Selecting Gearing for Specific tracks - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 06:44 PM Thread Starter

 
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Selecting Gearing for Specific tracks

Please, I want everyone to flaunt their opinion on this topic. If you don't agree with someone, be sure you point it out and lets get all the different options available to us here.



Garth touched on this in another thread and I've been thinking about it a bunch for some strange reason.

At tracks like BHF, I've heard you don't even use 6th gear. Would you want to change sprockets to make use of 6th?

I've heard that you want to achieve a specific ratio at times. Why, what, huh.

Some people use will use a tooth bigger on the front at tracks like Road America instead of using a smaller rear sprocket. Why would you make that change?

Does the choice in sprocket sizes have anything to do with keeping or adjusting your anti squat properties?

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post #2 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 06:55 PM
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Gearing ahh yes 15 /44 or45 blackhawk,autobahn's,putnam,and probably topeka.Road America 16/43 it's all about the drive maximizing all the way to your brake marker without bouncing off redline.

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post #3 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 07:12 PM
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You also use gearing to adjust the corning RPM as if the bike was inbetween two gears for say.

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post #4 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 08:03 PM
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Thought you all might find this useful, so I just put it together.



Or if you would rather have the PDF version, click HERE

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post #5 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 08:46 PM Thread Starter

 
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Thanks for the handy reference Wink.

So what makes the 3.00 Garth mentioned optimal for BHF?

Ahhhh so having an inventory of sprockets front and rear allows you to tune.

So change sprockets for optimal gearing for corner exit and top speed and minimizing shifts.
Having different sizes allows you achieve the desired ratio's without having to hopefully change your chain, or to change your wheelbase.

Anyone have any insight on the anti squat or swing arm angle changes that occur with sprocket changes?

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post #6 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 08:53 PM
 
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15/51, stunna sprocket that'll make you wheelie in 1, 2 and maybe 3, but it sure is fun to race with. For usable power, I'm switching to 15/49 next year.

Last edited by Superspud needs his med's; 11-30-2006 at 08:56 PM.
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post #7 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Thanks for the handy reference Wink.

So what makes the 3.00 Garth mentioned optimal for BHF?

Ahhhh so having an inventory of sprockets front and rear allows you to tune.

So change sprockets for optimal gearing for corner exit and top speed and minimizing shifts.
Having different sizes allows you achieve the desired ratio's without having to hopefully change your chain, or to change your wheelbase.

Anyone have any insight on the anti squat or swing arm angle changes that occur with sprocket changes?
Greg, I have no info other than with the Suzukis. A 3.00 ratio for your Honda may not be the way to go. One thing about the 97-2000 GSXR's and the 2001-2003's is that they liked to be jacked up in the rear and have the axle slammed all the way back. While the 1000's of the same year liked a little more of a flat set up with the axle midway back. I only know about GSXR's Which makes sense as I have had several of them. I have a crap load of set up info etc.

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post #8 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Thanks for the handy reference Wink.

Ahhhh so having an inventory of sprockets front and rear allows you to tune.
No problem Greg. Actually, I give credit to Garth as he explained sprocket ratios to me at the first NESBA event this year, Grattan.

I created this chart just to help clarify the ratios for ya. As SuperSpud kinda mentioned above, no need for all the gears that I have shown, unless you wanna be a stunna.

For example, for the front, I have 16 and 17. For the rear on my thousand, I have 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45. Needless to say, that is a wide range. Probably too wide.

I use a 41 or 42 at Road America on the rear. I use a 45 at all the short tracks. The 45 is TOO strong, so I will be moving to a 44 in the future.

Again, this is on my 05 GSXR. The best way to figure out what works for you is to get a few sprockets and try them out. An extra cush drive is ideal so that you can have two sprockets mounted before you get to the track.

As far as swing arm angle, Heath is very good at that.

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post #9 of 88 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 11:13 PM
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An excellent way to calculate your gearing:
http://www.members.aol.com/rotaxjohn/websprocket.html

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post #10 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 01:04 AM
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Hey Wink I remember giving you some static about it. Pretty funny. I can't believe the season is already done. The good news is that I am now fully recovered from the Sat night and resultin Sunday. LOL

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post #11 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 02:43 AM
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And for those few who take it to the next level there is internal gearing to dial in. RSW250 yummie bits.

A stack of sprockets F&R and a few chains are more in my budget and my riding talent/skill level.
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post #12 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 07:57 AM
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Greg, the only track that I changed gearing for was RA. All the rest I ran a 15/49 on my R6. When I bought my bike the guy bought it off gave me a 15, 47,48,49, and 50 tooth rear. I asked him how I knew which one was the right to run and he said "Unless your racing and need ever split second I wouldnt worry about it because it will only matter by a second or so each lap (using BHF as a reference). Get 1 good setup and when you cant seem to get much faster than worry about gearing".

