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post #1 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Is the middle class dead?

I really want to hear your honest opinion about the subject. I think besides all of the noise out there about politics this one issue is really important. There are examples all over the world where the economic system simply collapses if there is no strong middle class. I think most of this community is somewhat isolated because there are a lot of people here with disposable income (meaning able to afford the motorcycle hobbie which is expensive.)

We do see more and more how people are selling their bikes not just to upgrade but simply because they need the cash.

So what is your take on it, do you think the middle class is dead or on its way there?

(Try keeping it in the realm of economics, I know politics and policy do affect this topic, but how are thins affecting you or those around you?)

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post #2 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:21 PM
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squeezed from all directions it feels like, the class is shrinking

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post #3 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:22 PM
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Yes the middle class is disappearing. Its been 50 yrs in the making. 1st it was 1 parent working, then 2 parents, now credit is being used to cover the difference.

Why its happening is the real debate.

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post #4 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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I hate statistics because they are so inaccurate, but from everywhere I look it seems like retirement funds are shrinking (or non existent for some) and disposable income for a lot of people seems like a thing of the past.

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post #5 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:28 PM
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a lot of it has to do imho with how people manage themselves... disposable incom shrinks as they rachet up their standard of living, the plain fully functioning 5yo car is not "acceptable" they need a new one, right after they finished paying off the previous, same with "toys" latest greates cellphones are an ever accelerating race house flipping, ARM mortgages cause you dont plan on staying youre gonna sell and move up again in a few years, never pay off the debt. its all the little things that are no longer considered luxuries bleeding away the disposable income

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post #6 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with Jason, the keeping up with the Johnses seems to be an epidemic... however, isn't that the American Dream, that everyone can come here and become the Johnses. It used to be through hard work, now its trough credit?

At the same time you can also look at the trend of pay. Most people are not getting raises and unless you already have a decent income, if in the last 5 years you did not see a pay bump, not many can keep up with cost of living increase. Food/Gas are both a lot more expensive than they were just 5 years ago.

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post #7 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotx1 View Post
a lot of it has to do imho with how people manage themselves... disposable incom shrinks as they rachet up their standard of living, the plain fully functioning 5yo car is not "acceptable" they need a new one, right after they finished paying off the previous, same with "toys" latest greates cellphones are an ever accelerating race house flipping, ARM mortgages cause you dont plan on staying youre gonna sell and move up again in a few years, never pay off the debt. its all the little things that are no longer considered luxuries bleeding away the disposable income
^+1 We all wanna live like ballers. Moneys got to come from somewhere and for most people its not from their checking account.

I never understood paying off a car that is perfectly acceptable and feeling a need to get a new one just for the heck of it. Although I never understood buying a car new either. Way to much depreciation in the first year or two.
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post #8 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:50 PM
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Added to the point of things are more expensive, the "standard" living expenses are higher. Cellphone bill, cable bill, internet bill, insurance on all the toys..... it adds up to a hefty chunk every month.

The standard of living is also getting better, so the middle class is shrinking, but the lower class is still living good. TVs, cars, cell phones is standard for someone making minimum wage.

I agree on the wage issue .....I'm in a damn good job, and my salary has barely kept up with inflation, let alone grow faster than.
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post #9 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:54 PM
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This world is a fucked up place right now. Won't be fixed any time soon either. Middle class is shrinking, possibly never to return. You are either upper class with a shitton of money and don't care, or you are losing ground, unless you are completely poor, then things should be looking up.
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post #10 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:54 PM
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poor in this country now means a car and a smart phone, ever watch good hair? how can poor people spend sooo much on hair?

the real problem is taxes, the personal tax you know you pay, the hidden taxes you pay, the tax on the evil corparations who dont pay their fair share and then add the tax they pay to the cost of everything you and i buy

the tax those evil companies would pay on foreign profits but dont cause its high so they just leave that money in the country they earned it in and create jobs there

that chases money out of this country and when it leaves, its not here to circulate, hence we have much less to go around

the money leaves this country in a hundred ways and none of it is good for us

money leaves to pay for drugs(pot) that should all be grown here
dealers used to be ballers and buy new cars, the feds stepped in and bust people who pay in cash and the car dealers, motorcycle dealers and the manufacturers loose out on those sales

illegal and legal immigrants send mony back home by the billions

our government gives away hundreds of billions in foreign aid to countys who hate us taking money from america's poor and giving it to wealthy dictators who dont feed the people like we are conditioned to think should do at a time when we borrow billions a day to cover the difference in what we spend vs what the govt takes in

obama just asked for another trillion and a half debt yet when a senator he declared bush to be unpatriotic for doing same when debt was 1/3rd what it is now

debt to GDP is getting to 100% greece is 113% we will be there soon, then the IMF will forclose on us and the world will start telling us what to do

all part of the planned new world order, enjoy
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post #11 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 06:29 PM
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they concept of buying shit only when u can pay for it is dead. and why not its so fucking easy to just run up ur debt..no biggie..

"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"

"Thats it, nobody gets out of here alive."

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post #12 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 07:01 PM
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All excellent points here. To further elroy's thought, I we pay roughly 40-50% of our income in taxes, directly or indirectly.

Another thing to add is that the next generation is falling behind in education (primarily because other countries are better educating their youth). More and more low/medium skill labor jobs are vanishing. Young people are becoming more materialistic, expecting an unreal standard of living, borrowing more and straying from family values.

More kids are born out of wedlock. With working single parents, very likely children will not receive proper education, good parenting or guidance.

