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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Thoughts spurred by rule change post

I haven't attended a NESBA day yet, but from what I hear there is/has been a number of illegal passes in B class, among other issues (blend-line violations)

Last summer I complained about people passing me inside corners, or late breaking me to get in front before a corner, and I was slightly berated by a few members for not understanding that track days are for 'fast riding' and not for the meek, and I should accept that more experienced B riders will want to get around my slow-ass. I took it as a lesson learned and kept my mouth shut.

But, I understood the rules before the event as NO passing in "B" Class ANYWHERE except on the straights, which really limited it to between 6&7, and 7&1. That was NOT the case as a few people spooked me in corners, and they were NOT control riders. I understood orange shirts to be allowed to pass when they felt it was safe.

Granted, this was during the CLSB and some Edge Racing days at Blackhawk, but from what I've heard and read about recent NESBA days, as the B classes have had the same issues.

I don't have a lap timer and don't really plan to get one. I couldn't say what I ran at BHF last year, but I can say I had a lot of fun, never crashed, learned a lot about the bike and improved as a rider, on and off the street. I like the track because I feel that it's a safer place than the street where I can trust a corner probably won't have gravel or oncoming traffic, but I'm still prepared for something to possibly be there. I want to make it home in one piece, me and the bike.

I feel that riding at or near 100% is not worth the potential risk to me and others out there. Sure I may be hampering my learning curve by riding below a certain level and taking baby steps, but I'm not Valentino Rossi and I'll never be a racer. I lack the natural skill, nor do I have the desire to push that hard at something as dangerous as this.

I'm not saying that accident's won't happen, but there seems to have been a lot of crashes lately. I also don't think know anything about Shannon's accident, so I'm not saying anything about that, I'm just talking about my own experiences and my lack of 'excitement' at attending NESBA days this season when I read some of the things I have seen here and on their forums.

To me it seems like B class should be people safely and curtiously trying to improve their riding, or just enjoy riding the track, and no ego's or people racing each other.

Am I naive, or is this what track days should be for? (sorry for rambling...)

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 12:06 PM
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I don't think that's naive, and I honesty wish it were a little safer than it was in NESBA b group than it is.

After looking back at my one and only track day in march, I am not rushing back to get hurt or worse. I don't see myself doing any days that aren't on 4 mile tracks with AMPLE room to pass.

From some of the ccs guys I know, they think Blackhawk is one of the less safe tracks in or immediate are anyway, and I'll make a point of not going there. I am officially scared of any track that has turns that go around a stand of trees.
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 12:53 PM

 
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Jeff, I share some of your concerns as my son and I have suffered through several crashes this year. I think the steps NESBA is implementing for the Midwest will get us back to where safety is paramount and fun is improved for all. Anyone who rides in the beginner group that rides at 10/10ths is only fooling themselves. The beginner group is the place to learn. Few people have the natural ability to learn at 10/10ths. IMHO, a beginner rider will benefit far more, riding with reserve and concentration on smoothness and lines. Speed comes from skill and practice, not the twist of the wrist.
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 12:57 PM
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There are a number of problems with this kind of riding. Let me just list out the problems that I see...

*Big differences in skill levels. Take a track like Blackhawk, there's pretty much a 50 second gap between the fast guys and the slowest guys. Three groups isn't enough to appropriately split the field, but you can't just add more groups.

*Track days are becoming more popular, and a lot of people who would be street squids who weave through traffic and go to jail are finding out about track days. How do you cool these guys down and force em to ride safe?

*By making tougher rules, because you can't trust these people to control themselves, especially in 'B' group when they are just starting off. But this leads to more problems because they will just get impatient. And when they are impatient, they will break the rules. And the guys getting passed won't be expecting it because it is against the rules.

*Also, on an unrelated note, I see a lot more shit at Blackhawk than any other track. I just don't get why. Maybe it's too narrow a track but they still fit people on there by the length.

Solutions? I hate to beat a dead horse because I've said this a lot in the past, but I think Sportbike Track Time has got it right with their Novice group.
'Beginner' groups need to be more tight, with smaller grids, and ASSIGNED instructors, and you stick with those instructors and do as they tell you or you get booted.
If you think you are fast enough, go to Intermediate... the intimidation factor is usually enough to put these wanna be guys who would otherwise be stuffing the slower guys in a more open track day like NESBA's in their rightful place and humbles them. Plus the rules are a little more lax on passing so these guys you ride with when you move up have a lot more experience with passing and being passed on the outside and inside.

