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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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obama care will bankrupt Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by townhall fianance
Nearly 6 million Americans will get hit by the penalty-tax provision of ObamaCare that forces individuals to buy insurance or pay Uncle Sam according to a Sept. 19, 2012 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report. That's a 50 percent increase from the CBO's 2010 estimate about 2 million more people.


The CBO further predicts that the average penalty will be $1,200 per year, and that nearly 80 percent of those forced to pay the penalty-tax would be middle or lower-income wage earners. According to calculations by the AP, that would include individuals earning $55,850 or less and $115,250 or less for a family of four.

Yet again, the President's policies violate his repeated promise to not raise taxes of any kind on individuals earning less than $200,000 per year or couples below $250,000.

The CBO estimates the mandated penalty-tax will generate $6.9 billion of new revenue for the government by 2016 and $8 billion per year thereafter. The rotten Obama economy is the primary reason for the big increase according to the report. In addition, several states have elected to opt out of the huge expansion
1200 dollars is a very expensive tax.


This is going to kill small business too, and they will either fire employees or cut their hours. I'm glad I didn't quit my job.
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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added note too


It is cheaper for small businesses to pay the fine then to pay for health care. But it is an expense which hurts a struggling business.
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 07:25 AM
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I don't have insurance because I can't afford it, not because it's not available. And now I will be forced to pay for it one way or another. I still don't understand how this is a good thing.

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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 07:42 AM
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Not even going to get into this complicated topic but have a statement that all of us as Americans should be ashamed of.
We are the self proclaimed best place on the planet to live yet just the act of getting sick can leave you penniless, having medical care is so expensive that you need "insurance" to pay for it. Something so basic being a luxury seems like fucked up priorities for a country so wealthy.

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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 08:24 AM
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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 09:09 AM
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Personal accountability and freedom of choice. Both are becoming extinct in the US.

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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 09:10 AM
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Oh, and BTW, America is already bankrupt.

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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under200 View Post
Not even going to get into this complicated topic but have a statement that all of us as Americans should be ashamed of.
We are the self proclaimed best place on the planet to live yet just the act of getting sick can leave you penniless, having medical care is so expensive that you need "insurance" to pay for it. Something so basic being a luxury seems like fucked up priorities for a country so wealthy.
Having a good life is a choice not a right. If you want health insurance find a job that provides it. If you do not want health insurance you should have the choice to not get it.

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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyleg View Post
I don't have insurance because I can't afford it, not because it's not available. And now I will be forced to pay for it one way or another. I still don't understand how this is a good thing.
This is my understanding of how this is supposed to work.

There is a percentage of people without insurance who
Are in a particular demographic that are less likely to
Become sick or injured or whatever. I suppose young
Adults mostly.

By getting them into the pool with the rest, it will
Lower premiums for everyone.

Also, I dont think hospitals turn away uninsured people with
Potentially fatal injuries. They fix em up and send them a
Huge bill that ends up in the trash.

Trauma surgeons don't work for free, so the cost of those
Procedures gets passed on to the rest of us.

I'm not saying I agree with forced insurance,
But there is some logical merit.
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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 11:25 AM
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There's something wrong with the equation of getting hurt, getting taken to a hospital involuntarily, given treatment and medicine without knowledge or discussion of the costs, and then being forced to pay. I'm not saying anything specific, other than the equation is broken. Not even sure what the solution is. The fact doctors, hospitals, drug reps and companies, and anybody involved with healthcare are balling out of control is probably the first clue though.

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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taledarkside View Post
1200 dollars is a very expensive tax.


This is going to kill small business too, and they will either fire employees or cut their hours. I'm glad I didn't quit my job.
Funny as a small business ower I'm looking forward to this. I firmly believe in providing quality health insurance to my employees. I've done it for over 30 years. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I do believe I have a responsibility that goes beyond maxing my personal income. Blame it on my liberal leanings. As it stands, because of the size of my group we get individually rated. Basically that means we quickly go to max billed band with any company we go with. I easily pay twice the amount a large employer does per employee. Because of this we have had to cut back on the plan and take other cost savings measures and I still bleed $$$$. I'm easily spending $150-250 a week per employee these days. The ability of a small employeer to get the same rates as larger groups will be a great savings to me and allow me to provide "better" coverage to my employees or invest more in building my business. I'm sure other businesses will have different results, but saying this is bad for small business and will kill them is an over simplification at best. IMO, this isn't a binary issue.

