So you think you know about tires. Well put this feather in ur hat - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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So you think you know about tires. Well put this feather in ur hat

Very cool info to know about tire temp.


http://www.msportsystems.com/?page_id=93
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-15-2010, 11:58 PM
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I wonder if traction control sensitivity is directly linked to tire temps in MotoGP.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 12:02 AM
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Holy cow that's cool info

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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 12:49 AM
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i already knew all of that.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 12:59 AM
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 02:45 AM
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That's pretty cool.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 04:48 AM
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you do realize that this system is for a car, not a bike, right?

the sensor swould be more meaningful when reading across a flat race tire, and tellls you a whole lot about suspension set up.

Dont think it would be as meaningful on a bike.

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripod View Post
you do realize that this system is for a car, not a bike, right?

the sensor swould be more meaningful when reading across a flat race tire, and tellls you a whole lot about suspension set up.

Dont think it would be as meaningful on a bike.
According to the article, they used a bike with PP 2CT tires. And it seemed to have good information for bikes.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 05:52 AM
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Been used in AMA and motogp for years, just now being made affordable for the public.

Germany, keep away you do not need and neither do any of us posting in this thread. Work on riding, not play with more electronic gizmos

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suh-c View Post
I wonder if traction control sensitivity is directly linked to tire temps in MotoGP.
ask rossi

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSMAIL View Post
Been used in AMA and motogp for years, just now being made affordable for the public.

Germany, keep away you do not need and neither do any of us posting in this thread. Work on riding, not play with more electronic gizmos
but but but I waaaaaant oneeeeeee

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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripod View Post
you do realize that this system is for a car, not a bike, right?

the sensor swould be more meaningful when reading across a flat race tire, and tellls you a whole lot about suspension set up.

Dont think it would be as meaningful on a bike.

Did you read the article????


Tire: Michelin Pilot Power 2CT street tires
Hot Pressures: 30R / 31F
Ambient Air Temperature: ~70F
Cold Temp: set to <120F
Warm Temp: set to >120F
Hot Temp: set to >170F

Tire temperatures at start of session (no load)
LF: 80F
RF: 80F
LR: 85F
RR: 85F

Tire temperatures at end of session (no load)
LF: 102 gain of 22F
RF: 111 gain of 31F
LR: 124 gain of 39F
RR: 149 gain of 64F

Note: This bike had traction control, which limited rear wheel spin up on corner exits. Without TC, the tire temps on the exits of corners would have been much higher. The IR sensors are measuring the outside 2″ on each side of the front and rear tires.

Average Tire Temperatures: Notice that the average right side temps are about 20F warmer than the left. This is to be expected as this is primarily a right turn track. Also, notice that the average rear tire temp is almost 30F higher than the front. It would be good to work on getting more temperature into the front tire. This could be done with front to rear weight bias and/or front tire pressure.

Turn 1
Turn 1 is a right hand turn at the end of the back straight after very heavy braking. As soon as turn 1 is entered to the right, an immediate temperature rise in both the right front and right rear tires is visible.
Front Tire: The right front temperature begins at 105F and gains 15F within the first 2 seconds. It then gradually gains another 10F ending at 130F as turn 2 is approached. Notice the left front tire temp is uneffected.
Rear Tire: The right rear temperature begins at 135F and gains 25F within the first 3 seconds. During the remainder of the turn the temperature increases 5F.

Turn 2
Turn 2 is the end of the double apex T1. Light and constant throttle application.
Front Tire: Front right side tire temps continue to slowly increase a few degrees through turn 2. Notice that as the bike is picked up off of the edge of the tire and as a turn 3 approaches, the tire begins to cool. Without the load on the tire it cools 5F in less than 2 seconds.
Rear Tire: The right rear is under a constant light throttle load through turn 2 and the temps reflect this as they do not change. As the bike heads towards turn 3, throttle is applied in the short straight section. The resulting right rear tire temperature increases by almost 5F for this short additional load on the tire.

