hydraulic or pneumatic speed valve - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 10:24 PM Thread Starter
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hydraulic or pneumatic speed valve

anyone know where i can get, or what it would be called

a hydraulic or pneumatic valve that allows me to control the speed of a cylinder in one direction but allows freeflow in the other

i need to control the compression of a cylinder while allowing it to extend freely

-Jason
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 10:33 PM
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBettyR1 View Post
bingo, exactly what i need
a hydraulic closed loop would be nice but this is just about as good

-Jason
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 10:39 PM
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you need it for hydraulic?
its called a adjustable checkvalve. I got some if you need, they are used but still working... in german you call them Drossel rueckschlagventil...

... What do you try to do? I have a ton of parts that I just have floating around that would work for most things...

pneumatic you regulate on the outflow side, hydraulic on the inflow side....

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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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im using the cylinder to control the descent of the load while not impeding the lifting
the cylinder does not provide the force necessary to lift, it just controls descent

-Jason
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 11:05 PM
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Theres numerous ways you could do this. but what the easiest way is a needle valve or flow control valve.




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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 11:11 PM
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What kind of cylinder are you using, spring return? double acting? etc?




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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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simple and rugged are primary concerns, after that compact, ill probably be looking at about a 450lb load give or take and id like to use a 3/4 dia bore cylinder to keep things small

the cylinder isnt chosen yet it will probably be a double acting type because of commonality with the control on the port that would extend the piston if pressure were applied

-Jason
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotx1 View Post
simple and rugged are primary concerns, after that compact, ill probably be looking at about a 450lb load give or take and id like to use a 3/4 dia bore cylinder to keep things small

the cylinder isnt chosen yet it will probably be a double acting type because of commonality with the control on the port that would extend the piston if pressure were applied
Double acting will be the easiest way to go. simple 2 way valve with a needle valve installed in the input of the exhaust side of the valve. simple, compact and easy. Just depends on what kind of 2 way you want whether its spring return, normally open, normally closed, lever actuated, spring actuated..... etc etc, theres tons of options depending on what type of functionality your looking for.




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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-07-2011, 11:50 PM
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Re: hydraulic or pneumatic speed valve

Flow metering device and a check valve.

Jordan
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 10:10 AM
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I dont have cad on this computer so this isnt very neat, but heres a little diagram of what I'm thinking you may be looking for. you havent told me what your trying to control.

this circuit would by controlled by a 3 position lever
1. up
center: off
3. down with speed control

speed would be adjustable by the flow control valve on the exhaust of the cylinder. (the symbol with 2 arcs and an arrow)


Oh and to you professional engineers out there, cut me some slack, haven't done this since college. LOL



Attached Images
File Type: png cylinder.png (3.9 KB, 10 views)

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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im trying to control the compression speed of the cylinder when a load is placed on it.
it needs to be a set it and forget it setup

when i release the load to travel downwards i need the cylinder to control the drop speed rather than letting it drop

perhaps the closest analogy would be one of those dirtbike stands that extends upwards with a foot pedal but has that shock absorber thing on it so when you want to lower the bike it doesnt just drop freely

there is no outsied pressure source to operate the cylinder, its not really a hydraulic or pneumatic system, if i go with pneumatic ill just be dumping to atmosphere, if hydraulic ill just recirculate the oil from one side of the cylinder to the other

-Jason
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 11:49 AM
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Pnuematic cheaper and easier. And the design I drew you wil do exactly why you want. Take that to any valve shop and it will be like a shopping list.




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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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the 3 position lever wont work for me though

-Jason
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 12:06 PM
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Re: hydraulic or pneumatic speed valve

Quote:
im trying to control the compression speed of the cylinder when a load is placed on it.
it needs to be a set it and forget it setup

when i release the load to travel downwards i need the cylinder to control the drop speed rather than letting it drop

perhaps the closest analogy would be one of those dirtbike stands that extends upwards with a foot pedal but has that shock absorber thing on it so when you want to lower the bike it doesnt just drop freely

there is no outsied pressure source to operate the cylinder, its not really a hydraulic or pneumatic system, if i go with pneumatic ill just be dumping to atmosphere, if hydraulic ill just recirculate the oil from one side of the cylinder to the other
For the last time - Orifice plate and check valve.