Society is becoming more rude and hostile. Common courtesy is disappearing. People are looking for opportunities to stab others in the back for a quick buck.

Shit's getting real yo! I'm gonna have to move to Norway in a few years.
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post #13 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleZ View Post
Added to the point of things are more expensive, the "standard" living expenses are higher. Cellphone bill, cable bill, internet bill, insurance on all the toys..... it adds up to a hefty chunk every month.
The things you own end up owning you.

Life has no instruction manual. Parts and labor can be impossible to find. Many go down the road with parts that are in need of service. A breakdown is eventual.
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post #14 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 08:45 PM
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The things you own end up owning you.

That's absolutly true .



Seriosly, how is the term "middle class" defined ?



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post #15 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 09:09 PM
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The things you own end up owning you.
+1

Debt free is the only way to go. Excpet for the mortage

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post #16 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 10:21 PM
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People are looking for opportunities to stab others in the back for a quick buck.
I have noticed this lately.
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post #17 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 11:37 PM
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As I see it the "middle class" is being squeezed because the middle class doesn't understand itself. Our society defines itself by the amount of things you have...In order to be middle class you have to have all the trappings so the folks over consume and over extend and the next thing you know you're cash poor and deep in debt with 3 big screen TV's, 2 or 3 cars, a house mortgaged to the hilt and remortgaged a few times to help cover the need for things so there is no equity, every kid has their own computer and cell phone, Mom & Dad have a cell phone, the garage is full of toys like bikes & dirtbikes and golf clubs and tennis rackets and a boat or personal water craft that are hardly used and the shelves in the bedrooms are full of DVD's watched only once IF it was a popular movie and video games and CD's and CD players and every kid has broadband and every house has central air that goes on before Memorial day and doesn't go off until Columbus day and the boys are all signed up for little league, hockey & soccer and the girls are in all of that AND dance class and Turners or whatever in spite of the fact they HATE going etc. etc. etc....It's a vicious cycle of a false need to have it all and the flippant attitude that it's worth going deep into debt to have it!
YES...the middle class is dying and is for some dead....death is the result of SUICIDE!!!

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post #18 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 01:01 AM
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Good good....

The poorer we are and reliant on the system we become the greater the power the deciders have over the people.









After all, they know what's best for You.
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post #19 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLARNEY View Post
That's absolutly true .



Seriosly, how is the term "middle class" defined ?



Tom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class


Interesting read .... And some speculation on the notion that the middle class is shrinking.


To be sure .... With the economic downturn and a high debt ratio it's perilous times for the middle class .......


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post #20 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:13 AM

 
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The middle class will completely fail and be divided into a small % moving up and a large % moving down.

If you don't believe it please refer to the decline of the Roman empire and compare to USA. Some key elements were/are;
large army abroad
economic change from manufacturing country to service oriented
heavy credit
entitlement mentality of its citizens
and the list goes on and on.

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post #21 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:34 AM
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I know there is a new class called (just getting by) and I am in it.



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post #22 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLARNEY View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class


Interesting read .... And some speculation on the notion that the middle class is shrinking.


To be sure .... With the economic downturn and a high debt ratio it's perilous times for the middle class .......


Tom
That link didn't at all help understand what the middle class is
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post #23 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 12:46 PM
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It's funny that on one side the classes are based on education, on another by income. Yet both aren't always correlated.
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post #24 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 12:53 PM
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In my long, long, long life I've had to sell either my bike or my car/truck twice to pay for some gigantic bill caused by a family crisis. Mostly health related. It seems I've never had a large enough cushion to prevent the sale of one or more of my toys. This isn't something new. Just sayin'. So, boo hoo.

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post #25 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
I know there is a new class called (just getting by) and I am in it.
How is having sweet camera equipment, "just getting by?" People who are "just getting by" juggle bills not tripods...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047 View Post
As long as their tits are bigger than their dicks, im in.

-"You will meet your destiny on the road of avoidance."

-"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why we call it the present."

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post #26 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyleg View Post
How is having sweet camera equipment, "just getting by?" People who are "just getting by" juggle bills not tripods...
its all a matter of escalation...

-Jason
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post #27 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 04:40 PM
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Ecaxtly what you guys are talking about...those jones people. See post #5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047 View Post
As long as their tits are bigger than their dicks, im in.

-"You will meet your destiny on the road of avoidance."

-"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why we call it the present."

-"It's not considered premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married."
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post #28 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 12:54 AM
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Low class. Living in an apartment or trailer home. Needing government aid.

middle class. Own/mortgage a home and can support family with their own income.



middle class of the 50s isn't the same as todays "i want cool shit eventhough i'm broke"


people use to save up to have something in the 50s. And things were very expensive. 10 years to get a TV, Only 1 car. woman stayed home. People saved to own something. There was a lot less "electronic needs" back in the 50s.

people didnt need electronics to live. they had the YMCA, hobbies, radio, hanging out t the rollerskate diner etc... Bowling, ice cream parlors.
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post #29 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-16-2012, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyleg View Post
How is having sweet camera equipment, "just getting by?" People who are "just getting by" juggle bills not tripods...

Thats because Odysseys makes 10,000 a week. And he spent 9,000 on camera equipement in that week. 1,000 bucks is just getting by.



playas gotta have balling camera to be posting pics of sweet rims on the work van for facebook biotches.
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post #30 of 82 (permalink) Old 01-16-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwa View Post
It's funny that on one side the classes are based on education, on another by income. Yet both aren't always correlated.



Gubment can't measure motivation ..... or we might have a corollary.



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