Bar pressure to initiate turn in - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Bar pressure to initiate turn in

I've been thinking a lot about my track riding this winter, looking for ways to improve and keep thinking about how much bar pressure other riders use to start or maintain their turn in and lean angle. I tend to use very little actual bar pressure, depending instead upon body steer and peg pressure to make the bike turn in.

So what is your technique? I'm wanting to experiment with more bar pressure this season to get the bike over and turned in quicker and want to hear some opinions.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
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give the inside clip-on a firm shove. Thats how I roll.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
give the inside clip-on a firm shove. Thats how I roll.
+1, but I also give the outside clip-on a slight pull.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVRC51 View Post
+1, but I also give the outside clip-on a slight pull.
my outside hand is usually flipping the camera guy the bird.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:39 PM
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Very little deliberate pressure on the bars.... it's more inside foot and outside knee.

Some counter-steering happens as a result of your leaning on the inside / pulling on the outside bars..... but I keep my grip really really loose.


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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 04:56 PM
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I'm with you. Body steer and peg pressure. I lower my head to the inside of the turn which may inadvertently make me put more pressure on the inside clip on but I don't consciously push on it. I used to when I first started out but after lowsiding a few times, I try to stay as light on the bars as possible.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 05:05 PM
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I also use my body but for initial turn in you can't beat finessing the bars.

Here's a book I would suggest for anyone interested. He does a good job of explaining these techniques, Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVRC51 View Post
I also use my body but for initial turn in you can't beat finessing the bars.

Here's a book i woul suggest for anyone interested. He does a good job of explaining these techniques, Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.
+1, great book.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
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This has been discussed and debated quite a bit and I think everyone has their own thought on this. In my experience, you shouldn't think about applying pressure to the bars, instead think of it as applying inputs to the bike as a whole as you'll need to use your whole body to get the bike to where it needs to be depending on where you are in the corner -- entry, mid-corner, or exit.

I’ve noticed that most riders understand what it takes to setup for a corner and get the bike to the apex and back out again. Yet, I think they get stuck here because increasing the pace at this point requires more advanced techniques. As you move your braking point closer and closer to the apex, you will find that getting the bike to turn will rely less on a what may feel like one input, and rely more on EVERYTHING - and by everything, I mean body position, pressure on controls (on rearsets or clip-ons), bike geometry (controlled with front brake), speed, entry line, mid-corner line, exit line, etc, etc, etc. The beautiful thing is that with practice, most of the inputs needed become natural and even as situations change for a specific corner, you naturally adjust to ensure that your corner exit is optimal for speed and drive. This is a hard concept to encapsulate in a few sentences, but I hope it make some sense.

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Last edited by spyder84; 03-10-2009 at 05:16 PM.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
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It the grand scheme of things, its all about how you get to the turn in point.
The quicker you can turn the bike in, the faster you can take the corner.

With that stated...
My method.

Its all about how I get to my turn in point.
Before I even sit up, I have moved my lower body into place.
This effectively has you Counter-Counter steering. You are trying to keep the bike going straight.
As I sit up, I am braking, shifting and setting my upper body to the turn.
At my turn-in point, I release the bar pressure and let the bike fall into the turn.
Using this method only works for turns, where you are braking.
It only works for those who can down-shift and brake while hanging off the bike.

For the other turns like the banking of Daytona or the back stretch for Road America, you apply as much pressure as needed to turn the bike.

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 05:21 PM
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interesting read

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outd...g/1277436.html

Generally speaking, I think Code is an old hippy that did far too many drugs in his younger days. (If you've read his books, ya know what I mean.)
But I think his point on body-steering is correct.

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 06:02 PM
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please do search on the track forum as there is tons of info like this aswell as come to one of my classes that i do.



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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Tried the search with no luck.....got a lot of hits but no specific information. Anyways, I really wanted to hear from some of the folks who did take the time and courtesy to respond. Thanks Erik, Rob, Blarney, X, Nolan and the rest.

Your riding lessons sound like a lot of fun though. If I don't have a track day scheduled when you decide to put it on I'll try and bring my street bike and put it through the paces.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmeigs View Post
Tried the search with no luck.....got a lot of hits but no specific information. Anyways, I really wanted to hear from some of the folks who did take the time and courtesy to respond. Thanks Erik, Rob, Blarney, X, Nolan and the rest.

Your riding lessons sound like a lot of fun though. If I don't have a track day scheduled when you decide to put it on I'll try and bring my street bike and put it through the paces.
Glad to help. Far be it from me to miss an opportunity to add my 2 cents.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder84 View Post
This has been discussed and debated quite a bit and I think everyone has their own thought on this. In my experience, you shouldn't think about applying pressure to the bars, instead think of it as applying inputs to the bike as a whole as you'll need to use your whole body to get the bike to where it needs to be depending on where you are in the corner -- entry, mid-corner, or exit.

