Suspension Seminar? - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-25-2006, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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Suspension Seminar?

How about a winter Chicago Area Suspension Setup Seminar? I know Four and Six did one last year. It was will attended.

Would there be enough interest to get Jim to do another one, or maybe a NESBA Seminar with Garth, MD and Wink?
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post #2 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-25-2006, 05:05 PM
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I would definitely be interested in something like this.

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post #3 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-25-2006, 10:53 PM
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You guys are funny!

First off, I know NOTHING of suspension. I heard that 4&6 did a great job last year. In the Chicagoland area of Nesbians who have a good grasp on suspension, Marshall and Grouch have a good working knowledge. Theory and fluid dynamics, Todd Murray knows his stuff VERY well.

It all depends on what level you are looking for. Street level, I would suggest perhaps one of CLSB sponsor dealers... perhaps BBK.

For my money, Suspension for Mortals is about the best you can find.

http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail...oduct_id=SUS4V



That would be about the best $50 you could spend. I have the DVDs. Perhaps we could have folks over to my place over the winter, watch the DVD and have some of the experts lead the discussion. (not me!)

I too would like to learn more about suspension.

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post #4 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 07:45 AM
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I would like to see those DVD's Wink. I have been studying all the info I can find on the subject, those look very interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
You guys are funny!

First off, I know NOTHING of suspension. I heard that 4&6 did a great job last year. In the Chicagoland area of Nesbians who have a good grasp on suspension, Marshall and Grouch have a good working knowledge. Theory and fluid dynamics, Todd Murray knows his stuff VERY well.

It all depends on what level you are looking for. Street level, I would suggest perhaps one of CLSB sponsor dealers... perhaps BBK.

For my money, Suspension for Mortals is about the best you can find.

http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail...oduct_id=SUS4V



That would be about the best $50 you could spend. I have the DVDs. Perhaps we could have folks over to my place over the winter, watch the DVD and have some of the experts lead the discussion. (not me!)

I too would like to learn more about suspension.



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post #5 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:20 AM
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I attended the 4 & 6 suspension seminar last year and did a write up on it in a post here on CLSB (sorry, can't find the post now).

I have also watched the Suspension for Mortals DVD a few times and have the notes with me at the track.

I have the basic theory down now, but what I need is someone to help me actually APPLY what I know in theory.

At a couple track days this past year, I just started twisting the knobs one at a time like gangbusters just to see what "more rebound" or "less sag" felt like in the real world. This is a SLOW way to learn...through trial and error.

I would be very interested in some TRACKSIDE setup and training. Someone who has some real world experience with a 2005 GSXR 1000 and can help me "sort" the bike so that all the suspension components work together as one.

Wink has (2) 05 GSXR 1000 and I have (1) 05 GSXR 1000. One of Wink's bikes is Lee Acree's AMA Superstock bike from '05. This bike is "SORTED". The difference in that bike's handling and our other two defies description...IT JUST WORKS PERFECTLY EVERYWHERE!

I want someone trackside to teach me how to SORT a bike like that. For this I would pay good money.

Sorry for the long post, this is something I'm mildly passionate about.

Maybe this group out of Milwaukee could do it?
http://www.tracksideengineering.com/...products_id/10

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Last edited by ronhix; 11-26-2006 at 08:26 AM.
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post #6 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:30 AM
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That's where Todd used to work

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post #7 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:39 AM
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A great number of folks don't know the basics and have no idea how to set sag and determine if they are on the right springs or not. Setting damping seems to follow some basics too, but somewhere it veers off into intangibles of the tuners theories and the riders personal preferences.
If you want to get deep into it try this http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=45537
Lot's of nerd stuff on port dia and shim stack combinations.
That said
I'd love to have Max tweak things in for me track side.

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post #8 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
In the Chicagoland area of Nesbians who have a good grasp on suspension, Marshall and Grouch have a good working knowledge.
Barry and I helped a bunch of folks set their sag last year. Beyond that I'm mostly useless.

