Do kids really need K-12 Education - Chicagoland Sportbikes
Chicagoland Sportbikes
 
Open Forum This forum is for all off-topic discussion.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gone In 3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas/Chicago
Posts: 5,771
Location: Texas/Chicago
Sportbike: CBR1000RR
Years Riding: Been around the block with training wheels
How you found us: Folks
           
Do kids really need K-12 Education

A random thought -- how much our education do we really use at work as engineers, doctors, mechanics, drivers, etc?

If I had to relive my life, I would shorten the amount of days I spent in school and college.

Yes, it does expose you to all that's out there, but 20 years of education -- of which a good amount that will never be used -- is quite a lot.

What do you guys think?
Gone In 3 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 01:57 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
you read and write everyday. Hell you even do basic arithimatic everyday. Surely you didn't just learn that shit as an adult.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 01:58 PM
Irony helps us play!
 
Arch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N'ville
Posts: 29,508
Location: N'ville
Sportbike: 2000 F4
Years Riding: Long enough to know better
How you found us: some hot MILF whispered it in my ear
           
With the shit jobs that will remain in this country and the good ones going going gone overseas, it might be prudent to revisit the 'need'.

Slightly sarcastic, but with a scary twist of truth in there.

Everyone Exaggerates

We're being taken for a ride... agaaaaaaain.....


Best Auto/Moto Insurance | Motorcycle Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
Arch is offline  
post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,696
Location: Illinois
Sportbike: ninja
Years Riding: since I was a kid
How you found us: K.I.T.T.
           
we can squeeze college in the k-12 if we taught like the asians.
taledarkside is offline  
post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:01 PM
Defender of the Innocent
 
Supergirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Woodstock, IL
Posts: 2,918
Location: Woodstock, IL
Sportbike: Simon and Garfunkel
Years Riding: over a decade
How you found us: YZFRob
           
yeah. at least k-12 and a lot harder than what's taught here.

Tea Palella
Midwest Instructor

SportbikeTrackTime - SportbikeTrackGear - SportbikeTrackGirl

IMMIGracing
CCS #56 - Arlen Ness Racing, Hindle, Silkolene, Suomy, Woodcraft, Vortex, Sharkskinz, PopShadow, TrackdayMag.com, Cyclepath Racing
ChicagoLand Bikers.com
Supergirl is offline  
post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:04 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
social skills are learned at school too.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:04 PM
Bek
Your Cigar Aficionado
 
Bek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Posts: 7,144
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Sportbike: 2007 Yamaha FZ6 & 2000 Kawasaki Vulcan 800 Classic
Years Riding: Long enough to know not long enough...
How you found us: Google-fu
           
Send a message via Yahoo to Bek
How much of your education do you unconsciously use?

Comprehension? Logic? Problem solving? Hypothesizing? Experimentation?

These are all techniques that would not have been honed, if we had foregone an education.

Have you learned any lessons from History? History has a great deal to teach us... people fuck up daily - why repeat them?

Do you have an appreciation for art? What about literature? Do you know how to read something, then read between the lines to decipher underlying messages that an author was attempting to subtly convey?

If your personal education happened to suck, well sorry... I'm not going to attempt to touch the topic of the quality of education here. On the other hand, I will strongly stand by the statement that a GOOD education is invaluable.
Bek is offline  
post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gone In 3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas/Chicago
Posts: 5,771
Location: Texas/Chicago
Sportbike: CBR1000RR
Years Riding: Been around the block with training wheels
How you found us: Folks
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
you read and write everyday. Hell you even do basic arithimatic everyday. Surely you didn't just learn that shit as an adult.
Really? We use a calculator these days for even simple arithmetic.

I'm not talking about eliminating education, but make it concentrated -- teaching only what's relevant or giving the option to choose what's relevant to the child after a certain amount of exposure.
Gone In 3 is offline  
post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Irony helps us play!
 