Ideally, I think they should make 'B' group slightly more regulated. For example, the guys who want to ride slower and safer, group em with 2 instructors, one in front and one behind. The guys coming up on them need permission from the CR behind them to pass, and the 2 CR's coordinate passes like that. You pass without permission, you leave for the day. I don't know how this would work in practice but it sounds good to me.

Realistically, you can't force people to be safe if they don't want to be. The best the orgs can do is make safety rules and kick people out for breaking those rules, and that's what NESBA is trying to do.

Hopefully, the knuckleheads will all go away, and the safe guys that you know and love to ride with are left behind.

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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 01:10 PM
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Please allow me to add my $.02....

Blackhawk was my first track day, and I will fully admit to being slow. I wanted to work on my lines and sights before really getting into the speed. I only had three people pass me in a turn (Turn 1 at that), and one of which was a CR. It wasn't that bad for me, maybe I was just lucky.

I agree that the B class needs to be more regulated though, I know I'm not a pro, but there were some people going rather fast that had absolutely no lines at all, one guy in paticular was all over the place. I would think a CR would have seen that and helped him out.

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 03:53 PM
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I think Nesba's B groups are getting too large. There just seems to be a lot of people out there. Throw in the vast range of experience that B group holds and you have trouble.
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 04:17 PM
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!st. Your involved in a sport that is competitive...racing or track days it doesnt matter. Someone always wants to go faster then there buddy!

2nd. Once you get to Id say the top 10 fastest guys/gals in the B group it becomes far more frustrating for them then it is for the slower people. Because they get held up alot of the time. When they get held up it makes it very difficult to reach a point were they could get the bump to I .

If you want to participate in track days you have to accept that things are gonna happen out there, wether you like it or not. MAybe try to see it from there point of view instead of just your point of view as if someone is trying to take you out or spook you in a corner.

I think NESBA does the best to their ability to keep a risky sport as safe as they can.

On a side note. If you can feel someone hounding you on the track , have some consideration and make it easy for them to get by you.

Im not bashing your opinions, just showing you a different way of looking at it.

This is gonna hurt!
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 06:29 PM
 
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I wish they had that here. 1.2 mile track, approx. 35 people on it, and got passed on the inside quite a few times. The kicker? They were only passing me into turn one, right after a little straight, so the liter bikes were gaining ground on me there and getting aggresive.

Extremely unnerving to see a person brand spankin new to the track being so aggresive.
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
I agree that the B class needs to be more regulated though, I know I'm not a pro, but there were some people going rather fast that had absolutely no lines at all, one guy in paticular was all over the place. I would think a CR would have seen that and helped him out.
If you want a very regulated "B" group, try STT. Their novice group has 6 or so subgroups, all doing the same drills, just at different speeds. You can move up or down paces easily. Their drills work excellent at Gratten and would work good at Gingerman too. And, as a lady, you get dirt cheap track time ($75/day).

As for the rule changes, I think this is something coming around because people are just blatantly breaking the basic rules then pleading ignorance when caught. But several different track day orgs I have been to have had problems with riders at Blackhawk breaking the blend line rule at both pit out and pit in (LP and PTT have seen it too). And, at Blackhawk, a rider was killed years ago due to a blend line violation at pit in (just after T7). The track owners want the orgs to enforce the rules more closely.

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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganZX6
!st. Your involved in a sport that is competitive...racing or track days it doesnt matter. Someone always wants to go faster then there buddy!

2nd. Once you get to Id say the top 10 fastest guys/gals in the B group it becomes far more frustrating for them then it is for the slower people. Because they get held up alot of the time. When they get held up it makes it very difficult to reach a point were they could get the bump to I .

If you want to participate in track days you have to accept that things are gonna happen out there, wether you like it or not. MAybe try to see it from there point of view instead of just your point of view as if someone is trying to take you out or spook you in a corner.

I think NESBA does the best to their ability to keep a risky sport as safe as they can.