Chris
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post #9 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 09:21 AM
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Bill at Performance Motorcycle in Madison Wisconsin does clinics all winter long. Check out the website. He is Ed Keys mechanic.

http://www.motorcycleperf.com/

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post #10 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 09:50 AM
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Put of working with suspension is knowing what it is not doing for you or what it could be better.

Example, is the bike not finishing the corner / running wide. A couple things can lead to that. One the rider stopped adding input. With that ruled out, you move to damping, rear ride height and other options as well.

I had a problem a few years ago that my 750 was not finishing a few corners at RA. Added a few mm to the rear ride height and problem went away.

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post #11 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 01:43 PM
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Hey guys.

Thanks for the props Wink.

I did work for Ed at Trackside Engineering for about a half year (as a second job), until the workload got too much. In the time I worked there, I picked up a lot of information about establishing baseline setups, either in a garage or trackside enviornment.

I also work professionally in hydraulic controls, and suspension is basically very simple hydraulic control devices.

I have my own opinions about 4&6 and Max. I've never viewed the Suspension for Mortals video, but I've heard that it's quite good. Danch said that Max and I (Ed) see eye-to-eye onmost things, with some differing technical details.

I'd be glad to give a lecture. I've thought about this in the past, and could probabl condense things into about an hour... speaking and drawing pictures and such. Or, we could watch the DVD. Either way, to do both might be repetative.

Anyway, we could then have a "Lab" session as well. People could bring over thier bikes, and we could break up into pairs (or threes). Set sags, damping, and ride heights. I could supervise and check the final work.

How would that work for a fun and useful afternoon??

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post #12 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 01:46 PM
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Sounds ideal to me.

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post #13 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix
I attended the 4 & 6 suspension seminar last year and did a write up on it in a post here on CLSB (sorry, can't find the post now).

I have also watched the Suspension for Mortals DVD a few times and have the notes with me at the track.

I have the basic theory down now, but what I need is someone to help me actually APPLY what I know in theory.

At a couple track days this past year, I just started twisting the knobs one at a time like gangbusters just to see what "more rebound" or "less sag" felt like in the real world. This is a SLOW way to learn...through trial and error.

I would be very interested in some TRACKSIDE setup and training. Someone who has some real world experience with a 2005 GSXR 1000 and can help me "sort" the bike so that all the suspension components work together as one.

Wink has (2) 05 GSXR 1000 and I have (1) 05 GSXR 1000. One of Wink's bikes is Lee Acree's AMA Superstock bike from '05. This bike is "SORTED". The difference in that bike's handling and our other two defies description...IT JUST WORKS PERFECTLY EVERYWHERE!

I want someone trackside to teach me how to SORT a bike like that. For this I would pay good money.

Sorry for the long post, this is something I'm mildly passionate about.

Maybe this group out of Milwaukee could do it?
http://www.tracksideengineering.com/...products_id/10
I thought we had it for you Ron at Topeka it cleaned up your tire didn't it .The biggest thing is spring rates for yor wieght if thats correct there isn't but a couple clicks either way with comp or rebound after that along with tire pressures for that brand. Then after that it's my wing it and shoot from the hip riding style.

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post #14 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 03:59 PM
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Heath, have Ryan replace your avatar with this if you want. A little closer shot to show off that Loco form!

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post #15 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 04:49 PM
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Awesome thanks man!

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post #16 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 05:08 PM
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Suspension setup

I'd definately be up for this again. I would like to go through the motions for a baseline suspension setup on a bike. I know once I'm actually setting the sag/etc and take some notes, I'll better understand what a good suspension is supposed to feel like. I still have questions about what I'm supposed-to be feeling (sus reactions)?
Any weekend would be fine!

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post #17 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
I thought we had it for you Ron at Topeka it cleaned up your tire didn't it .The biggest thing is spring rates for yor wieght if thats correct there isn't but a couple clicks either way with comp or rebound after that along with tire pressures for that brand. Then after that it's my wing it and shoot from the hip riding style.
Yes sir, we definitely tooka step in the right direction to keep me from eating tires so bad...THANK YOU!