It made sense to me. Its no big deal for me not to get into 6th gear (ACC North when I was there). Could I have changed my gearing...yep, but that would have jacked up my setup even worse than what it was.


FWIW, I think somewhere like Miller or RA that has huge straights and fast sweepers wrong gearing may become a bigger factor. At the tracks we mostly run I dont think it matters all that much. Especially at my skill level.
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post #13 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:26 AM
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Greg (and all),

Here is an excellent discussion of gearing and ratio selection from cbr600rr.com

http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index....c,12762.0.html

...and look at the wise and attractive gentleman that started the thread!!

Anyway, this is obviously 600RR specific (good for Greg) but touches on the topic of ratio selection as a function of corner speed instead of straight speed. I've taken Jeff's (site admin is Jeff Kuflak, CCS MW expert and 600RR guru) advice and have been quite pleased. I just touch 5th on the straight with a 2.812 final drive ratio.

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post #14 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:39 AM
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Maybe we should talk about some common issues that would make you want
to change your gearing in the first place.......

Having to shift up one more gear for the last 50ft of a straight.

Running into the rev-limiter for "a while" to avoid shifting to that next gear.

Finding that 2nd is too low and third is too high for the perfect drive onto the longest straight.

Finding you have to use 1st gear for the bus-stop ( not uncommon for 1000's anyway )


To detect issues the things I look for are along the above problems....
Can I get a good drive onto any fast sections.
Do I have to grab a shift anywhere akward ?
Will changing gearing help there without hurting elsewhere ?
Am I hitting the limiter anywhere ?
Will a gearing change help that without hurting anything else.


Right gear all the time baby !


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post #15 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:46 AM
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Great points Tom, thanks for adding.

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post #16 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5AXIS View Post
And for those few who take it to the next level there is internal gearing to dial in. RSW250 yummie bits.

A stack of sprockets F&R and a few chains are more in my budget and my riding talent/skill level.

Dude, those are internal transmission gears in the picture you posted. You mite have to do your homework and get pretty deep into mechanical engineering to understand what happens when you start changing those.

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post #17 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:51 AM
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Hey Wink I remember giving you some static about it. Pretty funny. I can't believe the season is already done. The good news is that I am now fully recovered from the Sat night and resultin Sunday. LOL
Grattan Bar baby!!!

The track was cold, but that bar was hot! That bar was definitely a detriment to the lap times on Sunday for quite a few people. You just gotta love it when we tried to leave and most of the girls in the bar followed us out into the parking lot beggin us to stay... Hmmm, maybe we should left earlier

I got some pictures for private consumption. Suffice it to say, we did some serious damage to the bar inventory that night.

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post #18 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:53 AM
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I switched to 15/44 with a 520 conversion from stock 16/42 midway through the season and really like it at Blackhawk and Autobahn North. I just picked up a rear 42 to try at Autobahn South and Putnam.

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post #19 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:55 AM Thread Starter

 
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Thanks for all the good information. I ponder these things because I'm considering racing. Though it wouldn't make that much of a difference for me, I have to much free time and want to know more about the benefits of each.

The swing arm angle and anti squat setup is something that I'd like to learn more about.

I also wonder about where to set the rear axle of my bike. I've read that the center of mass for your bike should be at the center of your wheelbase for best balance of turn in and stability.

On that thought, when you go and get your bike "setup" on a computrack or something like that, what are they looking to achieve? What can they look for and identify?

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post #20 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 09:58 AM
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Start a Geometry thread Greg.

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post #21 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks for all the good information. I ponder these things because I'm considering racing. Though it wouldn't make that much of a difference for me, I have to much free time and want to know more about the benefits of each.

The swing arm angle and anti squat setup is something that I'd like to learn more about.

I also wonder about where to set the rear axle of my bike. I've read that the center of mass for your bike should be at the center of your wheelbase for best balance of turn in and stability.

On that thought, when you go and get your bike "setup" on a computrack or something like that, what are they looking to achieve? What can they look for and identify?
Make no mistake. Your 600RR is pretty damn close to being set up just fine. Try not to tweak things unless they really need it. Ride Ride Ride Ride Ride, get on the brakes later and on the gas sooner. The bike can go fast, can you? Don't look immediately at the setup of your bike for you to go faster, the little Japanese engineer spent more time than you know designing that 600RR. That 600RR is set up better than the machines guys were racing proffesionally in the early to mid 90s.

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post #22 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:01 AM
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I would also add......


