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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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repeal of healthcare reform law?

bottom line is arguing that it is unconstitutional to mandate healthcare for everyone - that everyone has a constitutional right to choose:

The health care law suffered its first major legal setback Monday when a federal judge declared that the heart of the sweeping legislation is unconstitutional. The decision handed Republican foes ammunition for their repeal effort next year.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson, a Republican appointee in Richmond, Va., marked the first successful court challenge to any portion of the new law, following two earlier rulings in its favor by Democratic-appointed judges. A number of other lawsuits were dismissed early on, without rulings on the substance of the law.

The law's central requirement for nearly all Americans to carry insurance is unconstitutional, well beyond Congress' power to mandate, Hudson ruled. That put him in the same camp as Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli the Republican who filed the suit and many of the GOP lawmakers who will take control of the U.S. House in January.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul


Long legal fight ahead for health law



AP
2 hrs 49 mins ago
WASHINGTON The scorecard on the legal fight over President Barack Obama's health care overhaul is two judges in favor and one against.

But these are the early rounds in preliminary bouts. The one that really counts a showdown at the Supreme Court is at least a year away.

The health care law suffered its first major legal setback Monday when a federal judge declared that the heart of the sweeping legislation is unconstitutional. The decision handed Republican foes ammunition for their repeal effort next year.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson, a Republican appointee in Richmond, Va., marked the first successful court challenge to any portion of the new law, following two earlier rulings in its favor by Democratic-appointed judges. A number of other lawsuits were dismissed early on, without rulings on the substance of the law.

The law's central requirement for nearly all Americans to carry insurance is unconstitutional, well beyond Congress' power to mandate, Hudson ruled. That put him in the same camp as Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli the Republican who filed the suit and many of the GOP lawmakers who will take control of the U.S. House in January.

But Hudson denied Virginia's request to strike down the law in its entirety or block it from being implemented while his ruling is appealed by the Obama administration.

"An individual's personal decision to purchase or decline to purchase health insurance from a private provider is beyond the historical reach of the Commerce Clause," said Hudson, a 2002 appointee of President George W. Bush.

Another judge in Florida, a GOP appointee, has not ruled in another lawsuit brought by 20 states against the legislation though he has signaled trouble for the administration. Arguments in that lawsuit, which also challenges whether the federal government can require states to expand their Medicaid programs, get under way Thursday in Florida.

Nevertheless, the White House predicted it would prevail in the Supreme Court.

"Keep in mind this is one ruling by one federal district court. We've already had two federal district courts that have ruled that this is definitely constitutional," President Barack Obama said Monday in an interview with television station WFLA in Tampa, Fla.

"You've got one judge who disagreed. That's the nature of these things."

Federal appeals courts based in Atlanta, Cincinnati and Richmond make up the next set of judges who will have their say on the law, though their rulings are at least months away.

Once appellate judges have weighed in, the next appeal is to the Supreme Court.

In April, Justice Stephen Breyer predicted an eventual high court hearing for the health care overhaul. That might not happen until after the 2012 elections, though.

In the short term, the latest court ruling hands potent ammunition to GOP opponents as they prepare to assert control in the new Congress with promises to repeal the law. Obama in turn has vowed to veto any repeal legislation and appears likely to prevail since Democrats retain control of the Senate. Republicans also have discussed trying to starve the law of funding.

Whatever the eventual outcome, Monday's ruling could create uncertainty around the administration's efforts to gradually put into effect the landmark legislation extending health coverage to more than 30 million uninsured Americans. And it can only increase the public's skepticism, which has not significantly receded in the months since the law's enactment, defying Obama's prediction that it would become more popular as Americans got to know it.

Obama aides said implementation would not be affected, noting that the individual insurance requirement and other major portions of the legislation don't take effect until 2014. Some provisions of the law took effect in September, six months after its passage, including free preventive care, an elimination of lifetime limits on coverage and requirements for insurers cover children with pre-existing health conditions and allow adult children to stay on their parents' health plans until age 26.

Hudson limited his ruling to striking down the so-called individual mandate, leaving intact other portions of the law. But administration officials and outside analysts agree that important provisions of the legislation could not go forward without the requirement for everyone to be insured. That's because insurers need to have large pools of healthy people, who are cheap to insure, or it is not financially tenable for them to extend coverage to those with pre-existing medical problems.

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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 09:13 AM
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 09:42 AM
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Not too keen on telling everyone they must purchase healthcare, yet I see how healthcare cost would come down if everyone had some sort of coverage rather than sticking the county, State etc with the cost.
I say make it easy, single payer. Or medicare for all if that sounds better.

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 09:59 AM
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If this is upheld on appeal, the fix is simple - take out the mandate and offer a nice tax credit for those with insurance instead. Problem solved.