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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Runner View Post
Funny as a small business ower I'm looking forward to this. I firmly believe in providing quality health insurance to my employees. I've done it for over 30 years. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I do believe I have a responsibility that goes beyond maxing my personal income. Blame it on my liberal leanings. As it stands, because of the size of my group we get individually rated. Basically that means we quickly go to max billed band with any company we go with. I easily pay twice the amount a large employer does per employee. Because of this we have had to cut back on the plan and take other cost savings measures and I still bleed $$$$. I'm easily spending $150-250 a week per employee these days. The ability of a small employeer to get the same rates as larger groups will be a great savings to me and allow me to provide "better" coverage to my employees or invest more in building my business. I'm sure other businesses will have different results, but saying this is bad for small business and will kill them is an over simplification at best. IMO, this isn't a binary issue.
Good on you. It is sacrifices and ethics like this that keep good employees around and drives them to give that extra mile for the company.

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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I'm sure other businesses will have different results, but saying this is bad for small business and will kill them is an over simplification at best. IMO, this isn't a binary issue.

why would it be a programming issue?


How will it benefit the small businesses that are just barely making it now? They will have to layoff people or cut employee hours.
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Runner View Post
Funny as a small business ower I'm looking forward to this. I firmly believe in providing quality health insurance to my employees. I've done it for over 30 years. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I do believe I have a responsibility that goes beyond maxing my personal income. Blame it on my liberal leanings. As it stands, because of the size of my group we get individually rated. Basically that means we quickly go to max billed band with any company we go with. I easily pay twice the amount a large employer does per employee. Because of this we have had to cut back on the plan and take other cost savings measures and I still bleed $$$$. I'm easily spending $150-250 a week per employee these days. The ability of a small employeer to get the same rates as larger groups will be a great savings to me and allow me to provide "better" coverage to my employees or invest more in building my business. I'm sure other businesses will have different results, but saying this is bad for small business and will kill them is an over simplification at best. IMO, this isn't a binary issue.
OMG! LOL!- youre already getting better rates than many multibillion dollar companies because your experience pool is smaller. You will be paying significantly more, better budget for it now! You think youre bleeding now? Hahaha! I know because im involved in ours and we have 14,000 employees. What the gov tells you and what the reality is are two different things. You should know that. Prepare for the bleeding.

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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 03:47 PM
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Kegger, I am not questioning your company and coverage, everyone is different and each company chooses what to put in.
However I do help my GM do some heath care rate stuff, holy fuck do we take it in the ass since we only have about 50 people (even less on the plan). Even after the employer contribution which is not that great the employee pays a lot, close to $200 for single person. In comparison I have paid a 1/4 of that when I worked at my previous job that had a lot more employees. And a friend of mine who worked at PNC bank was only paying about $30 per week, they have a huge pool. Our insurance broker told us that the smaller the pool the more you get fucked. Big pools spread the risk and include a lot more healthy young people to offset the older ones.

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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 04:02 PM
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Another point that should be considered when comparing plan costs between organizations is if the company self insures their plans with the overall plan being underwritten by a BCBS or Aetna. This could be a great savings for a large company, but not achievable for smaller ones. I am not expert on this, but thought this point should be kept in mind.

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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
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Another point that should be considered when comparing plan costs between organizations is if the company self insures their plans with the overall plan being underwritten by a BCBS or Aetna. This could be a great savings for a large company, but not achievable for smaller ones. I am not expert on this, but thought this point should be kept in mind.
Huge point to keep in mind.

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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 04:08 PM
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BTW, I also know a upper VP at a large provider (The largest provider), there is no way anyone will see savings in their insurance, I guarantee it. Costs will go up for everyone.

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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Costs will go up for everyone.
for the children
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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 04:17 PM
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Blade, you are the first person I heard from, who personally felt they will see a benefit from the legislation. It is your business and you are familiar with it, so I hope you are right and you will be able to take advantage of the situation for yourself and your staff.

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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 05:13 PM
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ObamaCare, formerly known as RomneyCare in Massachusetts, has both good and bad in it.

Good: No denial of insurance due to pre-existing conditions and no more maximum lifetime benefit caps are the top two pluses that happen to apply to me.

Bad: Everyone is forced to buy health insurance or pay a penalty. That is total bullsh!t.

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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 05:55 PM
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One problem is that 30 million people are still not going to be insured.

Another...as an employer if you currently like the insurance provider you have...you are going to have to pay a cadillac tax to keep. Thus, employers are going to drop what they have and make their employees go on Obamacare because of cost.

If you have 50+ employees you have to provide insurance. This will further keep businesses from hiring to stay under that limit.

Also...it took 18 pages in the bill to define "full time employee".....it was defined as working 30 hrs. or more per week. It will be interesting if it stays in effect how many employers will drop employees to 29 hrs. per week.

Fact: Businesses have to make money to grow. Thus, if it costs more per employee....then you don't hire as much or as many employees. I don't know of any small business owner that when they make more they put 100% in their pocket...they want to reinvest in their business.

The other side....the health care will suck. If it's so good why did Congress and all of your big corporations that made big political donations get the health care exemption where they don't have to provide it or exempt from using it.

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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
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Bad: Everyone is forced to buy health insurance or pay a penalty. That is total bullsh!t.
Say bye bye to free choice

go time traveler style and go back in time, fuck his grandma, then shoot forward in time and then fuck his mom. Then return back to present state and call him a the product of two incest whores and hes your son and show video of you plowing the both members of his family. .
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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taledarkside View Post
why would it be a programming issue?


How will it benefit the small businesses that are just barely making it now? They will have to layoff people or cut employee hours.
Did you even both to read my post? Btw, my biz is down almost 50%.

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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
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OMG! LOL!- youre already getting better rates than many multibillion dollar companies because your experience pool is smaller. You will be paying significantly more, better budget for it now! You think youre bleeding now? Hahaha! I know because im involved in ours and we have 14,000 employees. What the gov tells you and what the reality is are two different things. You should know that. Prepare for the bleeding.
Wrong, they tend to run at better pool rates. I have a couple chronically sick employees that fuck my rates to hell and back. Don't forget I'm in the insurance business. I could change that if I fire a couple older workers and hire twenty somethings and save on payroll as a bonus, but that ain't happening on my watch.

There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe. Nothing remains in its original state, each day, each hour, each moment, there is change. Change is the essence of life. Embrace change as you do life. To fight change is to live in the past.
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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsd656 View Post
Another point that should be considered when comparing plan costs between organizations is if the company self insures their plans with the overall plan being underwritten by a BCBS or Aetna. This could be a great savings for a large company, but not achievable for smaller ones. I am not expert on this, but thought this point should be kept in mind.
We already put in a HSA and FSA. We are just fucked...

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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-22-2012, 03:08 PM
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does anyone really think insurance companies are going to lower there rates?

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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-24-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
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Say bye bye to free choice
--->
Quote:
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Personal accountability and freedom of choice. Both are becoming extinct in the US.

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Originally Posted by MoparBoyy View Post
does anyone really think insurance companies are going to lower there rates?
--->
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Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
BTW, I also know a upper VP at a large provider (The largest provider), there is no way anyone will see savings in their insurance, I guarantee it. Costs will go up for everyone.
Also, Blade, you happen to have a bad experience rate cause you happen to have a few exposure nightmares and a very small workforce. Statisically, the more people you cover, the higher the probability that you will inherit an exposure nightmare or multiples.

Guaranteed issue with pre existing will also shoot all of the rates through the roof. Everybody Ive ever personally known with cancer, or leukemia, including my neighbor whose wife died after a 15 year battle with it, has been able to get enough money through religious charities and fund raisers to pay the medical bills, but, they had to do some HARD WORK to make that happen.........rut roh, hard work.

The medical infrastructure cant handle the influx of patients coming at it, and it wont grow, Doctors are becoming scarcer and scarcer with mal practice insurance, etc.......This will be the biggest clusterfuck we see in our lifetimes, aside from the pending civil unrest that is brewing and could be the end of life as we know it.

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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-24-2012, 11:03 AM
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.............and this shit is getting serious, people are un-friending on Facebook because of political views!

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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-24-2012, 11:07 AM
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Sportbike: Kawi ZX-10R
Years Riding: Since February 2012
How you found us: NESBA bbs
           
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I just hide people from my news feeds. Its so relaxing to just get on FB and see posts about eating and football instead of all the political drivel so many of my friends feel the need to post.

Never a bad time to climb... unless the weather is really horrible, and then you climb inside!

I bleed GREEN
Chills is offline  
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