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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
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the 3 position lever wont work for me though
? Why not? do you need it el. controlled? the same valve is most likely as a el. coil valve available...

tonys drawing is spot on... if you like to make it really complicated, you install an el. check valve right on the bottom of the piston, that will keep the piston up as much as possible, even when no pressure is engaged.

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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no it was to be automatic, no external user operation no external power source

a check valve will either prevent the cyl from compressing or expanding, it needs to expand freely and compress at a controlled rate

maybe a leaky check valve would work but thats not what im looking for, I do understand the orifice plate thing though loki

-Jason
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 01:16 PM
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You keep using the word compress, return would be a better word, will there be weight on the ram under return? or does it need to retract under its own power like a spring return or air return? Like on a bike lift for example. Also what do you want to trigger the valve? solonoid? mechanical, electrical? lazer? theres numerous ways to do it. I can draw this circuit like I did or it could take 20 pages and do the same thing LOL




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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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the weight of the load will make the ram return, lemme see if i cant draw a quick diagram of what i want

-Jason
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 01:45 PM
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Just remeber valves arent psychic they need to be actuated somehow. where it be by the ram itself reaching full extension, or by an electric switch with a solonoid actuation. something has to trip it.




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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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ok here we go
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File Type: jpg speed control.jpg (20.3 KB, 17 views)

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 02:23 PM
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you are only using one cylinder right? if not it gets really tricky...


back to basics...
1.st
hydraulic or pneumatic... with 430lbs I would go and use hydraulic as it will not compress as much when you put the load on it initially... Or you have to go pretty big with pneumatic.
2.nd
I take you are pretty much building an elevator, right?
do hydraulic, use a el. actuated check valve on the bottom, this will give you safety and prevent from from dropping when being loaded.
use a el. 2/3 way valve, with spring recoil on both sides. this will ensure that if something happens the valve will stop lifting/ lowering.
put a regulation valve (still can't remember the US name), in BOTH lines, so you can regulate the flow in both directions ( if you only use one, you are at grace of the pump flow for going up, which might be too fast...)
use a switch for up and down, or timer... and use a relay to hold itself for staying in direction all the way to the end position. The relay also needs to open the checkvalve on the bottom of the piston.
Use two limit switches one for up and one for down they will open the self holding circuit for lowering / raising.
you could also use a plc but that would be overkill for an application like this...


if you like we can meet and I show you this in a real world application.... I have a few of those close by the schaumburg airport...

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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yes once cylinder, there is no external power source for the cylinder, no pumps, no pressure tanks, just gravity
my diagram is the entire system,
its kinda like an elevator but the cylinder has nothing to do with lifting only slowign the decent

-Jason
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047 View Post
For the last time - Orifice plate and check valve.
This. Check valve allows almost unrestricted flow for returning the cylinder to the up position. Orifice allows the cylinder to compress, but slowly.

Hydraulics would be less tricky. Pneumatics to do what your asking, and you're getting into some really small orifices.

You can also do this with a calibrated leak rate check valve. It combines the orifice into the seat of the check valve. If the cylinder never has to hold the weight at a certain height, this might be the way to go. One piece design.+


This for your thing you were talking about a few months ago?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#orifices/=ai7khp

http://www.mcmaster.com/#hydraulic-check-valves/=ai7kwl

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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the cylinder is never expected to hold position, only control descent

and yes chris, same thing from a few months ago

-Jason
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 04:51 PM
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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"I'll take overcomplicated descriptions for $200 Alex"

"What is a motorcycle lift?"

"Correct!"

you cheated and read post #12 didnt you

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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 06:11 PM
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you cheated and read post #12 didnt you
Next time you are around you can look at my setup. Cost a whole dollar and a half, no drawings by engineers, and no overschooled explanation on how or why it works. I just took an air valve from Home Depot, and drilled a small relief hole in the one side to let the air escape after filling the lift when you flip the valve to the other side.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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its not for a table style lift

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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 09:53 PM
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Re: hydraulic or pneumatic speed valve

Quote:
no it was to be automatic, no external user operation no external power source

a check valve will either prevent the cyl from compressing or expanding, it needs to expand freely and compress at a controlled rate

maybe a leaky check valve would work but thats not what im looking for, I do understand the orifice plate thing though loki
Use both. The check valve is mounted in parrwlel to the orifice

Jordan
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