

Weightlifting should be about retaining your muscular system as you age and pushing muscles to breakdown and repair as they were designed. Not about artificially retaining water in them to 'look' bigger. A fit body isn't necessarily a strong, healthy body.
Yea, you've got some bad data there on creatine. If anything its one of the more natural supplements on the market. I'd almost be willing to make a stronger argument for creatine being more natural than something like ion exchange whey protein.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 03:02 PM
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I'm talking about the fact that your body already makes it own creatine, taking more (artifical) doses of the substance makes no sense to me. It's like buying multivitamins which just makes bright, expensive urine.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 03:32 PM
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The volumizing effect of creatine is so small and insignificant, all you guys are acting like it inflates your muscles to twice the size. At MOST you might get a 1/4 inch on each arm, not enough for anybody to even notice.
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 10:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach
I'm talking about the fact that your body already makes it own creatine, taking more (artifical) doses of the substance makes no sense to me. It's like buying multivitamins which just makes bright, expensive urine.
Bright, expensive urine...I see. Hey I mean I'm down with folks who don't care to take supplements because most can get by without them just fine. However before you go making statements like that, ya might wanna check the facts on it. Otherwise to some of the nutritional folks here a statement like that might simply seem silly.

As for creatine being produced, you are correct. You also get it from certain foods such as fish and meat. However there's a slight change when you're an athelete. The training that you go through (assuming there's any intensity to your workout at all) puts a high stress on the body. In turn this will give you an increased demand on nutrients. So the creatine your body produces will fall behind a bit. Not to mention, you produce only a gram or two. You'll also need more vitamins and minerals.

Hey man, if you wanna read the Total cereal box and tell yourself that you're getting good info there then by all means...but it's a bit misguided here. Tell me that taking Andro isn't worth it and I'll side with you. But for a supplement that at worst causes water retention it's a null argument and loses it's validity.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redduck21
recovery time is decreased, both day to day, and in between sets. a few seconds after finishing a strenuous set you'll feel ready to attack the next one.
I find this to be the greatest benefit for me.

Chris
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 10:42 AM
 
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Also shadrach...I'm assuming that you've never taken a medication nor ever would since that's natural. If you can't fight off an infection on your own then you shouldn't take any meds there either. Just go with the flow of life? No heart meds later in life, no tylenol for headaches, etc...?
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGGY
Also shadrach...I'm assuming that you've never taken a medication nor ever would since that's natural. If you can't fight off an infection on your own then you shouldn't take any meds there either. Just go with the flow of life? No heart meds later in life, no tylenol for headaches, etc...?

that's right, go all Brook Sheilds on his Tom Cruise ass!

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGGY
Also shadrach...I'm assuming that you've never taken a medication nor ever would since that's natural. If you can't fight off an infection on your own then you shouldn't take any meds there either. Just go with the flow of life? No heart meds later in life, no tylenol for headaches, etc...?
I do take medication as little as possible, but creatine isn't a medication, so your argument doesn't really apply.

I've taken medication after a suprise attack of gout in my foot, but since then I've made changes to my diet so that I don't have elevated levels of uric acid in my blood. So I could eat whatever I want and take the meds, or take care of my body and not need them. That's the difference between taking medication to treat something, or popping pills like many people do now, to dull the effects of a body that is not working properly.

And I've studied a lot about nutrion, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about since you lift weights and most know more than I. Many people take suppliments but get no other nutrients from their food because all they eat is the processed junk that American loves to serve and sell. You can't take a single Vitamin B pill in the morning that has 1000% of the USDA recommended levels and then think you are getting enough of that vitamin for a day. The human body will absorb only a very small amount of that huge does, and the rest will be passed out via urine. Now if you eat healthy, balanced meals throughout the day, then a multivitamin is a good source to give you that extra little bit, hence SUPPLEMENT. But many people treat supplements as REPLACEMENTS.

That's all I'm saying. And oh yeah, the USDA nutrional information is so far behind, even the 'new' pyramind is lacking. It's getting better, but you should have caught on that most things I eat don't even HAVE a box or label to read.

The whole point of my original argument is that instead of worrying about Creatine or spending money on it, people should spend those brains cycles on what to eat the rest of the day, how to get enough sleep (the SINGLE most important aspect of bodybuilding), or other more constructive things.

Jeff
NESBA #311
'02 GSXR600
'98
Smokin' Joe's F3

Last edited by shadrach; 11-22-2006 at 12:04 PM.
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 01:13 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Hey, I don't disagree there. But he asked a question. The answer is not "eat right" But it's in how and when to take creatine. Now if someone comes in and says "I'm 300lbs overweight, what running shoes are best for me?" That's the time to step in and say "Maybe you shouldn't be running." But if someone asks a very specific question, then they get a very specific answer. He's not asking "What do you think about creatine and should I take it?" He's asking when to take it.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 02:54 PM
BSB > WSBK > MotoGP
 
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Loop & Cary
Posts: 11,948
Location: South Loop & Cary
Sportbike: '02 GSXR 600 / '98 CBRF3
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True, point taken. I read the post as "I'm taking some stuff that I got on sale and might not really know a lot about what I'm injesting." So it's on him to do some research if he likes.

Jeff
NESBA #311
'02 GSXR600
'98
Smokin' Joe's F3
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