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under200 View Post
Not too keen on telling everyone they must purchase healthcare, yet I see how healthcare cost would come down if everyone had some sort of coverage rather than sticking the county, State etc with the cost.
I say make it easy, single payer. Or medicare for all if that sounds better.
explain this single payer concept for me in as few words as possible

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:05 AM
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Single Payer:

There is only one insurance co for health care in the US. All claims are filed to that company - Single payer.

That co would likely end up as the US Govt, as it is now for Medicare and Medicaid.

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beac83 View Post
Single Payer:

There is only one insurance co for health care in the US. All claims are filed to that company - Single payer.

That co would likely end up as the US Govt, as it is now for Medicare and Medicaid.
eeek, sounds bad... infact i think there are laws against things like that... ah yes anti-monopoly laws thats right
thanks for the summary

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by beac83 View Post
If this is upheld on appeal, the fix is simple - take out the mandate and offer a nice tax credit for those with insurance instead. Problem solved.
Doesn't that require the legislation to be rewritten and voted on again?

Meaning we have to go through the same damn fights all over again?
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotx1 View Post
explain this single payer concept for me in as few words as possible
Copied from the web:
Single-payer health care: A system of health care characterized by universal and comprehensive coverage. Single-payer health care is similar to the health services provided by Medicare in the US. The government pays for care that is delivered in the private (mostly not-for-profit) sector. Doctors are in private practice and are paid on a fee-for-service basis from government funds. The government does not own or manage their medical practices or hospitals.

Single-payer health care is distinct and different from socialized medicine in which doctors and hospitals work for and draw salaries from the government.
----------------------------------------------------
The tax or payment is taken from everybody check just like your fed tax or state tax. The way I see it is that right now we pay for all sorts of stuff through our fed takes; military, coast guard, prison's, politicians salaries etc. Would be nice to pay for something we personally use when we get sick or hurt.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:20 AM
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Putting the consumer needs a side for a second. A single payer system would be terrible to healthcare providers as the amount reimbursed for services would not be adequate. This could in theory result in the decline in quality of services provided to all.

Also, another consideration is that the current insurance companies employee alot of people who would be left unemployed and collecting unemployment benefits.

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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under200 View Post
Not too keen on telling everyone they must purchase healthcare, yet I see how healthcare cost would come down if everyone had some sort of coverage rather than sticking the county, State etc with the cost.
I say make it easy, single payer. Or medicare for all if that sounds better.
we dont like the idea of a single payer system especially as it would likely turnout to be the govt.

but with these additional requirements they are putting on insurance companies, many insurance companies may end up, one by one, opting out of providing health insurance coverage we may end up with a single payer system.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ninjaeric View Post
we dont like the idea of a single payer system especially as it would likely turnout to be the govt.

but with these additional requirements they are putting on insurance companies, many insurance companies may end up, one by one, opting out of providing health insurance coverage we may end up with a single payer system.
Curious, do doctors have a hard time collecting from medicare? Is it easier or more difficult than from a private insurance company?
My grandmothers cardiologist does very well and he primarily treats older patients who use medicare and some sort of sup like aarp.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by under200 View Post
Curious, do doctors have a hard time collecting from medicare? Is it easier or more difficult than from a private insurance company?
My grandmothers cardiologist does very well and he primarily treats older patients who use medicare and some sort of sup like aarp.
Medicare reimburses at a lower rate then most insurance companies. Also, Medicare imposes too many regulations and reporting requirements which in theory save tax payers money, but in reality cost healthcare providers so much that it increases the cost of health care.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:47 AM
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my sister is a doctor and she hates medicare, their payments make her time worthless - something like $20 for a visit that she spends at least 30 minutes with a patient because she cares and because they need it. she has a choice to decline to accept it or start spending less time with each patient, driving the quality of service down
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:56 AM
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In Iowa, the ones on state aid get the best care because that state pays up and pays well compared to most private insurance companies.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 10:59 AM
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In Iowa, the ones on state aid get the best care because that state pays up and pays well compared to most private insurance companies.
Not the case in IL and what is even more messed up with Medicaid, is that Health Care organizations aren't able to report the difference between what Medicaid pays and what should be collected as charitable care.

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 11:26 AM
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Doesn't that require the legislation to be rewritten and voted on again?

Meaning we have to go through the same damn fights all over again?
Probably not. If that specific provision is thrown out, they can pass a revision to the bill that would just deal with that.

However, given the political hay to be made on both sides from this, I wouldn't hold my breath....

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 12:26 PM
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It's fine if the judiciary branch rules that buying health care can not be mandated. IF, its also ruled that treating an uninsured person is optional, not mandatory.

