True Amatuers Racing - Chicagoland Sportbikes
Chicagoland Sportbikes
 
Open Forum This forum is for all off-topic discussion.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
MOTOVD PJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Roathschild WI
Posts: 25
Location: Roathschild WI
Sportbike: 2wheeler
Years Riding: 36yrs
How you found us: Mike Casey
 
True Amatuers Racing

When I started racing, there were NO track days, it was completely unheard of. I showed up and took a riders school (LCR) and was thrown on a grid. Very much throwing you to the wolves so to speak. There were racers on the track, including myself, who would struggle in todays novice group on a track day. My first race a guy rammed me in turn six with plenty of room to pass as I fell and was sliding on my crappy 2 pc leather suit I was instantly challenged to get faster and better. It took about 5 race weekends and many more guys giving me bad and good info to get rolling at just a safe enough speed that I was not in the way. That would be where I probably would have been considered an I-group rider. And after having made friends with a very seasoned veteran rider who will all know but I refuse to mention, I was winning races in 99'. So then as current riders see, this makes me an Advanced rider at todays level.
Heres my whole point. With the way racers come out of 4-6 yrs of NESBA and now MOTO VID with that much time on track, thats why I probably would have never raced today. There are no TRUE amatuers left. We have guys who are CONTROL RIDING at the track days who go race with a yellow plate. I guess their now considered amatuers??? Dont get me wrong, this has happend nation wide. These riders would have been competitive Experts only a few years ago. I'm very curious to hear your imput on others perspective on this. I guess fortunately I wasn't effected by this as when I started we started at the same time and everyone was new to it. Once in awhile you had an old racers quit and come back but they usually went expert and didnt sand bag. There used to be money in amatuer racing, there isnt hardly any money to win now so it makes it more confusing.

do you want some bullsh*t or the truth...

Last edited by MOTOVD PJ; 06-14-2010 at 01:24 PM.
MOTOVD PJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 01:30 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
I think track days are great. Why not hone your skills in a "non competitive" environment first? It makes it safer for everyone. I started racing with no prior experience in 1989 and it was fucking scary at best and I wish there were trackdays when I started. I also don't think there is anything wrong with seasoned track days riders coming in as amateurs. Just because you practiced alot before you decided to race shouldn't exclude you from racing as an amateur especially since track days are available to anyone who wants to participate in it.

<---- Useless Mufugga

Last edited by Chunk; 06-14-2010 at 01:33 PM.
Chunk is offline  
post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 01:57 PM
Midnight Rider
 
PatFitz9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North side
Posts: 3,885
Location: North side
Sportbike: R6 and a Z1000
Years Riding: for a bit
How you found us: random PM on sportbikes.net
           
Amateur technically means little to no racing experience. They are amateurs, they just have a higher skill level than before. Just because their pace if fast doesn't mean they are skilled racers.

Take snowboarding for example... 10-15 years ago, a 540 in the halfpipe would have won gold hands down. Now 15 year old kids at Wilmot are pulling backflips. Progression is a beautiful thing.

Fat Pat #728

If you don't like my fire, then don't come around...
PatFitz9 is offline  
post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:07 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
Does "amateur" refer to the racer's pace?

Or does "amateur" refer to the racer's riding skills?

Or does "amateur" refer to the racer's RACE EXPERIENCE?

According to CCS, it refers to the racer's race experience. But, I agree with the root of what you are saying PJ.

After doing many trackdays and becoming a NESBA CR, I went racing. CCS would only let me race as an amateur, since I had no RACE experience.

I won my first amateur race at the beginning of the season on a Friday at HPT by a very large margin. Rather than being proud of myself, I felt like a douche bag.

Why did I feel like a douche? Because I knew in my heart that for me to keep running as an amateur would have been nothing but a big "EGO STROKE". Did it feel good to slaughter the grid? Hell yeah! Was it right? It sure didn't feel right to me.

The next day, on Saturday, I approached the CCS officials about it and explained how I felt. They listened and very hesitantly bumped me to expert. BUT, they told me they would be watching me closely.

My first expert races were difficult and I completed the races with mediocre finishes. I took my beatings, I paid close attention to my weaknesses and I learned a bunch from the guys who were beating me. I went on to win 4 EXPERT championships that same year. For me, it was obviously the right decision.

Others have made different decision than the one I made. Each have their own reasons, and I am not judging or condemning them in any way. Let each man be beholding to his own conscious.

