Freedoms in Question? - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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Freedoms in Question?

Let's say you're a retailer of sportbikes and you refuse to sell an open class bike to a new rider or, an inexperienced rider. Could you be at a legal risk?

Think about this case.

Since 1991, "BreakPoint" has been telling people about the steady erosion of our religious freedom. That freedom is increasingly being limited to what goes on even inside our churches or inside our heads. Well, earlier this month, another chunk was taken out of our religious freedom, and then, as before, Christians have been all too quiet.

Across the country, many pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions for oral contraceptives: "the pill" and the so-called "morning-after pill." For instance, many Catholic pharmacists will not dispense "the pill" because they believe that it would violate their conscience and their Church's teaching.


Other pharmacists draw the line at the "morning-after pill," which causes a spontaneous abortion. Like Karen Brauer of Lawrenceburg, Indiana, they refuse to participate in the "killing [of] humans at any stage of development." They agree with Brauer that "if women really want this drug, they are going to have to find a willing provider."

This seems reasonable, especially in areas where there are several pharmacies within a few minutes of each other. But it's not enough for the folks at Planned Parenthood. When a pharmacist in downtown Chicago refused to fill a prescription, they organized a protest, despite the fact that women in the area have many alternatives.

What right was being violated? In the words of the Chicago Tribune, it was the "right to access contraceptives without a hassle."

This so-called "right" would be comical except for what happened next: Earlier this month, Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich issued an "emergency rule" that required pharmacies to "accept and fill prescriptions for contraceptives without delay." In addition, he set up a toll-free number for reporting pharmacists who refuse.

Playing Charlie McCarthy to NARAL's Edgar Bergen, Blagojevich called the refusals "part and parcel of a larger campaign," noting that similar things are happening "all across the country."

Yes, Mr. Governor, conscience, especially religiously informed conscience, is funny that way. If a Christian in Chicago thinks that something is morally suspect, chances are that Christians in Indiana and Colorado will, too. Noting similarities and parroting NARAL's conspiratorial rhetoric doesn't change the fact that Governor Blagojevich trampled the religious freedom of pharmacists in order to protect the "right" of women to get a prescription filled "without a hassle."


Events like those in Illinois have prompted legislatures in thirteen states to consider giving pharmacists the same "conscience-clause" rights that doctors have. But four other states and Democrats in Congress are proposing legislation similar to Blagojevich's order. These bills would explicitly give a patient's "convenience" priority over a pharmacist's "religious or moral" convictions.


The disregard and contempt for religious freedom in these proposals is breathtaking. "Religious freedom" that is limited to an hour on Sunday and private thoughts is no freedom at all. There is a word for government that forces people to do what their consciences condemn: tyranny.

That's why Christians must unite to protect "conscience-clause" rights of pharmacists everywhere. If we don't speak up for the pharmacists, the next chunk of freedom taken away will be ours.

Bill Taborn, Jr.

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post #2 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:14 AM
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That's fucked up, when you go to work you should leave your religion at home.

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post #3 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:20 AM
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That's fucked up, when you go to work you should leave your religion at home.


+1 Just count the fucking pills and put them in the bottle. It's not my fault you couldn't get into med school.

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post #4 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:23 AM
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Yeah, we should find out pharmacies that are not filling them and request things like;
"I need some crab shampoo, I got craps from fucking hookers. Oh yeah, gotteny RU-486?" It's going to rain this weekend, could be good fun; bring video....

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post #5 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:26 AM
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IMHO, in cases like this, the employer should be able to decide what the policy is. The pharmacist merely works for the employer. If this policy does not conform to someones religion, this person must make a personal decision to either comply with the policy or move to a new pharmacy that is more aligned with his religious beliefs.

The government should not be allowed to mandate that you violate your religious beliefs. That said, the requirements for state or federal licensing do not necessarily have to comply with any religious beliefs.

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post #6 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
That's why Christians must unite to protect "conscience-clause" rights of pharmacists everywhere. If we don't speak up for the pharmacists, the next chunk of freedom taken away will be ours.
You are free to have a conscience. If your conscience does not allow dispensing legally prescribed medication, then you are in the wrong profession and should excersize your right to find another you find less objectionable.

Businesses routinely refusing to fill legal prescriptions should have their license to do so revoked.

Dave
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post #7 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloRoll
IMHO, in cases like this, the employer should be able to decide what the policy is. The pharmacist merely works for the employer. If this policy does not conform to someones religion, this person must make a personal decision to either comply with the policy or move to a new pharmacy that is more aligned with his religious beliefs.

If you own your own pharmacy the government should not be allowed to mandate that you violate your religious beliefs.



I agree wholeheartedly, this is the how personal freedoms should be exercised. Don't try to sue CVS because they want you to do the job that you were hired for, get a different job.

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post #8 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:37 AM
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That ain't right. WTF is next under religious pretext - cashier at jewel not letting me buy pork cause they're Jewish? Fuck that.
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post #9 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaDave
You are free to have a conscience. If your conscience does not allow dispensing legally prescribed medication, then you are in the wrong profession and should excersize your right to find another you find less objectionable.