On a side note. If you can feel someone hounding you on the track , have some consideration and make it easy for them to get by you.

Im not bashing your opinions, just showing you a different way of looking at it.

I agree completely
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 12:46 PM
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Keep in mind though guys, everyone starts somewhere! I doubt any of us have answers that would make it completely better if we did, then we'd probably be running a track day org ourselves.

Outside of that I have to add +1 to STT for novice riders, it's structured differently.
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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 02:46 PM
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If a person is blatantly breaking the rules, they need to be removed from the track. It's up to the control riders/orgranization to enforce the rules. Not to do so is to jeapordize everyone's safety.
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:00 PM
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I always thought trackday were to become more skilled rider and enjoy riding on track. It sound more like training to be the next Rossi. I plan on doing track day some day need more gear. It just sound like lot of racer want be out there bending rules. Went that note that's why I plan on doing track days with Buell brag not with nesba. More of small group riders and more controled.

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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover
And, at Blackhawk, a rider was killed years ago due to a blend line violation at pit in (just after T7).
What exactly is a blend line violation?
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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
What exactly is a blend line violation?
In a nutshell, there's a portion of the track on the front straight that is split into 2 lanes. One lane is for guys already riding on the track at full throttle, and the slow lane is for people to come onto the track from the pits. A blend line violation is crossing this line.

The rationale for this, obviously, is to keep the guys coming on to the track at 50mph away from the guys that just came outta the last turn and are hitting 150.

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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Crossing over a solid line in the track that seperates the track and the hot-pit lanes. Upon entering the track at BHF you need to stay to the inside of the blend line all the way up and through turn 1, as bike are coming down the front stretch at well over 100mph and you're just coming on the track at a fraction of that speed.

Also, when coming off the track you supposed to take turn 7 slow and tight and immedately pull the right to enter the pit, NOT vear from the outside across the track to the inside.

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganZX6
!st. Your involved in a sport that is competitive...racing or track days it doesnt matter. Someone always wants to go faster then there buddy!

2nd. Once you get to Id say the top 10 fastest guys/gals in the B group it becomes far more frustrating for them then it is for the slower people. Because they get held up alot of the time. When they get held up it makes it very difficult to reach a point were they could get the bump to I .

If you want to participate in track days you have to accept that things are gonna happen out there, wether you like it or not. MAybe try to see it from there point of view instead of just your point of view as if someone is trying to take you out or spook you in a corner.

I think NESBA does the best to their ability to keep a risky sport as safe as they can.

On a side note. If you can feel someone hounding you on the track , have some consideration and make it easy for them to get by you.

Im not bashing your opinions, just showing you a different way of looking at it.
I agree with most of the stuff you said but no matter how frustrating it may be for the faster riders, you still need to follow the rules and show a bit of courtesy to your trackmates. The faster riders in the beginners group need to practice a bit of patience until they can move up to a group that is more appropriate for their skill level and if they can't wait, they need to move the hell on and go racing where there are no ontrack rules besides the obvious. This also happens in racing. I don't know how many times I've heard racers(including myself) complaining about how so and so is parking it in the corners and how so and so is early on the brakes. No matter how fast you think you are, there is always someone out there who thinks that YOU'RE parking it in the corners. It all comes down to showing some respect and courtesy for your trackmates. If you can't do that, then you need to go fuck off and die.
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Rice
I agree with most of the stuff you said but no matter how frustrating it may be for the faster riders, you still need to follow the rules and show a bit of courtesy to your trackmates. The faster riders in the beginners group need to practice a bit of patience until they can move up to a group that is more appropriate for their skill level and if they can't wait, they need to move the hell on and go racing where there are no ontrack rules besides the obvious. This also happens in racing. I don't know how many times I've heard racers(including myself) complaining about how so and so is parking it in the corners and how so and so is early on the brakes. No matter how fast you think you are, there is always someone out there who thinks that YOU'RE parking it in the corners. It all comes down to showing some respect and courtesy for your trackmates. If you can't do that, then you need to go fuck off and die.

QFE. Good post. Positive rep points (or whatever) added!

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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 09:27 PM

 
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What the heck happened to pitting out and re-entry?
Too impatient to have courtesy to your fellow riders?