Turn 3
Turn 3 is one of only two left turns on this track. It can catch riders on cold tires as the left sides take a while to warm up due to limited use.
Front Tire: The left side of the front tire immediately builds temperature upon turn in, beginning at 100F and increasing to 119F through the turn. The right side of the front tire is loosing temperature, dropping from a high of 131F before T3, down to 114F before entering T4 all within 10 seconds. The hottest left front tire temps occur in T3, and these are not very high. Notice that the time taken to reach 115F by the front left was 5 minutes 45 seconds which is at least 4 laps. Its easy to see why there are a lot of incidents in T3 at this track as there isnt much time spent on the left side of the tire to build heat.
Rear Tire: The left side temps of the rear tire increase immediately on turn in beginning at 120F and increasing to 153F. The left side of the rear tire becomes the hottest in T3, and a max temp of 164F was recorded in this session. The large increase in tire temperature is due to extreme lean angle and very healthy throttle application leading onto the short straight between T3 and T4. The right side of the rear tire loses temperature in this section dropping from 164F to 150F.

Turn 4
Turn 4 is the slowest corner at this track. It requires heavy breaking and exits on the back straight.
Front Tire: The front right side tire temp increases from 114F to 125F through this corner within 3 seconds.
Rear Tire: The rear right side tire temp increases from 149F to 184F within 4 seconds. This spike in tire temperature comes from hard acceleration while picking up the bike off the right side coming out of T4.

Turn 5
Turn 5 is a quick left kink before heading out on the back straight.
Front Tire: The small jump in left front tire temp can be seen as it rises from 108F to 112F as the bike is turned in to this corner. There is not much lean angle required for this corner, but the front tire temperature is still noticeably low.
Rear Tire: The right rear is under hard acceleration through this corner and the temps rise from 135F to 142F.

Turn 6
Turn 6 is a high speed right hand turn which leads onto the back straightaway. There is hard acceleration through this turn and the bike is leaned onto the right side of the tire for quite some time.
Front Tire: The front right side of the tire begins building heat through T6 starting at 114F and peaking at 125F. The left side of the tire looses about 12 degrees through this section.
Rear Tire: The rear right side of the tire sees its highest temperature in T6. The temps begin at 154F on corner entry and build to 199F before the bike is stood up straight. The rear wheel spin is being limited by TC, but it is still sliding some through this corner leading to the higher temperatures.

Turn 7
Turn 7 is at the end of the back straightaway and is a higher speed left hand turn after hard braking.
Front: The left front has cooled to 103F and quickly rises to 116F within 2 seconds upon entering this corner.
Rear: The left rear begins building temperature right after the front as lean angle and acceleration occur. Temps start at 119F and build to 133F.

Turn 8
Turn 8 is a right hand corner leading into the second slowest corner on the track.
Front: The right front begins the corner at 115F and rises to 128F. It loses a couple of degrees of heat as the bike is upright for a moment before turning into T9.
Rear: The right rear temp begins the corner at 159F and rises to 169F. There is only light throttle application.

Turn 9
Turn 9 is the last corner on the track and leads onto the front straight.
Front: The right front is already heated from T8, and rises from 123F to 128F.
Rear: The right rear temp begins at 165F and only builds to 173F. A bit surprised that there isnt significantly more heat built in this corner, but perhaps the TC is keeping things in check as there is alot of lean angle. The rear is spinning when the bike is more upright but the sensor is reading the edge of the tire. Notice how much temperature is lost down the front straightaway. In about 17 seconds the right rear loses 42F.

Key Learnings
* Must get more front tire temperature. Add front weight bias and/or lower tire pressure
* Be careful on the front tire through T3 as it doesnt build heat until lap 3-4.
* Be careful on the rear tire through T6 there is some overheating due to the rear spinning. This was not obvious until seeing the data
* Could further reduce TC settings and be more generous with throttle exits, being cautious through T6.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 08:44 AM
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interesting find steve

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRobbins View Post
I want one.
+1, thanks for the info Steve!

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSMAIL View Post
... neither do any of us posting in this thread...
I disagree my man, this is exactly what my team and I need.

A poor choice on rear tire pressure in the American Superbike race 2 made a HUUUUUGE difference in my lap times toward the end of race 2. The lack of data on how the tire would react to differing track temps made it impossible for us to make the right decision, we just simply did not know until after the fact. This is part of the data that the factory teams have that help them.