If you are buying a range of sprockets for the rear, 2 tooth increments is
probably as small a change as you really need to make.


I have run my last two GSXR's -1 in front and +0 - +4 in the rear.


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post #23 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Make no mistake. Your 600RR is pretty damn close to being set up just fine. Try not to tweak things unless they really need it. Ride Ride Ride Ride Ride, get on the brakes later and on the gas sooner. The bike can go fast, can you? Don't look immediately at the setup of your bike for you to go faster, the little Japanese engineer spent more time than you know designing that 600RR. That 600RR is set up better than the machines guys were racing proffesionally in the early to mid 90s.




Rare that I disagree with the Grasshopper...... but here......

The designers have all kinds of non-optimal considerations like noise
emissions and public safety ( anti-wheelie ). Gearing is one of the
tools they use to meet these goals.

Bikes that have to be raced in basiclly stock form ( like the 600RR )
are closer to "right" than others.....but there are still compromises
made.


Before altering internal ratio's I agree that you really need to know
exactly what it is that you are doing.......


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post #24 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:15 AM
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Rare that I disagree with the Grasshopper...... but here......

The designers have all kinds of non-optimal considerations like noise
emissions and public safety ( anti-wheelie ). Gearing is one of the
tools they use to meet these goals.

Bikes that have to be raced in basiclly stock form ( like the 600RR )
are closer to "right" than others.....but there are still compromises
made.


Before altering internal ratio's I agree that you really need to know
exactly what it is that you are doing.......


Tom
Anti wheelie gearing? Thats hilarious. That 600RR will wheelie all day long in 2nd gear with stock gearing.

All I was saying is that these newer bikes are set up good. For a person to take a brand new bike and start messing with geometry and gearing as just a track day goer is cool to play with yea, because its fun its a hobby, but you mite just end up chasing your tail making the changes and find out later that the stock set up was ideal for you (that persons) use for the bike... IE track days.

Correct me if I'm wrong NESBA AMA guys. If you alter an internal transmission gear and/or dog, is the bike still legal for Supersport competition?

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post #25 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Anti wheelie gearing? Thats hilarious. That 600RR will wheelie all day long in 2nd gear with stock gearing.

I know a 600RR can wheelie on stock gearing, I only meant that they select
gearing to make the bike less wheelie-prone. The stock gearing on an RC-51
is a reasonable example of this.


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post #26 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLARNEY View Post
I know a 600RR can wheelie on stock gearing, I only meant that they select
gearing to make the bike less wheelie-prone. The stock gearing on an RC-51
is a reasonable example of this.


Tom
I think the stock gearing is selected for the machine to run at a certain RPM in in a given gear, for gas mileage, and to keep the government happy.

That RC51, can wheelie in 3rd I'll bet with a bap of the clutch with stock gearing. BLAP BLAP!!! I love that big V-twin.

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post #27 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:39 AM
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The noise emission standard has a lot to do with things.......


The noise test requires a microphone at a set distance and angle from the
road and a drive by at a specific speed. The Honda VTR1000 Superhawk
had a HUGE ratio drop between first and second to drop the rpm's into
the gutter to pass this test.

Remeber that the test includes not only exhaust but all the mechanical
noises as well.........


The choices they make are pretty odd........

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post #28 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:49 AM
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During some Enduro competitions they do a similar sound test.

Why is this thread in the NESBA forum? Isn't this a performance and tech subject?

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post #29 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:56 AM
Please pass the trackpipe
 
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 1,061
Location: Joliet, IL
Sportbike: That one^^
Years Riding: ..
How you found us: ?
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Grattan Bar baby!!!

The track was cold, but that bar was hot! That bar was definitely a detriment to the lap times on Sunday for quite a few people. You just gotta love it when we tried to leave and most of the girls in the bar followed us out into the parking lot beggin us to stay... Hmmm, maybe we should left earlier

I got some pictures for private consumption. Suffice it to say, we did some serious damage to the bar inventory that night.
Eh yo...you at least need to send me the pics I took with your camera. Hint...beer can pyramid. Ya never know when I'll need to blackmail someone.

Chris
NESBA CR #51
'06 GSXR 600 / '05 CRF250X / '04 CRF 230 / '05 CRF 88
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post #30 of 88 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 11:23 AM
Slow Old Guy.
 
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SS Barrington
Posts: 17,258
Location: SS Barrington
Sportbike: Inline Two Wheeled
Years Riding: Since the beginning of time
How you found us: Dan Ortega sent me
           
I'll track it down for ya, Grouch. Good shots by the way.

===========
Great Quote - One would think that the Secret Service was smart enough to get serviced secretly.

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