Arch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N'ville
Posts: 29,508
Location: N'ville
Sportbike: 2000 F4
Years Riding: Long enough to know better
How you found us: some hot MILF whispered it in my ear
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone In 3 View Post
Really? We use a calculator these days for even simple arithmetic.

I'm not talking about eliminating education, but make it concentrated -- teaching only what's relevant or giving the option to choose what's relevant to the child after a certain amount of exposure.
Oh, you mean like a dark ages or some form of filtered propaganda ?

Everyone Exaggerates

We're being taken for a ride... agaaaaaaain.....


Best Auto/Moto Insurance | Motorcycle Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
Arch is offline  
post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gone In 3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas/Chicago
Posts: 5,771
Location: Texas/Chicago
Sportbike: CBR1000RR
Years Riding: Been around the block with training wheels
How you found us: Folks
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bek View Post
How much of your education do you unconsciously use?

Comprehension? Logic? Problem solving? Hypothesizing? Experimentation?

These are all techniques that would not have been honed, if we had foregone an education.

Have you learned any lessons from History? History has a great deal to teach us... people fuck up daily - why repeat them?

Do you have an appreciation for art? What about literature? Do you know how to read something, then read between the lines to decipher underlying messages that an author was attempting to subtly convey?

If your personal education happened to suck, well sorry... I'm not going to attempt to touch the topic of the quality of education here. On the other hand, I will strongly stand by the statement that a GOOD education is invaluable.
Learning history is no doubt very important, but I have also learned and memorized a lot of historical facts and events that are totally irrelevant and waste of time.

I agree with your points on math and science.
Gone In 3 is offline  
post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:12 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
learning is never a waste of time. I love to learn irrelevant shit.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:21 PM
Bek
Your Cigar Aficionado
 
Bek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Posts: 7,144
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Sportbike: 2007 Yamaha FZ6 & 2000 Kawasaki Vulcan 800 Classic
Years Riding: Long enough to know not long enough...
How you found us: Google-fu
           
Send a message via Yahoo to Bek
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone In 3 View Post
Really? We use a calculator these days for even simple arithmetic.
And who said that that was a good thing?

Do you seriously bust out a calculator EVERY single time you must do even simple arithmetic?

Right now at work, I'm doing some analysis on data. Got a resultset of 177,000 duplicate records, out of approximately 2 million total records. Mentioned to my manager that almost 10% of our dataset was suspect. Did I bust out a calculator to pull that out of my ass? No, I approximated the math in my head.... because I was taught how to do math with my brain, not with my finger.
Bek is offline  
post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:22 PM
Registered User
 
Pilotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Elk Grove IL
Posts: 15,830
Location: Elk Grove IL
Sportbike: '03 Gsxr 1000, '04 Zuma,07 GSXR 600 trackbike
Years Riding: june 2007, since new,july '10
How you found us: friend
           
Send a message via AIM to Pilotx1 Send a message via Yahoo to Pilotx1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk View Post
learning is never a waste of time. I love to learn irrelevant shit.
this

-Jason
CCS AM #31
Pilotx1 is offline  
post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:35 PM
Human lawn dart
 
rdrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palatine
Posts: 5,746
Location: Palatine
Sportbike: 03 ninja 6r 05 ttr-230 04 klx300r
Years Riding: 12
How you found us: I know all
           
Send a message via AIM to rdrash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone In 3 View Post
Really? We use a calculator these days for even simple arithmetic.

I'm not talking about eliminating education, but make it concentrated -- teaching only what's relevant or giving the option to choose what's relevant to the child after a certain amount of exposure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Oh, you mean like a dark ages or some form of filtered propaganda ?
WOW. Do you bust out a calculator to see if you have enough money for the vending machine.

You could go do a little reading and see what it was like in the middle ages for people without an education.

I'm not short. I'm aerodynamically efficient.

Anti Helmet Laws Pro Darwinism
MotoGP 200 mph no roll cage
NESBA # 599
rdrash is offline  
post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:39 PM
Registered User
 
greeny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,663
Location: Manchester, NH
Sportbike: Half an SV 650
Years Riding: '07
How you found us: CLSB found me
           
just from reeding this bored, i think a few more years in elementary school wouldn't be such a bad idea...

