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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Pushing past my comfort level

Sitting here trying to formulate a gameplan for my two hours of track time at BHF this Sunday, and how I can maximize it without pushing too far, too fast.

I know the things I need to work on (form, weighting inside peg, etc), but I still scrub off too much speed coming into turns, primarily my lefts. I find that when a CR is towing me around or I'm trying to catch someone running only a click faster, I push myself out of my comfort zone a little. But when the track is open or I'm left to run my own pace, I find myself over-braking for turns.

So what's everyone's best advice for getting myself to push faster, but not past the point of ignoring the 'little voice in my head' that is trying to save my body a trip to the asphalt?

(I saw an excellent post from Blarney somewhere that I will remember while riding this weekend; basically the correct way to go faster into a turn isn't to brake later, but keep the same initial braking point , yet don't scrub off quite as much speed as the last time around.)

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 03:47 PM
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Just move your speed up a mile or two per hour at a time until you feel comfortable at the new pace. Then rinse and repeat. Look at the speedo EXITING the turn... not entering or in the turn. Too much going on at that point.

See ya this weekend.

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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 03:57 PM
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REFERANCE points for breaking and turn in. increase your limits till your happy. get TOTALLY comfortable feeling what the bike is doing, and how you are MANAGING it. if you and the bike feels good. push harder, and repeat.

once you get to the point of wallowing the rear end around and then flicking it in and learning how much traction you can loose YET regain it with differant inputs is when your speed will really increase.

i find way to many people always need to feel STUCK to the ground at all times and when they break traction "to the point if you slowly worked you way up, no biggy cause you know how to feel and react and body input and steering input to control a slide or wallowing the rear end in, or the front starting to push out"

but instead they try to stay stuck and then when they do loose grip BAM there on there ass.

work your way up slowly and push with referance points.

gear your in, in low or high range for that corner, breaking at the same spot and turn in at the same spot. all will be well. increase your speed, youll be breaking harder, and sometimes youll need to move back your breaking marker, and change your entry point a touch.



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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
REFERANCE points for breaking and turn in. increase your limits till your happy. get TOTALLY comfortable feeling what the bike is doing, and how you are MANAGING it. if you and the bike feels good. push harder, and repeat.

once you get to the point of wallowing the rear end around and then flicking it in and learning how much traction you can loose YET regain it with differant inputs is when your speed will really increase.

i find way to many people always need to feel STUCK to the ground at all times and when they break traction "to the point if you slowly worked you way up, no biggy cause you know how to feel and react and body input and steering input to control a slide or wallowing the rear end in, or the front starting to push out"

but instead they try to stay stuck and then when they do loose grip BAM there on there ass.

work your way up slowly and push with referance points.

gear your in, in low or high range for that corner, breaking at the same spot and turn in at the same spot. all will be well. increase your speed, youll be breaking harder, and sometimes youll need to move back your breaking marker, and change your entry point a touch.
I so need to get into your next class.

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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Garth sold me a P.O.S. Bike without a working speedometer Maybe I'll take a look at Saturday and see if I can reconnect it or if I need parts.

Another thing I remembered was there were a handful of times when I went into 4 or 8 way too slow and wanted to get back on the throttle mid-turn. Is this a bad idea? I know not to just go WOT with the bike in any sort of lean, but if that happens do I just stay in maintenance throttle and then enter faster next time around? Or easy on the gas to pick up speed?

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting, I was prepared to get an answer like this:





Thanks....I'll keep that stuff in mind this weekend.

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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
I so need to get into your next class.
i dont teach stuff like this for the streets. but i do talk about it, and i do try to tell people where to try stuff like this, which of course is the track



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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by shadrach View Post
Garth sold me a P.O.S. Bike without a working speedometer Maybe I'll take a look at Saturday and see if I can reconnect it or if I need parts.

Another thing I remembered was there were a handful of times when I went into 4 or 8 way too slow and wanted to get back on the throttle mid-turn. Is this a bad idea? I know not to just go WOT with the bike in any sort of lean, but if that happens do I just stay in maintenance throttle and then enter faster next time around? Or easy on the gas to pick up speed?
dude i went 3 years with out my gauges.

all feel and listening.

maybe thats why i am sharing what helped me personally. plus even if you can gauges, you shouldnt be looking at them.

its pretty simple to know and feel what rpm range you are in, and how much speed you are carrying into a corner. if you feel your over your head going into or breaking, THEN YOU ARE IN OVER your head.

take your time and push baby steps. its the best and safest way.

there is only 2 limiting factors on a bike.

your mind and traction.

learn to master traction "or lack there of" and your mind can handle it and skills to deal with it?, then you will be in ZEN with the bike.

its all takes time, experience of doing it over and over, and it takes the willingness to endure a little pain when you do mess up. if you mess up? who cares as long as your ok, JUST LEARN from your mistakes and or what went wrong and work on it



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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
i dont teach stuff like this for the streets. but i do talk about it, and i do try to tell people where to try stuff like this, which of course is the track

I figured...but you clearly have teaching skills, and I want to nip bad habbits and promote good habbits NOW...not later after some bad riding.