I’ve noticed that most riders understand what it takes to setup for a corner and get the bike to the apex and back out again. Yet, I think they get stuck here because increasing the pace at this point requires more advanced techniques. As you move your braking point closer and closer to the apex, you will find that getting the bike to turn will rely less on a what may feel like one input, and rely more on EVERYTHING - and by everything, I mean body position, pressure on controls (on rearsets or clip-ons), bike geometry (controlled with front brake), speed, entry line, mid-corner line, exit line, etc, etc, etc. The beautiful thing is that with practice, most of the inputs needed become natural and even as situations change for a specific corner, you naturally adjust to ensure that your corner exit is optimal for speed and drive. This is a hard concept to encapsulate in a few sentences, but I hope it make some sense.

Not all opinions are created equal, ESPECIALLY on the internet. Listen and watch what the really fast guys do and say. Erik is one of those guys. He is an outstanding rider with a very natural feel and talent for the bike. What he is saying is DEAD NUTS ON the money.

Especially this part, "As you move your braking point closer and closer to the apex, you will find that getting the bike to turn will rely less on a what may feel like one input, and rely more on EVERYTHING"

Almost any technique will work at a slower pace because today's bikes and tires are that good. But to really get the bike to work at race pace, you have to be doing A LOT of things right. That means using your WHOLE BODY, at just the RIGHT TIME, in just the RIGHT AMOUNT.

Ron Hix
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Last edited by ronhix; 03-10-2009 at 09:27 PM.
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2009, 09:56 PM
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All factors affect the turn in. Everyone has already covered them above, but I'll just hop in with the guys recommending light on bars.

For what it is worth, ever see my inside hand in a left corner? Those of you that have ridden with me know that it isn't even on the bar... yet the bike turns quite well for me.

At a certain point, pushing hard on the inside bar, or yanking on the outside bar could cause a lowside.

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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
interesting read

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outd...g/1277436.html

Generally speaking, I think Code is an old hippy that did far too many drugs in his younger days. (If you've read his books, ya know what I mean.)
But I think his point on body-steering is correct.
ahhhh! I spent 20 minutes looking for that. I knew there was a video so I went to youtube and searched for everything I could think of: no bar turning motorcycle, body steering motorcycle, turn a motorcycle with your body...

glad someone got around to posting it.

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja 13 View Post
ahhhh! I spent 20 minutes looking for that. I knew there was a video so I went to youtube and searched for everything I could think of: no bar turning motorcycle, body steering motorcycle, turn a motorcycle with your body...

glad someone got around to posting it.
A good resource, methinks.

I'd like to clarify my point a bit.

If you check out the videos, you can see that body steering does only a very little bit in making the motorcycle lean. Whether people are conscious of it or not, the primary input to get the bike turned is via the clip-ons.

If you're not getting the bike over fast enough, its because you didn't put enough input into the clipons, either by pushing or pulling.

Thats NOT to say it should be a jerk or yank as some are characterizing it. Its NOT. Its a smooth but deliberate motion. Once you get it over, then you should absolutely be light on the bars. By the time I hit the apex there's barely any pressure at all.
Thats not to say body steering is useless, either. You can see that body steering on the no BS bike does cause some direction change.You'll also notice that it took some very abrupt and major body shift to get a very small change in direction. But body steering isn't, in and of itself, going to get you turned any faster.
There are piles of and piles of pointy-headed physics white papers that corroborate what the No BS bike demonstrates, and what non-naturals like myself have come to realize.

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 10:20 PM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
All factors affect the turn in. Everyone has already covered them above, but I'll just hop in with the guys recommending light on bars.

For what it is worth, ever see my inside hand in a left corner? Those of you that have ridden with me know that it isn't even on the bar... yet the bike turns quite well for me.

At a certain point, pushing hard on the inside bar, or yanking on the outside bar could cause a lowside.

So as I post and read. I am again reminded how bad my bike is setup for me. Darn all you! I hate you for reminding me. But hey, if you take away enough trail, you can make anything turn quickly Raise the rear and drop the front.

I have had on more the one occasion come into turn 5 at Putnam on a tight inside line. When pressing hard to get the bike to turn quick, the bar slams all the way to the stop and then leaps back to center. It's very disturbing. But having a knee down and being relaxed has worked each time to keep it upright. Is turn 5 where you had your incident as well Nolan?

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
So as I post and read. I am again reminded how bad my bike is setup for me. Darn all you! I hate you for reminding me. But hey, if you take away enough trail, you can make anything turn quickly Raise the rear and drop the front.

I have had on more the one occasion come into turn 5 at Putnam on a tight inside line. When pressing hard to get the bike to turn quick, the bar slams all the way to the stop and then leaps back to center. It's very disturbing. But having a knee down and being relaxed has worked each time to keep it upright. Is turn 5 where you had your incident as well Nolan?
Yup. I had been ripping through there all day going faster than I ever have. I turned in a little tight and when I tried to adjust by putting pressure on the clipons the front tucked almost instantly. I probably would have made it fine if I stayed relaxed and light on the bars like I was all day.

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