Businesses routinely refusing to fill legal prescriptions should have their license to do so revoked.
QFE. Well said Dave.

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post #10 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:43 AM
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First of all, professional decisions should not based upon a religious believe. If you support the pharmacies then you should think about other diseases not just abortion. What if a pharmacist refuse to fill a prescription for life saving medication because he/she believes that God created life and he should take it away and that prescribed medication interferes with God's work. There are people who refuse medical attention based on their religion every day. It is not pharmacist decision to decide if someone should or should not get some medication. They should fill the order doctors prescribed. If we allow this practice to continue then the Gas Pump owner should stop selling condoms because his religion does not indorse use of contraception. Next stop will be instead of Hospitals we will go to places of worship for medical treatment. There is a difference between mental/spiritual and physical heeling.

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post #11 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaDave
You are free to have a conscience. If your conscience does not allow dispensing legally prescribed medication, then you are in the wrong profession and should excersize your right to find another you find less objectionable.

Businesses routinely refusing to fill legal prescriptions should have their license to do so revoked.
Yes but provided that it's carried by said pharmacy, the government shouldn't be able to dictate what they carry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BWA
That ain't right. WTF is next under religious pretext - cashier at jewel not letting me buy pork cause they're Jewish? Fuck that.
That's the best analogy that I've heard on this topic, new sig quote!

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post #12 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:45 AM
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Bill,

Since when is it the Pharmasists right to say what SOMEBODY else can do, that in itself is a violation of religious freedom. If you as a christian don't believe in oral contraceptives, thats great DON'T take them, but how DARE you start to tell other people what they can and can't do. You know religion is great, but Religious freedom means people are willing to worship any god(s) or no god at all. As soon as somebody outside of my own religion starts to tell me I can't have a pill because of there religious beliefs they are preaching to me, and that isn't religious freedom.

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post #13 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Let's change the pretext from religion.

Suppose it's the private sale of your liter bike. A newbie wants it and you refuse to sell it to her. She sues you and wins. Was your freedom taken from you?

Bill T., Jr.

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..."

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post #14 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaDave
You are free to have a conscience. If your conscience does not allow dispensing legally prescribed medication, then you are in the wrong profession and should excersize your right to find another you find less objectionable.

Businesses routinely refusing to fill legal prescriptions should have their license to do so revoked.
QFE again. After going back and forth a bit (sloroll had some good points), I'd have to say Dave hit the nail on the head

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post #15 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:50 AM
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I would be interested in finding out what the licensing or accreditation required in order to become a registered pharmacist says related to the matter.
IMO, if christian pharmacists are having a troubled conscience by dispersing certain FDA approved mediacations, maybe they shouldn't be pharmacists.

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post #16 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
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Let's change the pretext from religion.

Suppose it's the private sale of your liter bike. A newbie wants it and you refuse to sell it to her. She sues you and wins. Was your freedom taken from you?

Bill T., Jr.
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post #17 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
Let's change the pretext from religion.

Suppose it's the private sale of your liter bike. A newbie wants it and you refuse to sell it to her. She sues you and wins. Was your freedom taken from you?

Bill T., Jr.
You can't mix apples and oranges. As a private seller you could sell to anyone and refuse to sell to anyone. As a health care professional you can't refuse to help and fill a prescription. If that is ok, then other proffesionals can refuse a service based on race/religion/political views and the other liberties that we enjoy in the good old USA.

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post #18 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
Let's change the pretext from religion.

Suppose it's the private sale of your liter bike. A newbie wants it and you refuse to sell it to her. She sues you and wins. Was your freedom taken from you?

Bill T., Jr.
Not sure what precident exists that suggests this newbie would win the case in your example. PRIVATE owners can do whatever they please. If I don't want to sell you something because I don't like the way you smell? Guess what? I dont' have to.

In the same vein, I agree with the above that a PRIVATELY owned/operated pharmacist should not be mandated/forced to sell anything in particular. If I go to Walgreen's though - you'd better give me what I ask for pronto.

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post #19 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVMillenian
You can't mix apples and oranges. As a private seller you could sell to anyone and refuse to sell to anyone. As a health care professional you can't refuse to help and fill a prescription. If that is ok, then other proffesionals can refuse a service based on race/religion/political views and the other liberties that we enjoy in the good old USA.
well said...

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post #20 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVMillenian
You can't mix apples and oranges. As a private seller you could sell to anyone and refuse to sell to anyone. As a health care professional you can't refuse to help and fill a prescription. If that is ok, then other proffesionals can refuse a service based on race/religion/political views and the other liberties that we enjoy in the good old USA.
I don't know if it's apples and oranges. Let's change pretext again.

Suppose I'm selling my home. It has four acres, a historic log cabin, a historic barn, fruit trees, and a house which is 2200 square feet. A couple comes to view the house and property. The husband uses a walker and the wife is in a wheelchair. I will not sell them the property because I don't think they can care for it. They sue me and win. Have my rights been violated?