I am interesting in hearing their perspectives on this however.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975

Last edited by ronhix; 06-14-2010 at 02:18 PM.
ronhix is offline  
post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:11 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
It's much more rewarding to whoop ass as an expert huh Ron? hahahaa

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
It's much more rewarding to whoop ass as an expert huh Ron? hahahaa
I don't know, you'll have to ask Brian Hall and Jason Ferrell.

On that same note, when is an expert "sand bagging"?

Let's suppose you got the skills to run top 5 AMA, but you choose to be a "Big Fish" in the little expert club racing pond.

Is that really any different that being a sand bagging amateur?

I spent last weekend with Robert Jensen at Putnam and some would say that he is a sand bagger. Personally, it certainly hurt my race budget when he came swooping in and took all the manufacturer contingency money in the few rounds that there was any contingency to be had! But, I know exactly why he chose the route he chose, because he could make good coin doing it. Do I blame him? No way!

But I'm not sure it is the same for some others.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975

Last edited by ronhix; 06-14-2010 at 02:30 PM.
ronhix is offline  
post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:27 PM
DONATING MEMBER
 
Chicago Performance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Posts: 25,074
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Sportbike: Trackdayz "I" bike!
Years Riding: since last year
How you found us: In a fortune cookie
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post

On that same note, when is an expert "sand bagging"?
When their skill, experience, and equipment are well known for being superior to that of their competition, and they have a very strong chance of winning by a large margin.

------->> Best motorcycle shop ever!

http://www.chicagoperformance.com/
Chicago Performance is offline  
post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:30 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
I don't know, you'll have to ask Brian Hall and Jason Ferrell.

On that same note, when is an expert "sand bagging"?

Let's suppose you got the skills to run top 5 AMA, but you choose to be a "Big Fish" in the little expert club racing pond.

Is that any different that being a sand bagging amateur?

I spent a bunch of time with Robert Jensen at Putnam last weekend, so would say that he is a sand bagger. I know exactly why he chose the route he chose, because he could make good coin chases contingency. But I'm not sure it is the same for some others.
when there is money involved all is fair. Besides, Robbie was a professional contingency chaser so he went wherever there was money to be made. Larry Denning did the same but both have since retired from racing.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Performance View Post
When their skill, experience, and equipment are well known for being superior to that of their competition, and they have a very strong chance of winning by a large margin.
Bingo.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975
ronhix is offline  
post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:35 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Performance View Post
When their skill, experience, and equipment are well known for being superior to that of their competition, and they have a very strong chance of winning by a large margin.
yeah but is that still sand bagging? Once you slap on the white plates, all is fair no?

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
yeah but is that still sand bagging? Once you slap on the white plates, all is fair no?
No. There is no money in racing CCS, Expert or Amateur.

If you are destroying the entire CCS field all the time and there is no money in it, why keep doing it. Why not move up to the national level and race with competitors of similar skill levels? To me, racing is not racing if it is a blow out all the time.

And yes, I think Mladin should have moved on to the world level.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975

Last edited by ronhix; 06-14-2010 at 02:41 PM.
ronhix is offline  
post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:41 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
No. There is no money in racing CCS, Expert or Amateur.

If you are destroying the entire field all the time and there is no money in it, why keep doing it. Why not move up to the national level?
did the manufacturers do away with contingency at the club level? I can see doing a national when it comes to your region but most racers don't have the funds to do an entire AMA season or wait around not racing until a national comes near them.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
The way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large fortune.

No money at the club level.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975
ronhix is offline  
post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:44 PM
G2G
Registered User
 
G2G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 14,287
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: It changes everyday
Years Riding: since 1991
How you found us: Ur mom
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
The way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large fortune.

No money at the club level.
That is how Denning and Jensen made a living for 10 + years though racing a national paying Club races. They seem to do just fine. Why go tthe the AMA level amd loose money to the factory guys???
G2G is offline  
post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
MOTOVD PJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Roathschild WI
Posts: 25
Location: Roathschild WI
Sportbike: 2wheeler
Years Riding: 36yrs
How you found us: Mike Casey
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
I don't know, you'll have to ask Brian Hall and Jason Ferrell.

On that same note, when is an expert "sand bagging"?

Let's suppose you got the skills to run top 5 AMA, but you choose to be a "Big Fish" in the little expert club racing pond.

Is that really any different that being a sand bagging amateur?

