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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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NESBA Monday - ACC Full Course B Group

Hello...

Today was my first NESBA Day
Thanks Wink!
Thanks Fred (Good to see you in a better setting)

Thanks to all the control riders...
Sorry if I made many of you think I was going to duff it.. Glad I didn't

Just finished uploading one video taken in B - I believe this was just post lunch...

I know I need to work on getting head off a bit more.. and I need to do something about ground clearance or stop riding that SV as the ground clearance issues were .... well... a bit of a problem... Perhaps skipping a few meals wouldn't hurt either

In any case here is the video...

I know I wasn't nailing every (err most apexes) and if you listen to the video you're probably going to hear a lot of skrrch skrrrch around the track...

Funny thing.. What made the CR's twitch the photog seemed to enjoy... Funny how that works out eh?


Oh... and the CR's I worked with.. Post up or PM me... I was the silver sv that was throwing sparks at you guys.. in suit that looks like someone took a green highlighter to it

Last edited by iamnotgreg; 09-28-2009 at 11:52 PM. Reason: maybe this belongs in after the ride reports - mods feel free to move
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 12:11 AM Thread Starter
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oh... this was me.. in case "green highlighter suit" wasn't descriptive enough
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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 08:21 AM
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Glad to hear that you had a good time. And you are right, CRs hate sparks, photogs love them!

Glad to hear you had a safe and fun day. And I LOVE your suit!

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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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"'[
I actually bought the pics and will post some up in the form thread when they come in
First time I ever bought pics... but.. he did have some amusing ones

in any case... I was having some equipment/lean angle/body position issues I'd like to work out... I think seeing some good pics of me on the bike will help in and of itself.. but I would like some of your opinions as well...

basically I can fully get off on a couple corners (4 and 5 on south) and hit them what I consider very well.. the rest of them it feels like if I get off more than I am (and I tried working it per the CR who said I was crossed up) I felt like I was pushing wide

same for lines
I go in late .... corner hard and get back on the gas... It's what I was taught my first school (Keith Code back in ... 01 and it stuck) Control Riders don't like this way of cornering and want me to apex earlier... (i would prefer a late to anything)
feels like when I turn in as early as they want I run wide at the exits... I don't like running wide.. Although I must admit I am pretty good at navigating both wet and dry grass on a street bike.. ran through a foot deep puddle yesterday at 75 and kept her up

I think I need to go SuperMoto... but.. maybe something a bit bigger... like MaxiMoto (I could convert a GS! That'd be awesome! Supermoto for big guys)
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 10:55 AM
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I look forward to seeing the pics. As far as early vs. late apex. Virtually all corners on the street should be late in , hard out. That provides the greatest safety margin. On the track, the corners are repeated over and over again. So, the goal is to use the appropriate entrance on a per turn basis, so as to nail that apex exactly, POINTED towards the exit. This ensure that the bike gets minimal lean, maximum traction (for braking and accel), and safest ride.

Turning hard is taught by Code, yet it really is NOT the safest way to ride. SMOOTH is the best way to ride until you hit an extremely fast pace, by which time, you will have the experience to know what traction is available. The harder you turn, the more you upset the chassis, and the higher the risk of tire washout.

Just my .02.

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:21 AM
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nice video greg. if u have issues with body position it may help if someone can film u. pics are ok but they dont really tell the whole story....

vid is great but makes me sad...no more autobahn till next year....

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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This is what I need to work on... I have turned like that so long it basically is ingrained.. I do it on the street more as well as you turn later you can see where your going (like you said)

Always feels like I am going to push wide when I turn in as early as the CR's do

(I know it's a in my riding I need to work on.. talking about it in an attempt to mentally digest it.. and work around / through it)

The other thing is the getting off more.. I tend to lead with my shoulder and for some reason when I try to exaggerate how much I get off a bit more in an attempt to reduce lean angle... I feel as if it pushes me wide and I am drifting way to the outside...

I know I need to have this conversation at the track as well.. but I have a winter to think about it.. So working it out now.