Jordan
NESBA/CCS #811
greeny is offline  
post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:41 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
I have to say here at my job, we a have a girl with her MBA from U of Chicago and yes she is very efficient and ass kissed her way to a manager position, but she is fuckin dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to anything outside of her realm of Quality assurance. My last boss had his MBA from UNC and again was a fuckin idiot when it came to People, Human behaviour, social skills. He was also efficient as hell and had some great ideas but he eventually went by the wayside due to poor people skills. I value education but nowadays i wonder if its better for my kids to just go to a friggin trade school to learn how to work on fawkin diesel trucks or high end cars and kick ass at that and make $100k a year if they are good than go and drop $100K + for some party school, to get shit rammed down their throats that they have no desire to learn and will forget and never use in a real world application and get out of school and cant even get a job managing a Fawkin starbucks for $25k a year!

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.

Last edited by tnat; 05-31-2011 at 02:49 PM.
tnat is offline  
post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:43 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bek View Post
And who said that that was a good thing?

Do you seriously bust out a calculator EVERY single time you must do even simple arithmetic?

Right now at work, I'm doing some analysis on data. Got a resultset of 177,000 duplicate records, out of approximately 2 million total records. Mentioned to my manager that almost 10% of our dataset was suspect. Did I bust out a calculator to pull that out of my ass? No, I approximated the math in my head.... because I was taught how to do math with my brain, not with my finger.
Shit my dad didnt get his GED till he was 44 yrs old and he coulda figured that out, he runs the books at my brothers concrete company and is always finding shit the fawkin union accountants overlook and my brothers accountant overlook - simple math shit.

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.
tnat is offline  
post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:44 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdrash View Post
WOW. Do you bust out a calculator to see if you have enough money for the vending machine.

You could go do a little reading and see what it was like in the middle ages for people without an education.
How many Millimeters are there in a 28" pants inseam?

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.
tnat is offline  
post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:45 PM
Sarcasm in every post.
 
scout67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 40mi West of the City
Posts: 4,538
Location: 40mi West of the City
Sportbike: '01 ZX-6R, '88 Katana 600
Years Riding: 20+yrs.
How you found us: Written on a YWB's ass. Next to "EMR was here"
           
I think K-12 education needs to be broadened to include "Communication Skills." Both vocal and documentary. Texting has had an adverse effect on both.

Ken.


My Garage.

It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.
scout67 is offline  
post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:47 PM
Registered User
 
greeny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,663
Location: Manchester, NH
Sportbike: Half an SV 650
Years Riding: '07
How you found us: CLSB found me
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnat View Post
... to get shit rammed down their throts...
where the hell did you go to school?

Jordan
NESBA/CCS #811
greeny is offline  
post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:49 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
you learn to mack on the hoes in k-12. That is invaluable! The idea is to go away to college with your mack game strong.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:49 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeny View Post
where the hell did you go to school?
The school of ' The German Goo Girls.com"!

look them up

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.
tnat is offline  
post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:52 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone In 3 View Post
He went to a Catholic school.
I tried to give you rep for that one, but then again you went to the Afgani dancing boy acadamy - which ties into the "Germangoogirls.com" school of logic!

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.
tnat is offline  
post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gone In 3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas/Chicago
Posts: 5,771
Location: Texas/Chicago
Sportbike: CBR1000RR
Years Riding: Been around the block with training wheels
How you found us: Folks
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnat View Post
...to get shit rammed down their throats..
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeny View Post
where the hell did you go to school?
He went to a Catholic school.
Gone In 3 is offline  
post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:56 PM
Human lawn dart
 
rdrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palatine
Posts: 5,746
Location: Palatine
Sportbike: 03 ninja 6r 05 ttr-230 04 klx300r
Years Riding: 12
How you found us: I know all
           
Send a message via AIM to rdrash
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnat View Post
How many Millimeters are there in a 28" pants inseam?
711 give or take.