I would even propose that anyone interested in getting the most out of their tires when riding on the track could benefit from this tool. If you know the designed operating temp range of the tire, then you will know exactly what to do with pressures to get it there if you have this data. Pretty easy to tell if something is a hot tear or cold tear if you can see the exact tire temps.

I want it.

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 10:19 AM
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I thought of you Ron as soon as I read this. Ron is going to have a new toy soon!

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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 10:24 AM
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Awesome tool, and right on the money Ron!

Great find Steve. I would bet that it would pay for itself in tire wear relatively quickly, as well as provide that added edge on lap times as Ron pointed out.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
I disagree my man, this is exactly what my team and I need.

A poor choice on rear tire pressure in the American Superbike race 2 made a HUUUUUGE difference in my lap times toward the end of race 2. The lack of data on how the tire would react to differing track temps made it impossible for us to make the right decision, we just simply did not know until after the fact. This is part of the data that the factory teams have that help them.

I would even propose that anyone interested in getting the most out of their tires when riding on the track could benefit from this tool. If you know the designed operating temp range of the tire, then you will know exactly what to do with pressures to get it there if you have this data. Pretty easy to tell if something is a hot tear or cold tear if you can see the exact tire temps.

I want it.
Ron you are correct that you would be one of the few on this BBS

I could see how it could be useful info but you still have a chance of picking the wrong tire unless conditions are steady throughout the day (morning practice to race time).

Jon
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSMAIL View Post
Ron you are correct that you would be one of the few on this BBS

I could see how it could be useful info but you still have a chance of picking the wrong tire unless conditions are steady throughout the day (morning practice to race time).
Dunlop helps us pick the right tire compound, so that is not normally such a problem. But changing tire pressures to match the changing conditions of the day is much more difficult. This is something the factory teams really excel at because they have so much good data from each track.

That is where track time with personal testing, data gathering, experience and building a knowledge base comes into play. Without a tool like this to help gather objective data for you, it is very difficult and error prone to build a knowledge base of what works and doesn't work with the various track temps and conditions at the various tracks.

But once you have a solid knowledge base to refer to, then you can make better decision about tire pressures going into a race. Plus, just working to build that knowledge base teaches you SO, SO much about the tires. Even with a tire pyrometer, it is difficult to get accurate tire temp data since slowing down even a little bit on your "cool down" lap will drastically change your tire temps.

Ron Hix
MTD CR #975

Last edited by ronhix; 06-16-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-16-2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSMAIL View Post
Germany, keep away you do not need and neither do any of us posting in this thread. Work on riding, not play with more electronic gizmos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotx1 View Post
but but but I waaaaaant oneeeeeee

#19
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2010, 05:58 AM
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Wow, neat tool,
In the picture they show it mounted on the chain side of the tire.
How does it get the temps on the other side of the tire?

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2010, 06:20 AM
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Great...
Something else I can't afford...
Even if I did break the piggy bank open, I wouldn't have the time to analyze the data.

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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2010, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohfugit View Post
Wow, neat tool,
In the picture they show it mounted on the chain side of the tire.
How does it get the temps on the other side of the tire?
multiple sensors

-Jason
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-17-2010, 07:05 PM
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I heard there were a few questions on this forum about the Tyrometer. Hope it's ok with your mods to answer questions here.

Addressing some of the questions posed in this thread:

Bike vs Car application
Measuring tire temps is extremely useful for each application but for very different reasons.

How are temperatures obtained? Current system accepts up to 4 infrared sensors. These can be placed anywhere desired. For motorcycles this is usually on each side of the front and rear tires. However, you could measure other areas of the tires, or even the brakes for that matter.

Note that the lights on the Tyrometer are programmable to visually indicate tire temperature status in real time. This gives instant feedback to the rider regarding when each side of the tires come up to temp, if there is a cold/hot tear condition occuring, etc.

I appreciate the interest and welcome all suggestions and feedback to help us continue to evolve this new track tuning tool.

Rick Brockman
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-18-2010, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for Posting up Rick. I saw this info on the WERA race forums and thought it was a very interesting tool.
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