I talked to a couple guys and they gave me stuff to work on, but the next to sessions I gridded up out front and just took off.. Track was empty and I didn't see really anyone most of the session.. Saw a few CR's as I came back up on some people but they were working with people so I just went on by



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
I look forward to seeing the pics. As far as early vs. late apex. Virtually all corners on the street should be late in , hard out. That provides the greatest safety margin. On the track, the corners are repeated over and over again. So, the goal is to use the appropriate entrance on a per turn basis, so as to nail that apex exactly, POINTED towards the exit. This ensure that the bike gets minimal lean, maximum traction (for braking and accel), and safest ride.

Turning hard is taught by Code, yet it really is NOT the safest way to ride. SMOOTH is the best way to ride until you hit an extremely fast pace, by which time, you will have the experience to know what traction is available. The harder you turn, the more you upset the chassis, and the higher the risk of tire washout.

Just my .02.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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nice video greg. if u have issues with body position it may help if someone can film u. pics are ok but they dont really tell the whole story....

vid is great but makes me sad...no more autobahn till next year....
This would be very helpful

I know GunShowNick offered to sometime.. but we haven't done it yet...

Just gotta find someone fast enough to keep up with me! Where oh where could I find someone like that?
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:40 AM
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just throwin my noob opinion out there.

but in my mind the key to body position is all in the way u place ur hips. do that right and everything else falls into place. open ur hips to the turn. that way ur outside thigh is tight to the tank and this also sets ur foot in the proper position. all my weight is on that inside peg and on the outside thigh against the tank. then u can literally let go of the bars and u are still glued to the bike. i wish i could show u in person it would make more sense.

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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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just throwin my noob opinion out there.

but in my mind the key to body position is all in the way u place ur hips. do that right and everything else falls into place. open ur hips to the turn. that way ur outside thigh is tight to the tank and this also sets ur foot in the proper position. all my weight is on that inside peg and on the outside thigh against the tank. then u can literally let go of the bars and u are still glued to the bike. i wish i could show u in person it would make more sense.
I ride (at least I think I do) differently on a supersport machine than I do the SV

On the SV you are more upright and it.. just feels different to climb all over it like a monkey... plus the way the suspension is setup (or.. not setup.. bone stock) too much moving around unsettles it a bit

I know what you are saying

funny thing is (and oh I know this is a rookie thing) I really thought I was leaning off more with my head/chest - I try to point a shoulder in.. I know they say head but.. maybe my neck isn't long enough or something.. So I dive at it like I am trying to knock down a door

but.. he said I was crossed up and .. leaning off with lower body a lot but more straight over (I guess I was about nipple to gas cap) where they want me to be hanging off checking my brake calipers (think Wink old avatar hang off levels)
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 12:11 PM

 
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It was good too see you again. Hopefully we can ride together more next year.

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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 12:14 PM
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I ride (at least I think I do) differently on a supersport machine than I do the SV

On the SV you are more upright and it.. just feels different to climb all over it like a monkey... plus the way the suspension is setup (or.. not setup.. bone stock) too much moving around unsettles it a bit

I know what you are saying

funny thing is (and oh I know this is a rookie thing) I really thought I was leaning off more with my head/chest - I try to point a shoulder in.. I know they say head but.. maybe my neck isn't long enough or something.. So I dive at it like I am trying to knock down a door

but.. he said I was crossed up and .. leaning off with lower body a lot but more straight over (I guess I was about nipple to gas cap) where they want me to be hanging off checking my brake calipers (think Wink old avatar hang off levels)


ridin crossed up is a system of opening ur hips the opposite way and still tring to get a knee down. although some riders that ride crossed up that ive seen are still extremely fast. body position habits are hard to break once developed. as far as it bein an sv, i cannot really comment as i have never ridden one. but certain guys on motards still lead with their hips and drag knees. i wish i could show u on a bike it would take 2 seconds. ive had this 'hips' conversation with people at the track in the last few weeks when they see me out there. they want to know what im doin to set up for my body position. i show them with the bike on a stand. guys have told me they try it out after and it helps them. but that they get sore quickly, as their not used to those muscles workin. hope this helps.

i may be wrong with my advise, im just sayin what i do.

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 12:43 PM
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Glad you had fun!

Yeah you were throwing sparks at me through a lot of the corners. The biggest issues that you need to address are upgrading from the stock springs and rear sets if you want to continue using that sv on the track. I'm guessing you're 6'3" about 260 so that sv was not set up the best to do what you and we wanted. Either way I was happy to work with you a bit and I hope to see you out there again next season on the sv, mille, or kawi.