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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:36 PM
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ill put a class on soon, but all my weekends and the 1st one in august is booked.



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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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Screw pushing anything. Work on being smooth, and make your lines flawless. With time, comes speed. Start with a solid foundation, and grow from there ...anyone that can twist the throttle can go fast.
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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:52 PM
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Screw pushing anything. Work on being smooth, and make your lines flawless. With time, comes speed. Start with a solid foundation, and grow from there ...anyone that can twist the throttle can go fast.
true on that, but anyone wanting to push harder should have at least brians common sense, 1st get smooth! but time doesn't make you faster if you don't push more.



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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:56 PM
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ever try the "3rd gear, no brakes" drill?
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 04:57 PM
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I don't have gauges on a couple of my bikes, and they are taped up on Tina's bike. You should be able to feel the speed of the bike as you increase. You'll know when you are going faster through a turn.

Not sure what group I am working this weekend, but if I am in your group, then I would be happy to give ya a tow.

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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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I was kinda joking about the speedo (although I am curious what is disconnected). Honestly the only time I even look at the tach is down the front stretch. The rest of the time I go by sound, and I can tell by where I'm at in a gear if I was fast or slower coming out of a turn versus last time.

I guess I was just curious if I was missing something in my approach, but it sounds like I'm still on the right track.

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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redduck21 View Post
ever try the "3rd gear, no brakes" drill?
I was going to suggest this, works wonders if you find yourself over braking.

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 06:02 PM
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do both days. I always find the first day I'm just getting back into the groove and the second day things really start coming together.

Oh and see you this weekend I will be there both days, bring your camera gear




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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 06:20 PM
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I'd say you've already got a good start Jeff! Half the battle is recognizing where there is room for improvement and focusing on the right solutions.
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Oh yeah, something else I just remembered. Because I'm such a puss going into T4 I remember braking inbetween T3 and T4, sometimes while just starting to lean over. Granted I knew enough to only smoothly squeeze a 'little' bit, but thinking back I was hitting the brakes because it 'felt' too fast.

Should I in NO WAY be applying the brakes anywhere but when the bike is straight up? I remember cursing myself for grabbing brakes while hanging off in a turn, but it worked at those slow speeds.

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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 09:20 PM
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Work on one turn increasing your speed into it, only that turn. Next season add that turn and say another one. Before you know it you'll get them all.

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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach View Post
Oh yeah, something else I just remembered. Because I'm such a puss going into T4 I remember braking inbetween T3 and T4, sometimes while just starting to lean over. Granted I knew enough to only smoothly squeeze a 'little' bit, but thinking back I was hitting the brakes because it 'felt' too fast.

Should I in NO WAY be applying the brakes anywhere but when the bike is straight up? I remember cursing myself for grabbing brakes while hanging off in a turn, but it worked at those slow speeds.
I'm by no means an expert but brakes while hanging off in a turn can not be a good thing. you will be shifting the weight of the bike to a contact patch that is getting smaller and smaller as you lean more. Better yet, just push on the inside bar and lean it a little more, the bike will make the turn, you just have to tell it too.




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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 10:27 PM
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Bikes turn better with less rake.
Front brake reduces rake.
Therefore bikes turn better while trail braking.

Hmmm.... never mind... just pondering.

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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 01:05 AM
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Rule 1.. dont look at the speedo

Rule 2. Get to the edge of your comfort zone, and hang out there often.



I've only done two trackdays, and I was really never feeling like the bike was gonna fly out from under me, until I think my tires went away. I feel the biggest thing in this sport is being confident in your machine. If the bike feels all wiggly under you, it's not inspiring confidence. Maybe your suspension needs some work, or maybe not. I'd let someone else ride it if it feels wrong to you.

I also think that onboard video is a huge helper. you can watch what you're doing a couple times and see where you could prolly push harder or brake later or turn deeper. Most of this going fast thing is finding out the edge of the envelope and hanging out there for a while, and getting comfortable on the outside of the envelope, thus making it bigger.. im drunk, and i cant wait tll autobahn full 23rd.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadrach View Post
Sitting here trying to formulate a gameplan for my two hours of track time at BHF this Sunday, and how I can maximize it without pushing too far, too fast.
I love a good question like this one. Kudo's to you for asking it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Screw pushing anything. Work on being smooth, and make your lines flawless.
I agree with working on being smooth and having flawless lines, but disagree with not pushing. The hard reality is that you will not get faster without pushing hard to get past your current comfort zone.

