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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Transparency? Nah...

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,6646341.story

WASHINGTON — Just as the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform was about to vote Eric H. Holder Jr. in contempt of Congress for failing to comply with a subpoena for documents in the flawed Fast and Furious gun-tracking case, President Obama asserted executive privilege and backed up the attorney general’s position in refusing to turn over the material.

The fast-moving events Wednesday morning at the White House and on Capitol Hill significantly ratcheted up a growing constitutional clash between the two branches of the federal government, one that ultimately may not be resolved until it reaches the courts.

The Republican-led committee, chaired by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Vista), will ask the full House for a floor vote holding Holder in contempt and requesting the U.S. Attorney in Washington, D.C., or a special prosecutor to force the attorney general to produce the documents.

“The committee has uncovered serious wrongdoing by the Justice Department,” Issa said of his investigation into Fast and Furious, in which several thousand firearms were deliberately circulated along the Southwest border and ended up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels. “That wrongdoing has cost lives on both sides of the border.”

Moments before the committee hearing, the White House announced that Obama had formally exerted executive privilege in the matter, giving Holder cover from releasing the material to the committee.

“We regret that we have arrived at this point,” Deputy Atty. Gen. James M. Cole told Issa in a letter that arrived on the Hill just before the committee went into session.

He said making the documents public “would have significant, damaging consequences,” but he did not disclose whether Obama has been briefed or had another supervisory role in Fast and Furious.

In a separate letter that Holder wrote to Obama shortly before the committee session, asking for executive privilege, the attorney general said he had “concluded that you may properly assert executive privilege over the documents at issue, and I respectfully request you do so.” Holder also did not mention any involvement by Obama in Fast and Furious.

According to the Obama White House, President George W. Bush asserted executive privilege six times during his two terms, and President Bill Clinton 14 times during his eight years in Washington.

“In fact,” said Eric Schultz, an Obama White House spokesman, “dating back to President Reagan, presidents have asserted executive privilege 24 times. President Obama has gone longer without asserting the privilege in a congressional dispute than any president in the last three decades.”

Republicans said Obama's move raises serious questions.

Sen. Chuck Grassley, ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, asked how Obama could assert executive privilege "if there is no White House involvement?"

A spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner said Obama's move "implies that White House officials were either involved in the 'Fast and Furious' operation or the cover-up that followed."

"The administration has always insisted that wasn't the case. Were they lying, or are they now bending the law to hide the truth?" Brendan Buck said.

Staff writer Michael A. Memoli contributed to this report

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 10:45 AM
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LoL, bush used it once to protect two innocent border patrol agents jailed for shooting at drug warlords attacking from mexico.

bamy bam wants to use it to protect his ass as well as his buddies.
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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It was amazing to find out that if Holder was actually found "guilty" he would received "up to" a $1,000 fine and "up to" one year in jail. Really? $1000 fine? We all know no one is going to go to jail for this. What a joke. Instead we are worried about Roger Clemens lying about roids. Better yet, that fucker got off free as well.

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 12:26 PM
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It's all an election year floor show.


Nothing of substance here, move along.

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by beac83 View Post
It's all an election year floor show.


Nothing of substance here, move along.


Just because you dont know whats going on doesn't mean you should tell others to ignore a BIG fucking issue.


Holder is responsible for the death of a US border patrol agent and should be held accountable past a 1k slap on the wrist.
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReBReTHa View Post
Just because you dont know whats going on doesn't mean you should tell others to ignore a BIG fucking issue.


Holder is responsible for the death of a US border patrol agent and should be held accountable past a 1k slap on the wrist.
That is a very loaded statement. In this situation the only charge was contempt and it comes with the penalty you mentioned.

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FiReBReTHa View Post
Just because you dont know whats going on doesn't mean you should tell others to ignore a BIG fucking issue.


Holder is responsible for the death of a US border patrol agent and should be held accountable past a 1k slap on the wrist.
That isn't even close to what this is about. DOJ has fully admitted to screwing up and giving the committee all the records leading up to the program. Period. The only thing being withheld is internal correspondence on how the executive branch was going to respond to congress about the erroneous 2/4/11 letter sent by Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Senator Chuck Grassley. Furthermore, Holder has publicly denounced the operation as being fundamentally flawed. No one in the DOJ is denying that Fast and Furious was anything but a massive screw up.