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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It was good too see you again. Hopefully we can ride together more next year.
Great seeing you again too..
Was strange - I knew more NESBA people than I thought I did... and not just from the track... Some of them I didn't even realize the connection or know who they were in NESBA before yesterday...

In a long drawn about way I would almost call Fred and I distant somethings...

My friend Joe.. Who was as much a brother to me as my real brother...
His little brother is married to Fred's sister.. Joe introduced us back in 04... and I probably saw him a time or two before Joe's funeral.. I rode Joes other bike and Fred rode Joe's Sons bike in the funeral procession together...

I walked into the garage in the morning - when you tech'd me Greg - and my head was spinning.. With all kinds of .. Is that "that" Fred (and nobody had said his name yet) - I guess he recognized me as well.. but took us both a few to make the connection of how we knew each other

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Glad you had fun!

Yeah you were throwing sparks at me through a lot of the corners. The biggest issues that you need to address are upgrading from the stock springs and rear sets if you want to continue using that sv on the track. I'm guessing you're 6'3" about 260 so that sv was not set up the best to do what you and we wanted. Either way I was happy to work with you a bit and I hope to see you out there again next season on the sv, mille, or kawi.
6'1 (used to be 6'2 before that stupid car hit me )

I think it's about time to stop doing that to the little tractor... I have a track bike which makes it seem all the dumber for me to do it.. but they are in storage in another state and I don't have a trailer.. The SV is the bike parked behind my place downtown... So it gets used


Oh and.. I was shocked you didn't take the hint! The sparks were my James Bond'esque method of Anti-Tailgating - Figured if I sent back a stream of sparks people would back off and I'd seem faster
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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Glad to hear that you had a good time. And you are right, CRs hate sparks, photogs love them!

Glad to hear you had a safe and fun day. And I LOVE your suit!
Oh hey Wink...
Get this

I ordered this suit

and that bright green thing came in... The day before I was leaving for Road America for California Superbike School...

No time to ship it back... No time for a replacement

I still like the design of the one I ordered more.. but I have to admit.. Mine sorta... Sticks out a bit more

Oh... The one I ordered was the "Pro Tech" this is the "Techno" I do like the way they used to do armor more ... This new floating stuff doesn't seem as solid as the old turtle suits
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 03:47 PM
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I love suits that stick out on the track. Too many folks that are in black suits on black bikes going "Did you see me?"

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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I love suits that stick out on the track. Too many folks that are in black suits on black bikes going "Did you see me?"
.... So are you saying I shouldn't spray paint it black?
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:01 PM
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Yep, paint it anything BUT black. Brighter the better.

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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:28 PM
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Question for the CR's. Would the pass at around 4:54 in that video be acceptable in "B" group?

God I miss the track.

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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Question for the CR's. Would the pass at around 4:54 in that video be acceptable in "B" group?

God I miss the track.
I knew that one could probably get me 'slightly talked to'
It wasn't close.. and it was on the outside...
but... defining corner... well.. that's more of a slight "kink" right?

I knew exactly which pass you were talking about.. I just looked to double check.. yep.. that one

I was trying to keep up with the CR and he kept going around people...

I am not saying he wasn't faster than me.. Even on the same equipment I am sure he would be faster than me.. but I will say this "passing in the straights is a lot easier on a 1000RR than it is on an SV650" especially when you are trying to pass a liter bike


BTW... What is the statute of limitations on a pass like that?

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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:49 PM
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Question for the CR's. Would the pass at around 4:54 in that video be acceptable in "B" group?

God I miss the track.
No, bad pass in B (good pass in I). If he would have judged it a little better he could have waited a bike length or two and passed him instantly when the bike in front of him stood up.

My preference for that pass in B is to go UNDER (to the right) the rider in front of me as soon as they exit the kink and stand the bike up. I hit it wide open there through the pass on my SV and brake far later than they do into T8.

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
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I knew that one could probably get me 'slightly talked to'
It wasn't close.. and it was on the outside...
but... defining corner... well.. that's more of a slight "kink" right?

I knew exactly which pass you were talking about.. I just looked to double check.. yep.. that one

I was trying to keep up with the CR and he kept going around people...