Maybe Wink will just sell me the KWS bike. Hey Wink, $100 a month for the rest of my life sound about right?

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post #18 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:17 PM
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Even swap for the 88 bike?

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post #19 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 08:51 PM
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I'd like to see a USD fork refresh. One thing that Max points out in his vid is that frequent track day riders put lots of hours on their suspensions and should change the fork oil, perhaps several times per season. I have never had a USD apart, yet. I guess it can't be too difficult to service?

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post #20 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 10:12 PM
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Pro teams change the fork oil out every two race weekends. At least that is what Mike Fitzgerald has told me in the past. He recommended for me that I change the fork oil twice a season. FWIW.

I do not have the tools to do it, but I know that CTR was charging $125 for it at Barber. They attend many SE NESBA events.

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post #21 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 10:29 PM
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I'd like to think I could handle the mechanical side of it. At $125 per, this tool kit from Traxxion would pay for itself quickly over a season. http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail...roduct_id=CFTK
A little knowlege can launch sprung parts very far.
It would be nice to see it correctly done at least 1X.

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post #22 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 10:34 PM
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I suppose I could look into getting the right tools...

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post #23 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
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Even swap for the 88 bike?
Sorry, no deal.

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post #24 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 11:16 PM
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Interesting story regaurding required susension maintnance...

One day Ed Key came to Ed Kwaterski (of Trackside Engineering) and asked Ed to rebuild his Penske shock, including seals. Key was complaining of traction problems costing him some 1/4 second per lap. Kwaterski did this, but noted that the oil still looked brand new, seals in good condition. Upon fitment of the rebuilt shock, the traction returned. Key thanked Kwaterski claiming the problem was solved.

Key usually rebuilds his suspension every race weekend.

Food for thought.

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post #25 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 05:57 AM
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My first venture into suspension work involved me completely disassembling my new GSXR forks to install Traxxion AK-20s. This took me about 8 hours the first time.

Back in August I thought I had a leak in one of the forks, so I completely disassembled and reassebled them, along with new oil. This time it was about 4 hours.

These times include removal of bodywork, pulling the forks, performing the maintenance, and reassembling everything. I found it to be very enjoyable work.

The Traxxion tool kit and a few wrenches are all you need.

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post #26 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 06:30 AM
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It would be interesting t learn, But I think I may still drop my forks off at a shop




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post #27 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 07:46 AM
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Replacing Fork oil is very easy. I have done it twice so far on my current track bike.
The problem with doing other bikes is knowing the oil level as each bike is different.

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post #28 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 07:48 AM
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Ed Kwaterski has built/rebuilt half a dozen front ends and a couple of rear shocks for me - I'd definitely vouch for his abilities. An added plus, he's easy to find at the track if you need something tweeked during the weekend (well, at CCS events, anyway). Hell of a nice family, too!

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post #29 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 09:14 AM
 
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hmm... suspension talks and Murf's name gets brought up? Who would have a thought! I can personally attest to the fact that Todd knows his stuff- we set my suspension up at Putnam and it made a world of difference.
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post #30 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 11:18 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Pro teams change the fork oil out every two race weekends.
I've heard similar info from AMA riders.

I would be willing to donate my forks for a rebuild at a seminar. I think I need new springs anyway. I could also bring my RR to the seminar location since it's suspension design is a bit different in the rear. I could bring the Monster as well since you can see all of it's parts easily.

I'd be really interested in this. I have a bent Ducati fork that we could disassemble and use as a visual aid. I've watched the suspension for mortals and the onthethrottle.tv videos. They're both good watching. I learn better hands on though.

On the note of what Heath stated, we've seen similar information. AMA teams will change springs last minute before a race. They swap them like we change our socks. It seems for the most part, you get things in the ball park with the springs. Then then set the rebound so it rebounds quickly without bouncing. Then you tune the compression for feel and road conditions.

I get the impression that a pro tuner could talk with you, get you the right springs, watch you ride and set compression and rebound and end up within a click or two of perfect.

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