Issa's past attacks reek of politics and he has not made a solid case on needing these records. Conversely, the Executive Branch has made a firm case as to why they shouldn’t be disclosed. Frankly I think this is doomed and will hurt Mitt's bid as it will further distract voters from the economy and paint Republicans as politically motivated obstructionists.

Oh yeah, I forgot. most are politically motivated obstructionists. :

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Runner View Post
That isn't even close to what this is about. DOJ has fully admitted to screwing up and giving the committee all the records leading up to the program. Period. The only thing being withheld is internal correspondence on how the executive branch was going to respond to congress about the erroneous 2/4/11 letter sent by Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Senator Chuck Grassley. Furthermore, Holder has publicly denounced the operation as being fundamentally flawed. No one in the DOJ is denying that Fast and Furious was anything but a massive screw up.

Issa's past attacks reek of politics and he has not made a solid case on needing these records. Conversely, the Executive Branch has made a firm case as to why they shouldn’t be disclosed. Frankly I think this is doomed and will hurt Mitt's bid as it will further distract voters from the economy and paint Republicans as politically motivated obstructionists.

Oh yeah, I forgot. most are politically motivated obstructionists. :


and this is how politics screwed this whole situation up. Someone has to be held accountable. But not seeing anything happen. Holders anti firearm agenda pushed them to allow firearms to mobilize across the border to instill fear in americans and in the end, killed an american.

And from the mud coming out once there was transparency in IL's spending it doesn't surprise me that they dont want to open up the ATF documents.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 01:47 PM
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OK, so how does this specifically relate to Holder and the contempt charges?

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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That isn't even close to what this is about. DOJ has fully admitted to screwing up and giving the committee all the records leading up to the program. Period. The only thing being withheld is internal correspondence on how the executive branch was going to respond to congress about the erroneous 2/4/11 letter sent by Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Senator Chuck Grassley. Furthermore, Holder has publicly denounced the operation as being fundamentally flawed. No one in the DOJ is denying that Fast and Furious was anything but a massive screw up.

Issa's past attacks reek of politics and he has not made a solid case on needing these records. Conversely, the Executive Branch has made a firm case as to why they shouldn’t be disclosed. Frankly I think this is doomed and will hurt Mitt's bid as it will further distract voters from the economy and paint Republicans as politically motivated obstructionists.

Oh yeah, I forgot. most are politically motivated obstructionists. :
Reeking of politics or not. Someone should be held accountable for these actions instead of saying it's a "screw up" and letting everyone go on their merry way. The reason why he is be held in contempt is a political ploy and effectively takes away from the real issue.

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FiReBReTHa View Post
Just because you dont know whats going on doesn't mean you should tell others to ignore a BIG fucking issue.


Holder is responsible for the death of a US border patrol agent and should be held accountable past a 1k slap on the wrist.
Not sure that it really is a big issue. As noted, the facts of the case are known. What the Committee is trying to access is documents relating to internal Executive Branch discussions. Unless these contain evidence of illegal activity, they likely are covered by Executive Privilege, and should not be shared.

The equalivalent is you discover you kid has shoplifted from a store. The head of the family makes a misleading statement to the police. You and your family have an internal discussion on how to deal with that misleading statement. The police want a transcript of that discussion.

Overreaching? I don't know. But with the timing of the hearing, the approaching election, and the lack of any latent evidence of criminal wrongdoing within those discussions, it's hard for me to get too excited about this.

Maybe if more information comes out, I'll change my mind, but for now, I see it as a 100% political show.

And if Holder is responsible for the death of the ATF or Border agent, then by the same logic, Bush and Obama are responsible for every death (military, civilian, ours & theirs) in the Iraq and Afganistan wars.

Painted Blue - I agree that someone should be held responsible. But life isn't fair, and people do get away with murder, while others get stuck holding the bag for things they did not do.

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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 03:10 PM
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Someone, not Holder and not over this.