The more I think about it the more pissed I get.

Last edited by butchf; 08-09-2005 at 09:29 PM.
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butchf
What the heck happened to pitting out and re-entry?
Too impatient to have courtesy to your fellow riders?

The more I think about it the more pissed I get.
That doesn't work when there are 40+ bikes on the track at the same time.

Honestly, the best way to get clear track time at Blackhawk is to attend a non-weekend event. Weekend events get packed regardless of who runs them. LP offers track days on the Mondays following races(cheap,especially with a race license), and PTT offers them generally on Wednesdays ($150, but they take a 10 minute lunch break). Leon also occationally offers weekend ones. He breaks groups up at around 25 riders, using 4 groups instead of 3. Neither will give you the guidance of the NESBA CR crew though.

Another option is to hit another track. Putnam, Autobahn, Gingerman are all quite wide tracks. Nesba runs at Putnam and Autobahn.

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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 09:48 PM

 
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after reading this post

Let me offer this perspective. "I'll put my race rider on the track and run you off every chance he gets."
This is some of what I saw people write. If this is what you want stay the 'f 'away from me, you'll get hurt. Not by me, you'll have a monopoly on that.

I joined Nesba as a member in order to be part of the rules for which we ride.
If the organization decides to change the rules for my safety, great.
I got a broken hand, a son with injuries, friends down, and my best friend passed. Go find another org is BS. Nesba is member driven we don't need to find a new bed just evolve.
Probably offended some, but I have my opinions. As an American I'm allowed to voice them.
This whole thread has got me pissed.
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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 09:53 PM
 
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Well, I have attended 2 PTT track days at Blackhawk. I found that the Novice or Beginner group to be true beginners, and that the Intermediate group was in fact intermediate.

I do not do a lot of track days, so I typically run in B group. I am not the slowest, but I am usually not the fastest with Nesba. In PTT I ran B group, and I lapped most riders at least twice per session.

Also, I try to be the last guy out there. Depending on the track, if I take the first lap easy, I may not see another rider all session. I like an open track, because I go out there to work on my riding, not how I ride with others.

Others have talked up STT, maybe you should look to another organization for a structure that better suits your needs.
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 10:02 PM

 
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I will not ride with another org. I don't have the time to learn the new rules I'm friggin old. Change comes hard. That's OK though
I won't ride at all but will spend my time giving back. Corner work, crash truck, registration or what ever. Then when all the dust settles and I can trust the track participants I'll ride.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 10:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butchf
I will not ride with another org. I don't have the time to learn the new rules I'm friggin old. Change comes hard. That's OK though
I won't ride at all but will spend my time giving back. Corner work, crash truck, registration or what ever. Then when all the dust settles and I can trust the track participants I'll ride.

I was not referring to you, my post was directed at Shadrash
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 10:13 PM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
I was not referring to you, my post was directed at Shadrash
That's all good Brian. I guess where I come from, in the Nesba forum, I would rather spend my time working on improvement.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 10:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butchf
That's all good Brian. I guess where I come from, in the Nesba forum, I would rather spend my time working on improvement.
I hear ya, like I said, I have a great time being the last one out, and plenty of track all to myself. This coming Monday @ autobahn when they are running the full course, if you cannot find an empty section in 3+ miles, you are doing something wrong
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 10:22 PM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
I hear ya, like I said, I have a great time being the last one out, and plenty of track all to myself. This coming Monday @ autobahn when they are running the full course, if you cannot find an empty section in 3+ miles, you are doing something wrong
Stay safe my friend. I'll be there.
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Rice
It all comes down to showing some respect and courtesy for your trackmates. If you can't do that, then you need to go fuck off and die.
Wow I hope that wasnt direct towards me....

This is gonna hurt!
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganZX6
Wow I hope that wasnt direct towards me....
Definately wasn't toward you. What's up bro. We met at the CLSB trackday right?
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 11:40 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Aurora IL
Posts: 1,980
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Sportbike: 05 SV1000S, Wide Glide, DR350
Years Riding: 1/2 hour then it rained
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Rice
Definately wasn't toward you. What's up bro. We met at the CLSB trackday right?

Yep we did!

This is gonna hurt!
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