My hope with the health care reform was to get more people paying into the system that they're using, that aren't currently paying anything. If that's not going to happen....... then we need to go after the other side of the coin.

Stop giving health care to people who don't pay into the system.



Not sure if the ruling is going to stand. If the Government can't force you to buy into a plan or buy something.......... Then it could be argued that my paycheck deduction for Social Security is unconstitutional. The Govt is forcing me to buy into a retirement plan.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under200 View Post
Curious, do doctors have a hard time collecting from medicare? Is it easier or more difficult than from a private insurance company?
My grandmothers cardiologist does very well and he primarily treats older patients who use medicare and some sort of sup like aarp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsd656 View Post
Medicare reimburses at a lower rate then most insurance companies. Also, Medicare imposes too many regulations and reporting requirements which in theory save tax payers money, but in reality cost healthcare providers so much that it increases the cost of health care.
this. we see medicare patients as we feel a social obligation to do so but if we had a large percentage of medicare patients it would strain our practice. perhaps your grandmother's cardiologist does ok as medicare tends to reimburse procedures at a higher rate than just office visits.

i dont think we want national healthcare. i do think its crazy that we have so many uninsured patients in our country. i think its not right to require patients to have healthcare but then if someone is uninsured that is a personal choice BUT they should bear the personal responsibility of that decision and should get their healthcare at an expanded governmental facility be it an expansion of county clinics or whatever form that might take. and dont complain if you have to wait a long time for appointments because it will be free or discounted care.

my personal general beef is with people who have a sense of entitlement which goes along with a basic loss of personal responsibility but then OH MY BAD I FORGOT personal responsibility for anything is no longer required on this planet of ours. everything (for some people) is someone's else's fault or someone's else responsibility to take care of it for them.

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 12:54 PM
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Not sure if the ruling is going to stand. If the Government can't force you to buy into a plan or buy something.......... Then it could be argued that my paycheck deduction for Social Security is unconstitutional. The Govt is forcing me to buy into a retirement plan.
Good point. I guess to have a civilized society we all have to chip in regardless if we use all services or not. The Fed. tax that comes out of each check gets spread out to all sorts of programs that I do not use. Likewise my property taxes fund things I do not use either, for example the schools. I have no kids so theoretically I should not be paying for the school system. Guess the point is that if everyone only paid for the exact services they use the whole social structure and civilization would fall apart because of lack of funds.

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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
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...If the Government can't force you to buy into a plan or buy something.......... Then it could be argued that my paycheck deduction for Social Security is unconstitutional. The Govt is forcing me to buy into a retirement plan.
The ruling should stand (key word here is should) because it is unconstitutional for government to force the citizens to purchase anything.
Social security is not a retirement plan. It is a tax that is (supposed to be) set aside to provide assistance to the elderly and the indigent/infirm. You are not buying it, you are funding it with a tax. That's exactly what makes the health care reform act unconstitutional...It is supposed to be funded by mandating that everyone buy insurance...BUT...the government cannot mandate that we buy anything.
This is also why the whole act will go down in flames if this ruling is upheld because the part that funds it will be thrown out and without funding the rest of the provisions are useless.
At least that's how I understand it.

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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
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The ruling should stand (key word here is should) because it is unconstitutional for government to force the citizens to purchase anything.
Social security is not a retirement plan. It is a tax that is (supposed to be) set aside to provide assistance to the elderly and the indigent/infirm. You are not buying it, you are funding it with a tax. That's exactly what makes the health care reform act unconstitutional...It is supposed to be funded by mandating that everyone buy insurance...BUT...the government cannot mandate that we buy anything.
This is also why the whole act will go down in flames if this ruling is upheld because the part that funds it will be thrown out and without funding the rest of the provisions are useless.
At least that's how I understand it.
That's pretty spot on. Not only that, but if you have the same number of uninsured using the system as before and still using health care...... Nothings changed. The only way to make health care cheaper for most of us, is to increase the money coming in from the leeches.

If the government can't mandate you buy something, but CAN mandate a tax for something, that's what they'll do. Youll see a national tax of $4k a year to pay for health insurance. If you have your own, you'll get a tax break.
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleZ View Post
That's pretty spot on. Not only that, but if you have the same number of uninsured using the system as before and still using health care...... Nothings changed. The only way to make health care cheaper for most of us, is to increase the money coming in from the leeches.

If the government can't mandate you buy something, but CAN mandate a tax for something, that's what they'll do. Youll see a national tax of $4k a year to pay for health insurance. If you have your own, you'll get a tax break.
dead on agree. if you pay for insurance you should get a tax break or if you supply it for an employee you should get a tax break.

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