The contempt play "is a political ploy and effectively takes away from the real issue".

Perspective is everything.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 03:11 PM
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Not sure that it really is a big issue. As noted, the facts of the case are known. What the Committee is trying to access is documents relating to internal Executive Branch discussions. Unless these contain evidence of illegal activity, they likely are covered by Executive Privilege, and should not be shared.

The equalivalent is you discover you kid has shoplifted from a store. The head of the family makes a misleading statement to the police. You and your family have an internal discussion on how to deal with that misleading statement. The police want a transcript of that discussion.

Overreaching? I don't know. But with the timing of the hearing, the approaching election, and the lack of any latent evidence of criminal wrongdoing within those discussions, it's hard for me to get too excited about this.

Maybe if more information comes out, I'll change my mind, but for now, I see it as a 100% political show.

And if Holder is responsible for the death of the ATF or Border agent, then by the same logic, Bush and Obama are responsible for every death (military, civilian, ours & theirs) in the Iraq and Afganistan wars.

Painted Blue - I agree that someone should be held responsible. But life isn't fair, and people do get away with murder, while others get stuck holding the bag for things they did not do.

War is different from keeping our borders safe and playing a gamble to try to prove your political agenda.

I can understand you connecting it to the election and thinking its election agenda but some of us have been following this for a long time now.
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 03:19 PM
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Yea, not saying it wasn't a massive F*ckup. But the current actions in the House are purely political.

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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, not saying it wasn't a massive F*ckup. But the current actions in the House are purely political.
Yes and no. This has been an issue way before the election was in the news. (which might not even be possible since these fuckers are always campaigning ). Anything of this sort is always going to look political because it's the right pushing on the left and vice versa. Again you can't win either way because everything has to be about party lines and not whether something is right or wrong.

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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by beac83 View Post
It's all an election year floor show.


Nothing of substance here, move along.
Hold on a sec...you really, honestly, don't think that arming drug cartels in Mexico through "illegal" means in the US while Mexican government HAS NO IDEA OF IT is "nothing of substance"? Seriously?

Politics aside, this is a legitimate story...and Holder has dug his own hole here, no question. IMO, the Republicans have played this perfectly, as far as timing in moving forward. Is the investigation political?? Certainly not. Is the timing? Without question. That doesn't change its importance.

Simply sloughing it off as "nothing of substance" is just as lame as folks claiming that it's not being politicized. As per usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 05:40 PM
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Ruh-Roh.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Ga...-Approval.aspx

Tom

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In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 05:44 PM
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From Jay Carney:

Quote:
"We absolutely agree with the need to find out the truth about why Fast & Furious happened, why the tactic, again, was employed in the previous administration, in different operations and was stopped by this Attorney General, why it came about. And that's why the Attorney General referred it to Inspector General. That is why we have provided Congress every document that pertains to the operation itself that is at issue here when you talk about the family that you referred to," White House press secretary Jay Carney said at his briefing today.
...and of course the truth, from the Telegraph:

Quote:
It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.
How does anyone believe a word out of Carney's mouth anymore?

Tom

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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 08:56 PM
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Tom,

No, the primary story is of substance. From what we know so far, it was a total and complete failure of management and control. I am still waiting for the culprits to face the music, just like I'm still waiting for the culprits in the Iran-Contra affair to face the music, and the full story about how that operation contributed to the US Crack Cocaine epidemic to be revealed. (The same CIA planes that delivered arms to the Contras were carrying Cocaine back north.) And the full story about how the US hostages managed to get released on Reagan's Inauguration Day to be revealed.

But I doubt I'll ever get the full story on any of that stuff, this one included.

The current political controversy about accessing internal Executive documents however, is not of substance.

Don't confuse the two. No Congressional committee is actively trying to get to the bottom of the real story. They are just trying to score political points in an election year.

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2012, 09:08 PM
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Yes and no. This has been an issue way before the election was in the news. (which might not even be possible since these fuckers are always campaigning ). Anything of this sort is always going to look political because it's the right pushing on the left and vice versa. Again you can't win either way because everything has to be about party lines and not whether something is right or wrong.
Yea, this election campaign has been going on since November 5, 2008.