Or, I go to buy a gun, the store refuses to sell it to me even though I have passed a background check. They say it's because I'm missing my fingers from an industrial accident. I say it's because they're racist. I sue, I win. Were their rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.

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post #21 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
I don't know if it's apples and oranges. Let's change pretext again.

Suppose I'm selling my home. It has four acres, a historic log cabin, a historic barn, fruit trees, and a house which is 2200 square feet. A couple comes to view the house and property. The husband uses a walker and the wife is in a wheelchair. I will not sell them the property because I don't think they can care for it. They sue me and win. Have my rights been violated?

Or, I go to buy a gun, the store refuses to sell it to me even though I have passed a background check. They say it's because I'm missing my fingers from an industrial accident. I say it's because they're racist. I sue, I win. Were their rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.
Again, you can sell the house or not sell it to anyone, for any reason.

And guns are apples & oranges. Refusing to sell someone a gun, isn't the same as someone trying to get damn medicine and being refused.
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post #22 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
I don't know if it's apples and oranges. Let's change pretext again.

Suppose I'm selling my home. It has four acres, a historic log cabin, a historic barn, fruit trees, and a house which is 2200 square feet. A couple comes to view the house and property. The husband uses a walker and the wife is in a wheelchair. I will not sell them the property because I don't think they can care for it. They sue me and win. Have my rights been violated?

Or, I go to buy a gun, the store refuses to sell it to me even though I have passed a background check. They say it's because I'm missing my fingers from an industrial accident. I say it's because they're racist. I sue, I win. Were their rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.
I may be a little off on this - but I'm pretty sure I'm close.

If you are selling that house through a realitor - guess what - if they meet your offer, you just sold the house. I believe that is one of the tenents of the Fair & Equal Housing Act. Again as a private seller - you have the right to do as you choose. Similar rules will dictate the gun purchase.

Net Net: You, in full control of the goods and services you render - can serve your moral fibers with every action.

You, under the umbrella of a larger system - have already chosen to uphold their moral fibers. Period.

If you should decide this no longer follows your code - then you have the FREEDOM to find another job.

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post #23 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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The basic question is "What constitutes freedom and when is it violated"?

We have an espousal of freedom, in this country, which seems to be violated by our legislation. I'm just curious about what everyone thinks constitutes freedom and when we know our freedoms have been take away.

Bill T., Jr.

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post #24 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:13 AM
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FYI, I have modified my original post after reading some of the responses.

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post #25 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Slo,

Let's say you own a flight school. You run an ad for a introductory flight at the rate of $40.00. Two guys come in and want the introductory flight. They're each willing to pay the forty bucks but, one acts like he's on meth and the other one is acting really nevervous. You're afraid they may do something stupid while in flight and down the plane so, you refuse to take them. The sue, they win. Were your rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..."

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post #26 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:35 AM
 
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Slo,

Let's say you own a flight school. You run an ad for a introductory flight at the rate of $40.00. Two guys come in and want the introductory flight. They're each willing to pay the forty bucks but, one acts like he's on meth and the other one is acting really nevervous. You're afraid they may do something stupid while in flight and down the plane so, you refuse to take them. The sue, they win. Were your rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.
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post #27 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:35 AM
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The sue, they win. Were your rights violated?
According to the court deciding the case, no, your rights were not violated. You could always appeal to a higher court if you believe otherwise.

How far are you going to twist this in order to "prove" your case?

Dave
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post #28 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taborn
Slo,

Let's say you own a flight school. You run an ad for a introductory flight at the rate of $40.00. Two guys come in and want the introductory flight. They're each willing to pay the forty bucks but, one acts like he's on meth and the other one is acting really nevervous. You're afraid they may do something stupid while in flight and down the plane so, you refuse to take them. The sue, they win. Were your rights violated?

Bill T., Jr.
Yes. His rights were violated by having the worst legal representation in history.

I think you're going to have a hard time opening our eyes with these hypothetical scenarios. It's hard to have a discussion when a far-fetched premise begins and ends with "They Sue, They Win..."

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post #29 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:36 AM
bwa
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Bill,
let's say you're in a hurry to get to your job, and if you're late, ya will lose it.you didn't break any law, but a cop pulls you over, cause he got a call about a suspect in a similar car. ya don't make it to work on time, and loose the job. Were your right violated?

C'mon man, there is no such thing as complete freedom. But religion and business have no place together. Unless you're ok with places refusing server to ya based on the fact ya don't believe in their god.
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post #30 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-27-2005, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
Old bikes RULE! RIDE ONE!
 
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I have no real point with all this. I saw the story and I began to question what constitutes freedom.

If I were a pharmacist, believing the same stuff I do now, I would probably fill the prescription because I think there are better ways to make a point.

If not selling someone a product or service appears in their best interest, but you're forced to sell it to them anyway, is your freedom to make an appropriate decision based on your background taken away by a legislative edict to sell the person what they want?

Yes, I do understand everyone's points, and maybe all the hypothetical situations seemed egregious at best but, what is a freedom?

Bill T., Jr.

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..."

The first turn is the worst turn, between the left ear and the right one.
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