I am not saying he wasn't faster than me.. Even on the same equipment I am sure he would be faster than me.. but I will say this "passing in the straights is a lot easier on a 1000RR than it is on an SV650" especially when you are trying to pass a liter bike


BTW... What is the statute of limitations on a pass like that?

Not busting your balls dude. Just wondering.

Ive heard they put you in situations like that on purpose to test your judgment, but I could be mistaken.;-)

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 04:53 PM
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Not busting your balls dude. Just wondering.

Ive heard they put you in situations like that on purpose to test your judgment, but I could be mistaken.;-)
Yes we do Craig, and if that would have been an I eval, he would have failed. BUT, he would have been told why, and how to fix it for the future.

I ALWAYS run an I eval rider into the back of a group and watch to see how they work their way through, and where they decide to make the "safer" choices for passing. Good decision making is critical to moving up.

The other issue with that pass is that the rider that he is passing WILL accelerate on exit and will be drifting to the left in such a way that it will pinch and close off any exits for the SV. Passing on the right side in that situation is FAR safer fro everyone concerned. You basically do not want to be passing bikes when they are coming AT you, but preferably when they are going away from you. (This is in track day etiquette so to say).

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Not busting your balls dude. Just wondering.

Ive heard they put you in situations like that on purpose to test your judgment, but I could be mistaken.;-)
I didn't think you were...
I kind of knew that guys lines... The previous session I rode behind him for over a lap.. Every time I got by he would blaap right by me again This time I went around him carrying quite a bit more speed so I would be gone when he was rolling on (that said.. that's not a braking corner.. I don't know that he wasn't on... He just wasn't full on)

Honestly I think that was the only "corner" pass I did the day... and I managed to get that one on video... I think I timed it a bit wrong, I knew I was carrying a bit more speed there and I figured if I left him plenty of room I would be through and gone before he noticed me...

Not sure how hard and fast the rules are towards the end of the day... I saw a bit of mid corner passing at the end of the day... and like I said that's about the closest I came (I may be wrong but I thought **at the time** that it would be safer than diving around him on the brakes and chucking it into the corner... If I did break a rule sorry.. My intention really was to get around him as safely as possible and catch back up to the CR who asked me to follow him...

I know we are supposed to either late brake them or pass them as they stand up.. but I was having a bit of difficulty with the latter (Wink I bet I have you by well over 100lbs and I bet your SV is not bone stock... Sometimes I have a hard time out accelerating the liter bikes on the straights no matter what their exit speeds were ) ... Not saying it can't be done...
Or that I am without fault...
Just sharing my mental process when I went around him and why... and yes I did think about all of that at the time (I even looked around to make sure I wouldn't get caught )

Last edited by iamnotgreg; 09-29-2009 at 05:05 PM.
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Yes we do Craig, and if that would have been an I eval, he would have failed. BUT, he would have been told why, and how to fix it for the future.

I ALWAYS run an I eval rider into the back of a group and watch to see how they work their way through, and where they decide to make the "safer" choices for passing. Good decision making is critical to moving up.

The other issue with that pass is that the rider that he is passing WILL accelerate on exit and will be drifting to the left in such a way that it will pinch and close off any exits for the SV. Passing on the right side in that situation is FAR safer fro everyone concerned. You basically do not want to be passing bikes when they are coming AT you, but preferably when they are going away from you. (This is in track day etiquette so to say).
Wouldn't a right side pass be considered the inside? That would have been my preferred method but I thought that was a big no no ?

First Nesba day... I know Outside only in I... In B no passing in corners.. Would cutting the inside there have been considered an Inside pass?

At STT in I group I would have came around the inside of the kink on exit to be honest.. There was a bit of second guessing going on (like I said in the previous msg)
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotgreg View Post
I didn't think you were...
I kind of knew that guys lines... The previous session I rode behind him for over a lap.. Every time I got by he would blaap right by me again
Dude, seriously, I aint fast, and I am not an accomplished track guy, but:

The few times Ive been on the track one thing I had learned is that in "B" group, no matter how many times youve seen a person take a corner, you really dont "know" their lines (most of the time they dont either) - too unpredictable -

Also, I dont think that pass was by any means close, just that it might be a good reference for people who have never been on the track that are thinking about doing it, and helping them get a better understanding of that rule.

Peace!