As I said in my reply to Tom, the F&F actual story is important. My guess is that the members of the Committee already have been briefed on exactly who, what and how this happened. But that doesn't provide any real political ammo.
And I'm sure that all parties want to keep that info 'classified" to protect their friends.

I guess I harbor more cynicism than I usually let on.

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 01:39 AM
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I've read several news stories that state that Obama's decision to use executive privilage is hurting his campaign. The stories point out that many American's feel that he is trying to stop the investigation because he was involved. Really under the circumstances it seems the most likely reason for Obama's use of executive privilage. The other theory is that he is trying to protect Holder. Even if protecting Holder was the reason for his use of executive privilage it is also being viewed unfavorably by voters. As far as the timing all you can say is that the committee has been pressing for the information for a long long time. Holder has been holding out and stalling. This stalling makes Holder look guilty or that he was stalling to protect Obama. So yes it can make the republicans look like obstructionist but the impact to Obama campaign seems to be bigger in voters minds. Really in light of the damage that it is doing to the Obama campaign wouldn't it be in their best interest to cooperate fully and release the documents if in fact they are innocent? Regardless of the political angles from either side it is an issue that needs to be investigated and the truth needs to come out. I don't give a hoot about the timing myself. An American border agent was murdered as a result of this botched plan. Shouldn't that count more than your personal views on our current president and would you vote for Obama if you knew he was involved? Does this influence people in voting? The news stories seem to think so. Prior to the most recent developments I think many voters were already looking at fast and furious as one of many reasons not to vote for Obama.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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...and the full story about how that operation contributed to the US Crack Cocaine epidemic to be revealed. (The same CIA planes that delivered arms to the Contras were carrying Cocaine back north.)

But I doubt I'll ever get the full story on any of that stuff, this one included.
There is this.



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I've read several news stories that state that Obama's decision to use executive privilage is hurting his campaign. The stories point out that many American's feel that he is trying to stop the investigation because he was involved. Really under the circumstances it seems the most likely reason for Obama's use of executive privilage. The other theory is that he is trying to protect Holder. Even if protecting Holder was the reason for his use of executive privilage it is also being viewed unfavorably by voters. As far as the timing all you can say is that the committee has been pressing for the information for a long long time. Holder has been holding out and stalling. This stalling makes Holder look guilty or that he was stalling to protect Obama. So yes it can make the republicans look like obstructionist but the impact to Obama campaign seems to be bigger in voters minds. Really in light of the damage that it is doing to the Obama campaign wouldn't it be in their best interest to cooperate fully and release the documents if in fact they are innocent? Regardless of the political angles from either side it is an issue that needs to be investigated and the truth needs to come out. I don't give a hoot about the timing myself. An American border agent was murdered as a result of this botched plan. Shouldn't that count more than your personal views on our current president and would you vote for Obama if you knew he was involved? Does this influence people in voting? The news stories seem to think so. Prior to the most recent developments I think many voters were already looking at fast and furious as one of many reasons not to vote for Obama.
Unfortunately, it still won't matter. And I mean that to the extent that voters will still hold their nose and vote for him.

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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 01:47 PM
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There is this.





Unfortunately, it still won't matter. And I mean that to the extent that voters will still hold their nose and vote for him.

Did you start doing Cocaine because the government had a gun to peoples head saying do cocaine?


I know the CIA must be doing something because all of OWS smoke marijuana and are unemployed.
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 02:00 PM
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I've read several news stories that state that Obama's decision to use executive privilage is hurting his campaign. The stories point out that many American's feel that he is trying to stop the investigation because he was involved. Really under the circumstances it seems the most likely reason for Obama's use of executive privilage. The other theory is that he is trying to protect Holder. Even if protecting Holder was the reason for his use of executive privilage it is also being viewed unfavorably by voters. As far as the timing all you can say is that the committee has been pressing for the information for a long long time. Holder has been holding out and stalling. This stalling makes Holder look guilty or that he was stalling to protect Obama. So yes it can make the republicans look like obstructionist but the impact to Obama campaign seems to be bigger in voters minds. Really in light of the damage that it is doing to the Obama campaign wouldn't it be in their best interest to cooperate fully and release the documents if in fact they are innocent? Regardless of the political angles from either side it is an issue that needs to be investigated and the truth needs to come out. I don't give a hoot about the timing myself. An American border agent was murdered as a result of this botched plan. Shouldn't that count more than your personal views on our current president and would you vote for Obama if you knew he was involved? Does this influence people in voting? The news stories seem to think so. Prior to the most recent developments I think many voters were already looking at fast and furious as one of many reasons not to vote for Obama.
Just so I'm clear.