You can't be too cautious or it will never happen. You can't be too reckless or you will just crash your brains out and never learn anything. But between these two extreme is a "happy medium" where real progress is made and where real risks are mitigated.

Quote:
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With time, comes speed.
With time comes proficiency, increased comfort and confidence. But, the trick is to never settle. Time can be your enemy if you fall into riding at one pace and never make the significant effort to improve past that pace. The longer you stay in that comfort zone, the harder it is to move from it.

I see many riders reach a certain level and never move past that level for various reason. Some riders are happy with that, but it sounds like you are not that type of rider.

I also see other riders reach a certain level and keep pushing past that level to reach the next level and then keep pushing past that level to reach the next level, etc. These are the ones with scuffed up bikes and leathers.

Here's the REAL question and the answer to your question. Are you willing to overcome your fear and crash the bike?

I don't know anyone that gets significantly faster without throwing it down the road every now and then. It is the reality of the game and can not be avoided. It is impossible to find the edge without risking stepping over it.

Am I saying you should go out there and push it until you intentionally crash. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Am I saying that the road to improvement includes a high degree of probability that you will at some point crash? ABSOLUTELY.

Make a conscious decision to pursue this with your eyes wide open and knowing the risks. Make sure you have on good gear. Make sure you are on good tires. I'll be looking for you at Blackhawk this weekend.

Ron Hix
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Ron, that's excellent information and I think you completely 'got' what I was asking for.

You are spot on that my biggest obstacle is my fear of crashing the bike, but I do understand how to read the bike and 'listen' to it. I guess I'm looking for that middle ground, but I honestly prefer to err on the side of caution, which I recognize is counter-productive to finding that 'speed'.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I have made a lot of progress in just a few events, and I think all I need to do is just as you and Wink suggest, acknowleding when I'm 'in' my comfort zone and then make an effort to push just a little past it and stay there until it becomes comfortable. I do remember mentally trying to 'go faster' last time out in a failed attemt to stay with Wink and (Steve) thePro and my lines went to crap, and I immediately settled back down and concentrated on smoothness again.

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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 10:57 AM
 
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I do remember mentally trying to 'go faster' last time out in a failed attemt to stay with Wink and (Steve) thePro and my lines went to crap, and I immediately settled back down and concentrated on smoothness again.
One of the many traps I fall into (other than settling into my nice, safe comfort zone) is trying to 'go faster' without really concentrating on _how_ I can go faster. This usually leads to me pushing on the brakes and busting what I do well, or getting worse where I'm already weak. It works a lot better when I can concentrate on my riding and use a rabbit to pull me into the turns faster.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 11:10 AM
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1 don`t think about crashing...if you think crash? you will crash

2 relax and be smooth...smoother equals faster

3 working on one turn at a time helps.... when you feel you have that turn down move on to the next one. start with a corner you need to work on most

4 remember that sometimes you have to slow down to go faster see rule 2

5 don`t be afraid to get off your line. that`s what practice is for. that way when you go out there to race you won`t freak out if you get knocked off your line in a race you`ll stand a much better chance of recovery

6 always ride it through

7 find someone around your pace and work together. take turns following and critiqueing... it helps

Operating a motorcycle. So easy, even a caveman can do it. Knowing how to ride? Priceless.

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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post

I don't know anyone that gets significantly faster without throwing it down the road every now and then. It is the reality of the game and can not be avoided. It is impossible to find the edge without risking stepping over it.
I have gotten significantly faster without "throwing it down the road" or wanting to get faster. For me, time and smoothness has come speed, but I am just not in the norm I guess.

It is ,afterall, just a track day. Have fun.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-13-2007, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
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I have gotten significantly faster without "throwing it down the road" or wanting to get faster. For me, time and smoothness has come speed, but I am just not in the norm I guess.

It is ,afterall, just a track day. Have fun.
sorry bro, you have you have a different outlook on things. from my point of view on you, track days are simply to have some fun riding on the track.

others prefer to take full advantage and push and expand there limits on "track days" a track day is more for just having some fun for others.

i am not pushing your buttons or trying to homie. but thats why there is different groups for skill levels and those who move up in the ranks. you dont move up from beginner to advanced from just riding around the track as you did back in B group. or intro for that matter



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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-14-2007, 10:08 AM
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Sportbike: SV650S, ZX6R, GSXR600
Years Riding: Since 04/2003
How you found us: Google
           
Brake less, not later. Then as you get use to the higher corner speed, work on braking harder and later again. If you try to keep on pushing your brake marker back to get faster you inevitably just end up freaking yourself out and running off the track. This also helps you to become more comfortable with trail braking since you aren't coming into a turn nearly doing an endo.

Jon Gu
CCS AM/NESBA #276
JonGu is offline  
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