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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed.
Apologies if I was a bit aggressive there.
I didn't mean to be and I was doing my best all day to not do anything close... I know some out there might be out there for the first time and or unsure on their bikes.. and to cause someone else to crash is one of my biggest fears...

So I try to do my thing and stay out of their way..


A few years ago I inadvertently and very indirectly may have led to someone in N group crashing..

My friends and I bought a track day for my brother in law as a wedding present..

I asked permission to go in N for a couple sessions to ride with him on his first day - it was granted per approval from his CR - CR said fine.. and I slotted in towards the rear right behind him... The CR then pushed everyone out in front of him to watch them ... me included.. I waved no 2 or 3 times.. He kept waving me up... I went up and I went at approx the same pace and he rode around me and waved me forward again.. I sped up a little... I would say a strong N/B group pace.. He rode back around me and waved me ahead point and giving me the go go go...

So I tucked in (it was empty track ahead) and took off - not super fast.. but.. maybe 25% faster.. figuring I would just run quick for a couple corners.. He came chasing along and the a few people in the group upped their pace and kept up... There was an older guy in the back of the pack on a brand new SV650S and he lowsided... He walked away without a scratch but it scratched up his new bike.. I felt terrible... I know I wasn't "directly" responsible (not like in a dani pedrosa way) but.. If I wouldn't have been there - that never would have happened..

and I know I summarized and glazed the story.. suffice it to say I didn't want to go into N to show off ... I just wanted to go out there to ride with my new brother in law.. but it was kinda pushed...

in any case.. that was 4 or 5 years ago.. and I still think about it every once in a while.. So I try to keep it as safe as possible especially when there are people brand new to the track around..

So if I screwed up.. Sorry.. I'll take my lumps.

Like I said.. was just trying to get around as quick and painlessly as possible.. and I wasn't sure if 7 really counted as a "corner" (hey... a kink isn't really a corner is it? )

FWIW I won't do it again



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Dude, seriously, I aint fast, and I am not an accomplished track guy, but:

The few times Ive been on the track one thing I had learned is that in "B" group, no matter how many times youve seen a person take a corner, you really dont "know" their lines (most of the time they dont either) - too unpredictable -

Also, I dont think that pass was by any means close, just that it might be a good reference for people who have never been on the track that are thinking about doing it, and helping them get a better understanding of that rule.

Peace!
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotgreg View Post
Wouldn't a right side pass be considered the inside? That would have been my preferred method but I thought that was a big no no ?
No, not on that corner. The rule is you can pass when the bike you are passing is upright. The exit of that kink, the bikes are upright and driving out to the outside (left) edge of the track. Therefore if you time it wo that you pass them soon after the exit when they are upright, they are traveling away from you, bike is upright, and the pass is legal. If you time it before the apex, at the apex, or too close after the apex, yes, indeed that would be an inside pass. Typically, if you think about it, if you were doing and inside pass, the bike you are passing would be coming AT you. Not good, since a mistake by you could take them out, or alter their line. A well executed pass at a track day means that no one had to alter their line (or speed) for you. That, accomplished within the group's passing rules, is the goal.

That pass was clean and safe. It was not within the rules, and you could have carried more speed executing it the way that I have suggested, and it would have been safer.

By the way, B group MEANS unpredictable. Following a rider and learning how he takes a corner has very little to do with how he may take the corner the next time or the next time around. PREDICTABLE apexes and line (every apex, every lap), with a modicum of speed, combined with good decision making is an I rider. An A rider has speed, line, and is unflappable when passed close on the inside or outside.

As far as I could tell, you were riding great and you will be NESBA "I" in no time. Just don't expect a bump on the same session that you broke a rule. Many times for an eval, we will have a CR in front towing you, and a CR behind (unknown to you) watching how you deal with the traffic the CR throws at you.

One final point - the rules are the rules. They don't change as the day goes on, as the year goes on, or based on the track that you are on. As CRs, we strive to be consistent in enforcement, in teaching, and in bump evaluations. We try to have that consistency stretch nationwide so that you can go to any NESBA event anywhere in the country, and KNOW what you can expect from the "I" and "A" riders. Just remember, "B" riders by definition are not predictable.

===========
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 07:30 PM
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I must spread some rep around before giving it to Brian (Wink) again. I never thought of the passing from that point of view (pass on the inside exit out of the turn, where they won't run wide into you). Thanks.

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