So basically you are saying that Issa's smear campaign is working, "people" are no longer looking at the specifics of the case or if the request is reasonable, are confusing what is being asked for with the admitted botched plan, are ass-u-ming that Issa's requests are not politically motivated, where there is smoke there is fire, are wrapping everything up in a synergistic whole, that the executive branch must be hiding something other than their internal correspondence on how to deal with the committee's request, that there must be some sort of additional malfeasance going on, and that Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya who needs to be removed from power at any cost. Does that sum it up?

BTW, how's that for a run on sentence?

There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe. Nothing remains in its original state, each day, each hour, each moment, there is change. Change is the essence of life. Embrace change as you do life. To fight change is to live in the past.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 02:04 PM
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Unfortunately, it still won't matter. And I mean that to the extent that voters will still hold their nose and vote for him.
Please give me a better alternative. Really! There is no sarcasm in this request! I have a lot of concerns about Obama. Unfortunately, I have more concerns about where the Republican party has gone, their actions and plans.

There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe. Nothing remains in its original state, each day, each hour, each moment, there is change. Change is the essence of life. Embrace change as you do life. To fight change is to live in the past.
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
d0 work s0n!
 
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Please give me a better alternative. Really! There is no sarcasm in this request! I have a lot of concerns about Obama. Unfortunately, I have more concerns about where the Republican party has gone, their actions and plans.
I'm not requesting anything. I'm just saying what I believe people (voters) will do. I agree both parties have gone down the shitter. The alternative would be to write someone in or not vote.

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when i start to come undone, stitch me together.
when you see me stretched remind me of what left this outlaw torn."
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 03:52 PM
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I'm not requesting anything. I'm just saying what I believe people (voters) will do. I agree both parties have gone down the shitter. The alternative would be to write someone in or not vote.
I don't find the alternative appealing. I want my vote to count for something otherwise I won't bother to go in and waste my time. I'd just like to vote for someone I like vs. vote against someone I dislike. Currently, I loathe the Republican party as they have gone too far to the right, forgot how to spell the words compromise and cooperation and seem to only know how to attack. For some reason the phrase “idealistically fragile” is springing to mind. It is like they are so focused on their agenda or special interest groups they have lost situational awareness. That is never a good thing and more times than not causes major screw ups.

There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe. Nothing remains in its original state, each day, each hour, each moment, there is change. Change is the essence of life. Embrace change as you do life. To fight change is to live in the past.
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 07:49 PM
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How exactly was the plan "botched"?? It was a terribly construed plan in the first place, that's the underlying point here.

Who is politicizing this more??

Tom

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Originally Posted by Tacitus
In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 08:00 PM
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Fixed it for you.

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Originally Posted by Blade Runner View Post
I don't find the alternative appealing. I want my vote to count for something otherwise I won't bother to go in and waste my time. I'd just like to vote for someone I like vs. vote against someone I dislike. Currently, I loathe the Democrats as they have gone too far to the left, forgot how to spell the words compromise and cooperation and seem to only know how to attack. For some reason the phrase “idealistically fragile” is springing to mind. It is like they are so focused on their agenda or special interest groups they have lost situational awareness. That is never a good thing and more times than not causes major screw ups.
Point is both parties have moved too far to the extremes, especially since BHO took office -the Great Divider-, and have lost sight of the common sense middle ground.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

....Abraham Lincoln
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 08:42 PM
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Fiscally, there is no middle ground...not right now...and that's all I really care about.

Tom

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In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.
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