I spent last weekend with Robert Jensen at Putnam and some would say that he is a sand bagger. Personally, it certainly hurt my race budget when he came swooping in and took all the manufacturer contingency money in the few rounds that there was any contingency to be had! But, I know exactly why he chose the route he chose, because he could make good coin doing it. Do I blame him? No way!


But I'm not sure it is the same for some others.

The only racers who would call Rob Jensen a sand bagger...the ones who's money he won. He did what any intelligent person who may have a shit load of skill would have loved to do. WIN MONEY, a lot of MONEY!
Rob was offered many rides with many high profile teams, he was never offered to make the money he knew he could make chasing contingency money. Sand bagging?? Hell no, making a good living with an ass load of hard work. With a factory team Rob didnt have to build his own bikes, with a team he didnt have find his own mechanics he knew were good, with a factory he didnt have to drive 27 WEEKS A YEAR!!
I was starting this thread to say exactly what Ron so easily made the point of with out even trying. Do we race as amatuers and clobber a field for our own ego stroking or is it for something else. In the area we all are we have limited options as far as expert level when you ride at Jason, Brian, Tom, or Dan's level. We only have what's here, cause their fast doesn't obligate them to run an ama season (besides, how corrupt are there fields!). So heres your fast people, beat them.

do you want some bullsh*t or the truth...
MOTOVD PJ is offline  
post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
so are the manufacturers still paying contingency or not? I've been out of the loop for a few years so I have no idea.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
MOTOVD PJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Roathschild WI
Posts: 25
Location: Roathschild WI
Sportbike: 2wheeler
Years Riding: 36yrs
How you found us: Mike Casey
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
No. There is no money in racing CCS, Expert or Amateur.

If you are destroying the entire CCS field all the time and there is no money in it, why keep doing it. Why not move up to the national level and race with competitors of similar skill levels? To me, racing is not racing if it is a blow out all the time.

And yes, I think Mladin should have moved on to the world level.
he was, he came here then, he had very little success in the GP's

do you want some bullsh*t or the truth...
MOTOVD PJ is offline  
post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:51 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTOVD PJ View Post
The only racers who would call Rob Jensen a sand bagger...the ones who's money he won. He did what any intelligent person who may have a shit load of skill would have loved to do. WIN MONEY, a lot of MONEY!
Rob was offered many rides with many high profile teams, he was never offered to make the money he knew he could make chasing contingency money. Sand bagging?? Hell no, making a good living with an ass load of hard work. With a factory team Rob didnt have to build his own bikes, with a team he didnt have find his own mechanics he knew were good, with a factory he didnt have to drive 27 WEEKS A YEAR!!
I was starting this thread to say exactly what Ron so easily made the point of with out even trying. Do we race as amatuers and clobber a field for our own ego stroking or is it for something else. In the area we all are we have limited options as far as expert level when you ride at Jason, Brian, Tom, or Dan's level. We only have what's here, cause their fast doesn't obligate them to run an ama season (besides, how corrupt are there fields!). So heres your fast people, beat them.

It this PJ Thornton? If it is bro I remember you in the rain at BHF on the 125. You fucking checked out and then crashed and picked the bike up still went all out with a pipe dangling off the side of the bike. You were my hero that day

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:55 PM
DONATING MEMBER
 
Chicago Performance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Posts: 25,074
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Sportbike: Trackdayz "I" bike!
Years Riding: since last year
How you found us: In a fortune cookie
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
yeah but is that still sand bagging? Once you slap on the white plates, all is fair no?

To me, it depends. If you are a Factory supported or sponsored rider, you should race at the Nationals. I had 3 Yosh riders at a regional Daytona race in the expert field way back when take contingency money from me as well as a win, which I considered sandbagging, and for no reason at all. If you are just a fast local rider on your own coin and wanting to win all the money you can, that's different. Nowhere to go unless you want to spend BIG money doing Nationals, and not everybody can do that. So it depends.