I'm not short. I'm aerodynamically efficient.

Anti Helmet Laws Pro Darwinism
MotoGP 200 mph no roll cage
NESBA # 599
rdrash is offline  
post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
Registered User
 
Chunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,847
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: I don't ride
How you found us: google
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnat View Post
How many Millimeters are there in a 28" pants inseam?
4 millimeters less than mah dick. What are you doing in the white house if you're not selling cocaine. Axe your wife Nancy Reagan you know she'll spit that game. Like one day she came to my house to give me a blow job, she licked mah dick up and down like it was corn on the cob.

<---- Useless Mufugga
Chunk is offline  
post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Special Agent Lance Boyle
 
Sticky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: planet earth
Posts: 6,707
Location: planet earth
Sportbike: 2010 KX250F
Years Riding: 26
How you found us: Sportbike Network
           
Send a message via AIM to Sticky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Oh, you mean like a dark ages or some form of filtered propaganda ?
Texas?


Quote:
Originally Posted by greeny View Post
just from reeding this bored

<--------Sticky Nicky

Last edited by Sticky; 05-31-2011 at 03:29 PM.
Sticky is offline  
post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 03:40 PM
Bek
Your Cigar Aficionado
 
Bek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Posts: 7,144
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Sportbike: 2007 Yamaha FZ6 & 2000 Kawasaki Vulcan 800 Classic
Years Riding: Long enough to know not long enough...
How you found us: Google-fu
           
Send a message via Yahoo to Bek
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnat View Post
Shit my dad didnt get his GED till he was 44 yrs old and he coulda figured that out, he runs the books at my brothers concrete company and is always finding shit the fawkin union accountants overlook and my brothers accountant overlook - simple math shit.
But did your father completely forgo all education, including elementary? I am guessing no, whereas Mateen is asserting that not only high school, but K-8 education has little value.

Besides, my point was to dispute Mateen's assertion that people always use calculators for all simple math these days.
Bek is offline  
post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
Pringles can user
 
tnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: woodstock,illinois
Posts: 6,269
Location: woodstock,illinois
Sportbike: 2005 YZ250
Years Riding: 1977
How you found us: Geo
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bek View Post
But did your father completely forgo all education, including elementary? I am guessing no, whereas Mateen is asserting that not only high school, but K-8 education has little value.

Besides, my point was to dispute Mateen's assertion that people always use calculators for all simple math these days.
dropped out at 15 when his dad died as he had to help out the famliy and went to work. Whats funny is the old man was a local truck driver - teamster, retired at 55 yrs old due to health issues, has a paid off condo in desplaines bought it for $300k, takes about 6 vacations a year, maui, arizona, florida, car is paid off, Mercedes the lower unit, did well with his investments and saved his money- something i could learn a thing or two-lol and my fatherinlaw - MBA from U of Michigan - works 3 fawkin jobs is near 60, house is paid off in tenn, but dude is still busting his ass and is never home and is miserable.
Makes you wonder, my old man always said bigger isnt always better. shit and hes 72 yrs young. I envy the guy sometimes, live a simple life not complicated at all.

DO YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER DIRT OR MX RIDER OR LEARN TO RIDE DIRT?


CLICK THE LINK!


http://www.club57mx.com/



Wiping my last dump was like cleaning Laffy Taffy off a hot car dashboard.
Doug Stanhope



Thanks to my Sponsors - Gaerne, Protaper, ScottUSA, MSR, Motomaster Brake systems, Faction MX, Sunline, Dr D, EVS, DECAL WORKS.
tnat is offline  
post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2011, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gone In 3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Texas/Chicago
Posts: 5,771
Location: Texas/Chicago
Sportbike: CBR1000RR
Years Riding: Been around the block with training wheels
How you found us: Folks
           
Bek, I didn't say education has little value, but that it should be condensed and trimmed to cover relevant and practical subjects.
Gone In 3 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chicagoland Sportbikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome