Battery charging question- looking at you Gus - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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Battery charging question- looking at you Gus

Long story short, I've been having an issue for the past month with a brand new battery draining within 2-3hrs of riding. Come to find out, the Stator and regulator/rectifier connectors were charred. I ended up replacing the stator(new), r/r(used), and rebuilt both connectors(new). Since the battery was in warranty, I replaced that as well just for grins. Afterwards I clipped a meter to the freshly charged battery and attached to my tankbag so I can monitor the voltage.

At 5k, the voltage averaged 14.1, cool. Kawi says it should be 14.5v +/- .5 I thought I nailed it, but about 10 minutes into the ride, the voltage at 5k dropped to and stayed at 12.4v(obviously not charging), fuuuccckk.

So this morning I double checked my connections and found a male spade on the stator connector pushed out(cheapo connector). To remedy, I cut the connector off and simply cut off the connector and soldered the stator directly to the harness. I just went for another ride, again with the meter attached. This time, much better. Voltage at 5k were a steady 14.7 for a good 2hrs. Then, all of a sudden nothing above 13.6-13.8. ????

Obviously fixing the connector did something. Before I start chasing ghosts, does anyone know if the 14.5v is a constant, or does the r/r regulate the output according to the charged state of the battery? Also, bearing in mind it was 92 today, does the ambient temp effect the output voltage? Also, before I left the battery was at 12.6v. When I got back a little over 2hrs later, the battery was still at 12.6. Any thoughts? I really dont want to be stranded again, so until I'm 100% convinced its ok, it out of commission.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 07:46 PM
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the 14.5 from everything ive dealt with on the bikes is pretty much a constant
the headlights and other electrical loads are pretty constant with the exception of the fan. the fan alone can cause a system voltage drop , did you happen to notice if the fan was on when you were at 13.6/13.8?

-Jason
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
the fan alone can cause a system voltage drop , did you happen to notice if the fan was on when you were at 13.6/13.8?
VERY good point, I never thought about the fan. Given the heat that does make alot of sense. I never really notice my fan or how long it stays on over the engine noise/exhaust. I only really hear it kick on and spin for maybe 20 seconds after I turn the bike off.

Curious, now. I wonder if my shop manual mentions how much voltage the fan pulls..
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quiet Jason, he is asking Gus.

Jason knows charging problems well. After all, he has (2) gixxers.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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Gus is the man, but advice is welcome from anyone. By the way, I thought it was Honda that has all the charging issues(chews up regulator/rectifiers?)

Anyway, no voltages listed in the manual for the fan. I have a feeling thats what the .5v variable is for though. This bike has been an awesome restore project thats taught me alot, but I'm thinking this is its last season. At times I'm wrenching more than riding, time for a modern bike.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 10:08 PM
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Gus rocks, I'm just busting Jason's chops. He is a smart cookie.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:54 AM
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Do the following...

- with battery fully charged disconnect the stator from the wire harness. Hold the revs at 5 grand. Do you have at least 50 volts AC on all three combos? Should be higher than that actually. Maybe close to 80 volts AC.

- if the stator / flywheel is working properly move on to checking the DC charge. Basically the regulator rectifier turns the AC to DC to charge the battery. At 5 grand you should have constant 14.5 volts DC.

Double check all your connectors and solder joints.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
- with battery fully charged disconnect the stator from the wire harness. Hold the revs at 5 grand. Do you have at least 50 volts AC on all three combos? Should be higher than that actually. Maybe close to 80 volts AC.
No can do, Nick. I already hardwired the stator to the harness. Regardless though, it would have checked out fine. With the battery as is, at idle, I level out at 13v. At 5k I'm at a healthy 14.6v, well within spec. Whatever it is, it seems to be some sort of thermal issue, and it takes approx 1hr on the road to fail.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 01:32 PM

 
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the resistance through the wires is a big issue.IGS (icky green stuff)

Once the battery has taken several beatings it may never fully recover.

over 50 V ac is key to checking stator output.

Any resistance through the starting system from the button to the selinoid will cause a loss in voltage at the battery.Check that with a wiggle while shes running.

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
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buying a used R/R may not be wise, the older the bike the more likely the R/R is tired, or abused, by charging battery in bike or running a dead battery
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
the resistance through the wires is a big issue.IGS (icky green stuff)

Once the battery has taken several beatings it may never fully recover.

over 50 V ac is key to checking stator output.

Any resistance through the starting system from the button to the selinoid will cause a loss in voltage at the battery.Check that with a wiggle while shes running.
There he is! I hear you about the resistance. I've gone over pretty much every connector on the harness, inspected and applied dielectric grease. The battery was only used once(yesterday), so I'm thinking its still in good shape. The stator is brand new(Rickystator.com), nontheless, I cant check the output since I already hardwired it to the harness. I will try this wiggle test here in a few.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by elroy121 View Post
buying a used R/R may not be wise, the older the bike the more likely the R/R is tired, or abused, by charging battery in bike or running a dead battery
I couldnt agree more in hindsight. The used R/R is now the wildcard in all this. From what I understand, the tests you can do on the R/R are pretty inconclusive. They can test good, but still be bad. Given that, I didnt really see the point in testing. So at this point, I'm down to eliminating. In my mind,

1. the harness- corrosion/connection exacerbated by heat

2. the fan/fan switch- maybe normal to have a voltage drop when the fan kicks on, and runs for awhile on especially hot days

3. Solid state- CDI or R/R failure exaserbated by heat

The kicker is that everything operates properly benchtesting.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:47 PM
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when the RR friend on my 600 at the beginning of the summer I replaced it with one from an 07 600rr, for one reason only

the older type RRs are silicon (resistance) they convert the extra power to heat to get rid of it, hence why the get hot, have fins and need air
the 600rr reg I bought is a FET type (switching) so rather than generating heat to get rid of extra power not needed to charge the battery power lights etc, it simply switches it off. regulating the power to the bike this way is more reliable and less prone to failure, especially since there are no moving parts actually switching on and off its all done in solid state.



as for how much voltage the fan uses.. it uses the full voltage of what it applied to it. the amperage it draws when on and loading the system is what brings the voltage down,


"""hypothetical situation ::::
so if the RR puts out say 15 amps
your lights all combined draw 9.5amps
battery charging takes .5 amps
ignition/ fuel draws 2 amps
and the fan draws 2 amps then the voltage drop should be very minimal maybe .1 or .2 since you are not using up the whole supply(14/15), the extra on the silicon RR gets dissipated to heat

if say the fan draws 5 amps with all the others the same
you're now using up 17 amps of the available 15 from the RR
the additional power has to come from the battery(totally normal thing that's what its for)
now you'll see a voltage drop on the system now seeing is drop.5 or maybe even a whole volt would be expected.


hope this makes sense

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Wiggled the hell out of it while running, no change. I let it run long enough for the fan kick on, the voltage dropped for a sec or two and quickly raised back to spec. Seeing as how this isn't a hard failure, I'm ruling out the flywheel/rotor. R/R or harness I guess.

Quote:
hope this makes sense
Makes alot of sense, thanks. The electricals/charging is the only thing I didnt have to delve into while restoring, so unfortunately I'm now learning all this on the fly.

Last edited by singram; 08-24-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 03:41 PM

 
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You can while riding check volts and wait for said drop.after it drops

Stop and take out the head light fuse.Fixed voltage?

try again next fuse and so on.
Of course taking out the main might not work. LOL

you may find the line that's causing trouble.

Good luck

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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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this might help

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrock View Post
Bench testing shows everything within spec. I found that flowchart a few weeks ago. Right out of the gate it said my charging circuitry was good. It fails on the road, not in my garage unfortunately.

Quote:
You can while riding check volts and wait for said drop.after it drops

Stop and take out the head light fuse.Fixed voltage?

try again next fuse and so on.
Of course taking out the main might not work. LOL

you may find the line that's causing trouble.

Good luck
Not a bad idea. I got a test of my own first. I'm mounting a computer case fan to the RR just out of curiosity. Everything might be OK for all I know, I mean who else rides around with a meter attached to see if the battery is 1.5v off? I know what the manual says, but does charging take place at exactly 14.5v on the nose?
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 06:56 PM
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a fully charged 12v lead acid type battery is considered full at 12.6v, the systems run at 13.6-14.5 or so to leave headroom for volrage drop across switches relays connectors and even wiring as well as amperage draw induced drops.

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 08:11 PM

 
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What's different on the road than on the bench??

a low volt drain of sorts through some thing or wire resistance .
the first will show this through the fuse test.
the resistance that's a little tougher.but the fuse test will also show small increase in volts which might be the resistance.

finding these things through a key board is tuff.
My help is limited though the key board.

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 09:28 PM
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R/R might be getting hot and then failing. It will eventually fail all together if this is the case.

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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-24-2012, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
R/R might be getting hot and then failing.
I'm starting to agree with you here, Nick. I will try Gus's fuse test nonetheless and post results. Happy Friday!!
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