------->> Best motorcycle shop ever!

http://www.chicagoperformance.com/
Chicago Performance is offline  
post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:58 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Performance View Post
To me, it depends. If you are a Factory supported or sponsored rider, you should race at the Nationals. I had 3 Yosh riders at a regional Daytona race in the expert field way back when take contingency money from me as well as a win, which I considered sandbagging, and for no reason at all. If you are just a fast local rider on your own coin and wanting to win all the money you can, that's different. Nowhere to go unless you want to spend BIG money doing Nationals, and not everybody can do that. So it depends.
factory supported/sponsored riders are a different story. That's just bad etiquette for factory riders to do that shit but we're talking about guys like Robbie and Larry who are infact no different than you were back then.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 02:59 PM
G2G
Registered User
 
G2G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 14,287
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: It changes everyday
Years Riding: since 1991
How you found us: Ur mom
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
It this PJ Thornton? If it is bro I remember you in the rain at BHF on the 125. You fucking checked out and then crashed and picked the bike up still went all out with a pipe dangling off the side of the bike. You were my hero that day
Yep thats him
G2G is offline  
post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:00 PM
DONATING MEMBER
 
Chicago Performance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Posts: 25,074
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Sportbike: Trackdayz "I" bike!
Years Riding: since last year
How you found us: In a fortune cookie
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
factory supported/sponsored riders are a different story. That's just bad etiquette for factory riders to do that shit but we're talking about guys like Robbie and Larry who are infact no different than you were back then.
I would have to say they don't win by a large margin or have extraordinary equipment, so no they are not sandbagging IMO. They're just fast.

------->> Best motorcycle shop ever!

http://www.chicagoperformance.com/
Chicago Performance is offline  
post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Registered User
 
iamnotgreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,529
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: 2003 Aprilia Mille R Colin Edwards / 01-02 Ninj ZX6r Tracktoy / 2003 SV650
Years Riding: 12
How you found us: some guy at the IBM credit union told me about it
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Performance View Post
To me, it depends. If you are a Factory supported or sponsored rider, you should race at the Nationals. I had 3 Yosh riders at a regional Daytona race in the expert field way back when take contingency money from me as well as a win, which I considered sandbagging, and for no reason at all. If you are just a fast local rider on your own coin and wanting to win all the money you can, that's different. Nowhere to go unless you want to spend BIG money doing Nationals, and not everybody can do that. So it depends.
Something like this?
Class act from Mr Hopkins
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=39569
6th paragraph down - can't quote it due to RRW rules
iamnotgreg is offline  
post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:06 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Performance View Post
I would have to say they don't win by a large margin or have extraordinary equipment, so no they are not sandbagging IMO. They're just fast.
so did you have any extraordinary equipment?

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:07 PM
DONATING MEMBER
 
Chicago Performance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Posts: 25,074
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Sportbike: Trackdayz "I" bike!
Years Riding: since last year
How you found us: In a fortune cookie
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotgreg View Post
Something like this?
Class act from Mr Hopkins
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=39569
6th paragraph down - can't quote it due to RRW rules
Yep, exactly that.

------->> Best motorcycle shop ever!

http://www.chicagoperformance.com/
Chicago Performance is offline  
post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm a blessed man
 
ronhix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 3,707
Location: Aurora, IL
Sportbike: GSXR 1000
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Sportbikes.net
           
Easy fellas, I spent all weekend with Jensen and I like the guy. I'm not baggin on him at all.

I would probably choose the same path Robert Jensen or Larry Denning chose if I had the pace to make a living at it. BUT, they ran at the NATIONAL level chasing manufacturer contingency money ALL OVER THE COUNTRY against other head hunters who offered some very stiff competition at times. I do not think they are "sand baggers", I said "some would say they are a sand baggers".

BUT, If Jensen chose to just run a full CCS midwest season and stomped the entire expert field every weekend when there is no money in running a full CCS midwest season, then that would be a little different would it not?

How about Mr. Super Street Squid who signs up for the track day advanced group and is obviously way off the pace? Or how about the guy who can't stand being called a "Beginner" so he choose a trackday org that will let him signup for any group he wants?

Seriously, my point is that there is a real tendency among some to shy away from true competition and instead go for the easy ego stroke.

The bottom line is that it doesn't just happen at the CCS amateur level.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975

Last edited by ronhix; 06-14-2010 at 05:49 PM.
ronhix is offline  
post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-14-2010, 03:08 PM
DONATING MEMBER
 
Chicago Performance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Posts: 25,074
Location: Northlake, IL 60164
Sportbike: Trackdayz "I" bike!
Years Riding: since last year
How you found us: In a fortune cookie
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
so did you have any extraordinary equipment?
Not that affected my motorcycle's performance.

------->> Best motorcycle shop ever!

http://www.chicagoperformance.com/
Chicago Performance is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chicagoland Sportbikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome