Group Ride Leaders...Just wondering - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Group Ride Leaders...Just wondering

I would like to keep this civil if it is possible. Please NO Flaming or taking jabs at anyone from the board and their thoughts.

Ok to start off I RECOMMEND people wear helmets in a group ride setting. I wear my helmet MOST of the time when I put a group ride on especially when on the sportbike.
When on the cruiser I will probably never wear a helmet as that is MY CHOICE. (Unless in a Helmet Law State)

I would NEVER turn ANYONE away from my group rides unless I felt they were a danger to me or the other riders around. I don't feel I am above ANYONE just because they don't wear a helmet or show up in Shorts and FlipFlops.

If they have a SAFE attitude and just wanna enjoy a great time riding with
great people on great roads WHO AM I to say they can't???

I respect people wether they ride fully geared or like a squid unless they do something to take that away. Yes I give people shit about riding with or without a helmet, but that is all in fun as I've had people give me shit and I can take back what i give out.


THIS IS NOT A DEBATE WETHER TO WEAR A HELMET OR NOT!!!


Well I been doing ALOT of thinking here lately about all the Helmet wearing or not wearing.

I have seen Group Ride Leaders post "No Helmet No Show"

1)...I am just wondering what gives you the right to tell someone they can not show ONLY because they don't have a helmet on? I understand it's YOUR ride, but last I looked your not thier parent or God. Please Explain??

2)...I would like to know what you THINK you can do if they decide to show without a helmet? This is a FREE Country and they can ride/follow where they so choose. Please Explain??

Last I looked this was a No Helmet State, And America is a FREEDOM CHOICE COUNTRY (for the most part )

I'm not looking to start Drama, but if you think I am it is YOUR opinion and I respect that.

So please without flaming people so this doesn't get closed PLEASE EXPLAIN to the above questions. Also PLEASE do not respond to others opinions only explain yours

Thanks for your opinions
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post #2 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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post #3 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHeYeNNe
1)...I am just wondering what gives you the right to tell someone they can not show ONLY because they don't have a helmet on? I understand it's YOUR ride, but last I looked your not thier parent or God. Please Explain??
I can't comment on this directly as I haven't done such, but the best explanation I can give is:

People are trying to encourage best-practice. As someone said... so if people see a group of 12+ bikes all with gear they don't think "Damn Sportbikes" maybe they look at the group riding safe and say "That's cool"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHeYeNNe
2)...I would like to know what you THINK you can do if they decide to show without a helmet? This is a FREE Country and they can ride/follow where they so choose. Please Explain??
I don't think people can do anything directly, unless the group makes that rider feel unwelcome... but mass chaos could ensue if they choose to make trouble.

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post #4 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:13 AM
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Interesting.

Here's my opinion.

Ride leaders (yourself included) know that there is a significant amount of work that goes into leading a structured ride. You have to plan the route, coordinate with your backmarkers and mid markers, and generally sacrifice your "good time" in the name of keep the group safe.

I personally feel that helmets rule.

If you want to participate in something that I took the time to set up and schedule...then I suggest you play by my rules. This isn't a democracy.

If you want to be billybadass and follow along in your flipflops that's your right. You'll be behind my backmarker though, and if you squid around just to be a pain in the ass...that's your right too.

Put any members of my ride in any kind of danger though (real or perceived) and I'm pretty sure things would get ugly fast.

I pride my rides on being safe. I think helmets help people be safe. My ride, my rules.

IMO if you don't like it don't come along. There shouldn't be any drama if the rules are laid out beforehand. We can all read right?

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post #5 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:15 AM
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Well, I would not tell them they can't ride with me. as long as they don't endanger me.

Let me turn it around on you for a sec. You said you will turn them down if they endanger you. How are you going to achive that? please explaine. As you have stated it is a free country.

You can't beat the shit out of them nor you can chain them nor you can stop them from following. So when I was put in that spot were I felt that I was not safe leading because of one or two person that followed me out of the whole group. I let the group deal with them. HOW? Simple. I said I am done and went home leaving everyone were they were standing. was it fear to the group? maybe not, but it is my life and if group has any respect for you they will make sure that if you have problem with one or two they will take care of it. And if they don't have respect for you, do you really want to lead them or ride with them anywhere/anyway?

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post #6 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:15 AM
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I personally think that in light of the excessive # of crashes this season that people don't want to have to wait for someone who raspberried their arm or smacked their dome in a slow speed getoff that could have been harmless with proper gear on....

Actually I think it's more that a group leader doesn't want to lead a group that ends tragically. Non-geared people are certainly more likely to get hurt in an accident, I don't think anyone honestly believes otherwise.

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post #7 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:17 AM
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If I were to organize a group ride, I would put the same stipulation on , not because I am above anyone (lord knows I aint) but I wouldnt want to deal with the guilt involved ( i would feel responsible whether its right or wrong) if someone went down at even 10MPH and cracked their melon open when following me when it could have been much less severe HAD they been wearing a helmet.

I dont care if you wear a helmet or not, but as a leader of a ride I would require it for my own piece of mind. Make sense?

You know I dont look down on non-helmet wearers, just scared for them sometimes because I care.

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post #8 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Everyone For keeping this to YOUR opinion ONLY


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post #9 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:18 AM
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I completely agree with Patrick. He said exactly what I'm thinking.

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post #10 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:18 AM
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What patric said. If I am the leader it is my rules. It is my judgement call if youa re recless or not. I am sacreficing alot for anyone not to respect that.

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post #11 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:24 AM
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My opinion....

1. It is your ride when you set it up. There is enough to worry about with a group this big and people you don't know to create uncertainty about the abilities of others and there motives for the ride. I would ask them to leave with no helmet. It's their choice to wear/not wear one just as it would be the leaders choice to turn them away. Group rides can get dangerous simply from egos flyin'. Alot of people also show up to learn from other riders and have the tendancy to get intimidated and try to keep up or push things in order to learn. It's my opinion the least other riders can do is show up with a helmet if asked to show the leader they respect them and they are at least willing to protect themselves.

2. I can refuse to lead the ride, or go home myself if people won't respect that I ask them to wear a helmet. If they can't respect that then I don't want lead that ride anyway. If they want to ruin it for everyone else at that point, well....who's the [email protected]???? It is a free country after all and I don't have to lead a ride I don't feel comfortable leading.

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post #12 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:32 AM
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I feel that if the person organizing the ride wants to require helmets he should have that choice. I personally would not feel welcome if I wasn't wearing a helmet if it was requested to do so. Why in the [email protected] would I want to attend an event if I didn't feel welcome?

What concerns me most is the utter disregard for the speed limits on these group rides. As the old saying goes, "You can't have yer cake and eat it too.". You either show respect for all the laws or you respect none. Showing people that you can blast through a curve on the Highway only imprints on others that it's ok to do, since the leaders do it. Like it or not, it is making that statement. If you want to get your lean on, a group ride is not the place for it. IMHO.

I guess I'm just getting old and grumpy, but I'd state at the beginning of every ride that you either behave or get lost. I've been on hundreds of rides where nobody goes down and there are no "accidents".

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post #13 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:33 AM
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also,

to the people that say, what happens if they show up without a helmet? if I stated clearly bring a helmet or go home, I have NO problem asking somebody to go home. Just like if somebody was riding above there head, and I thought they were endangering my group, myself, or themselves. I would ask them to go home.

People used to be very specific on the pace of the group ride, and used to explain straight away, weather or not people should join the ride. The term ride your own ride, isn't stressed enough any more.

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post #14 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:34 AM
 
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IMO - I do not think anyone has the right to tell me I have to wear a helmet and to tell me I can not ride with you because I do not have the proper gear on. I am not going to be in a group ride and do anything stupid to endager anyone else. If I go down I am the only one that will be hurt, YES I am being selfish riding with out a lid ( I have a 4 yr/old son) but it is my choice. And I am not dumb enough to put anyone else in danger because of my stupidity.

I was DT Naperville and organized a ride from there out to North Ave and around the area. We left Naperville and was on Washington and one of the guys that was on the ride decides to get into the oncoming traffic lane and do a stand-up wheelie passing the group. Car comes at him and he cuts back into the group about taking ME out. Then his buddy decides to pull one and pass me in my lane. Apparently I was going to slow for there liking.

I pulled the 3 guys I ride with all the time to the side and we bailed out of the ride. I have not problem with someone wearing their gear, I am not going to tell you you can not ride with me. BUT if you do anything to endanger me, forget it I will not ride with you. You are on your own.
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post #15 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchGSX-R
IMO - I do not think anyone has the right to tell me I have to wear a helmet and to tell me I can not ride with you because I do not have the proper gear on. I am not going to be in a group ride and do anything stupid to endager anyone else. If I go down I am the only one that will be hurt, YES I am being selfish riding with out a lid ( I have a 4 yr/old son) but it is my choice. And I am not dumb enough to put anyone else in danger because of my stupidity.
What if you know you're not welcome? Why would you WANT to be there?

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post #16 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:42 AM
 
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If you are setting up a very structured group ride I would not discriminate against those that don't want to wear helmets - they're old enough to know the consequences that will stem from a crash. If they endanger the group they should be asked to leave or ride behind everyone else. Riding in a group takes enough attention without having to worry about some yahoo running into you.

On many of the group rides I set up with friends there is no leader as such - we switch off the lead at every gas stop. Makes for some interesting riding usually.
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post #17 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloRoll
What if you know you're not welcome? Why would you WANT to be there?
Big +1

We all agree that the helmet issue is all about "choice", and respecting people's right to choose. Why wouldn't you extend this respect to someone that chooses to set up a ride requiring helmets? If someone didn't want to wear their lid, why cause drama by showing up and pressing the issue?

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post #18 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchGSX-R
IMO - I do not think anyone has the right to tell me I have to wear a helmet and to tell me I can not ride with you because I do not have the proper gear on. I am not going to be in a group ride and do anything stupid to endager anyone else. If I go down I am the only one that will be hurt, YES I am being selfish riding with out a lid ( I have a 4 yr/old son) but it is my choice. And I am not dumb enough to put anyone else in danger because of my stupidity.

I was DT Naperville and organized a ride from there out to North Ave and around the area. We left Naperville and was on Washington and one of the guys that was on the ride decides to get into the oncoming traffic lane and do a stand-up wheelie passing the group. Car comes at him and he cuts back into the group about taking ME out. Then his buddy decides to pull one and pass me in my lane. Apparently I was going to slow for there liking.

I pulled the 3 guys I ride with all the time to the side and we bailed out of the ride. I have not problem with someone wearing their gear, I am not going to tell you you can not ride with me. BUT if you do anything to endanger me, forget it I will not ride with you. You are on your own.
Mitch,

dude, I have to disagree with you. If it was my ride, it's my rules. If I tell you wear your gear, and you are (no offense intended) to ignorant to follow those rules, you are setting a presidence for my rides. I will ask you to leave.

Also, if you were leading the ride, and the guy wanted to wheelie in oncomming traffic, and then cut you off, the proper thing to do wasn't to split it was to pull over and have words with the guy. I have done it in the past. If they understand, they won't do it again, if they blow you off, you ask them to leave.

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post #19 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloRoll
What concerns me most is the utter disregard for the speed limits on these group rides. As the old saying goes, "You can't have yer cake and eat it too.". You either show respect for all the laws or you respect none. Showing people that you can blast through a curve on the Highway only imprints on others that it's ok to do, since the leaders do it. Like it or not, it is making that statement. If you want to get your lean on, a group ride is not the place for it. IMHO.

I guess I'm just getting old and grumpy, but I'd state at the beginning of every ride that you either behave or get lost. I've been on hundreds of rides where nobody goes down and there are no "accidents".
I would agree with you there. 99% of the time I am very clear that I will not be going over 80 where speed is at least 55.

Also, while not so on topic, but I am sure big brother is watching and taking note.

It is very imparative that everyone uses their brakes to let others know they are slowing down more then 5mph. Why would you not tap your brakes? Or do you like people ramming your ass. perfect apportunity to learn your rear brake and use it. How do you think people behind you know that you are slowing down if you do not tap your brakes?

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post #20 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:52 AM
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This isn't an issue of discrimination, it's a matter of respect. Show no respect, get no respect. Respect the organizer. Simple as that. If you have an issue with helmets, that's OK. Just take a pass on the ride or gear up. I'm sure some here can attest that I understand.

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post #21 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:55 AM
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Mitch, you are grown man and all. But are you trying to tell us that if you go down we should not assist you because you knew what you were doing? It is very ignorant on your side to think that just because you did not pull anyone with you, you had no effect on others. Just read some of the posts that people had after we had people die.

I am a first aid certified along with some other stuff and it would be very unethical for me to ignore you on the side of the road, but I would have to question myself if I see any blood specially on your unprotected areas if I want to touch it. not because I have bad stomach, but because I have no idea what am I going to get by touching your blood unprotected. So, by wearing protective gear, gloves, helmet, jacket, pants, boots, you are assuring your self that you will get first aid quicker then not. Treating close wounds are so much cleaner and easier.

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post #22 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 10:55 AM
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I remember back in the days when I started this site years ago. I didnt always wear a helmet on the busa. But if I was on a group ride, I did. It was out of respect for the others I was riding with.




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post #23 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:02 AM
 
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It's probably for the same reason you can't wear jeans at a nightclub even though the place is dark and noone will notice what you're wearing.
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post #24 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHeYeNNe

Last I looked this was a No Helmet State, And America is a FREEDOM CHOICE COUNTRY (for the most part )
I think you just answered your own question? Just as people have the right not to wear gear.... the person organizing a group ride has the right not to ride with you.

Obviously, nobody can force someone not to follow the group, but surely it's reasonable to post "no helmet, no show" to discourage people or to set the mindset of what type of ride it is.

What they CAN do is point and laugh and make everyone throw feces at them until they cry like a baby and leave. Consider yourselves WARNED!!!!


Besides, I've read about enough people going down this year to realize I would rather not have to deal with the sight of someones fucking brain matter on top of a crash.

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post #25 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:06 AM
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All I will say is this, I stopped doing group rides two years ago because of the general lack of respect for the group that I got tired of preaching about. If four people in one group going down is not reason enough to understand a simple request from the ride organizers, there is simply nothing anyone can do to explain it to you.

Dave
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post #26 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:15 AM
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Location: Think corn and pigs. Lots and lots of corn and pigs.
Posts: 8,030
Location: Think corn and pigs. Lots and lots of corn and pigs.
Sportbike: A Big Blue One, a threesome of Sexy Red Ones - and a Happy Yellow One!
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How you found us: I was looking for Jimmy Choo's in my shoe closet.
           
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It's all about respect. Respect for others, if not yourself. SloRoll said it best.

Why would you want to go where you were not wanted?

Kim
CCS AM #815 - the cute, fuzzy, yellow, spoiled-rotten half of Team Duc Tape!
I break stuff
Duck, duck, duck, GUZ!
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post #27 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:19 AM
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admitidly, Im staying away from group rides because of the crashfest this year. I cant believe some of you are so casual about a crash, and accepting the fact that you crashed. Its like just another day at the office. Youre lucky to be alive folks.

You people that have never put together a group ride like the F4T or my JDRF ride or any of the other really well planned out rides have NO IDEA how much work and headaches go into getting them to run smoothly.

Youre damn right I think its the PRIVILEDGE of the group organizer to ask someone to come out another time if he/shes not wearing a helmet or for any other reason they see fit.

Youre a guest in their ride. Not your ride

Mike

When the tailgate drops..the bullshit stops
Hunt ethically - Hunt with a trained Retriever !
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post #28 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:19 AM

 
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My opinion only.
I don't go on group rides anymore because of the general lack of respect for fellow riders. The few times I've gone with more than 3 people there have been very risky moves made by 1 or more. Traffic weaving, uncontrolled positioning within the group, stunting, lane sharing and splitting, etc. I don't feel safe in those situations so I don't participate.
Gear or not does not seem to matter from my experience. Yes, I do like to blast at times. Times of my choice. Traffic negotiating when I beleive it to be safe. I don't want to be near stunters while on a ride. I'll watch them at a show. I don't have a desire to pickup the broken pieces of my friends or their equipement. I do that at the track and it is very heart wrenching.
The street is not the place to learn how to ride skillfully. Tracks across the country allow that. And when on those tracks, you have to ride with rules.
Don't misunderstand what I've said. I have broken traffic laws. No goody two shoes here. Just don't want to be around others when that spirit moves me. If I screw up, I really don't want someone else to have to pay for it whether it be physical or mental.
Get hit by someone out of control. It sucks. Watch your own kid suffer injuries for weeks. It sucks some more. Watch friends you respect go down and lay there out until the medical team arrives. It sucks reallly bad. And yes, the death of friends is the final straw. I don't care to be there for that.
So, I'll ride alone.

CCS race official
sold the track bike
too slow to ride

"Repairs end December 31. 2011."

OK, it was a tough day.....back open again!!!
Bring me your broken down machines.

Butch @ 630-777-0273

Ytrap #819, forever in my prayers.
Arch, this Bud is for you..
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post #29 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:40 AM
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well 1st off i am pretty sleepy had a long night.

i can not put all my thoughts into words right now but i can try to do a few.


alot of people look up to the group ride leaders, mainly newbies some of these newbies cant ride for shit yet, lets be honest.

we all have an ego and as such we all hide some fear by trying to be accepted as we can ride too and i can keep up with you.

there has only been a handfull of people i have meet from this club that said right off the bat and proven it, that they were slower cause they were new and they would do what it took to be safe and to learn to ride better as time goes on and etc.

and they have.


the other sum of hundreds and all the new members starting up with us the circle start EVERY year with a fresh batch of new riders.


i think i said it best in the group ride section about group rides.


RIDE FOR THE GROUP, NOT YOURSELF.

if there is 1 thing i am trying to do when i put on a group ride is make it as safe as i can while exposing ourselfs to a shit load of danger. its not dumb to try to prevent harm, its dumb to know it can happen without taking steps to prevent it.


helmets, riding safe withien the speed limits is only such a small fraction of taking the right steps to help another rider have a great time on a group ride.

if some of us want to step up as leaders or simply someone who is trying to help another in our club without taking the stand and adding some peer pressure to get to some of the others while they get heat for it...then i dont know.

i rather be made fun of, i rather be called an asshole, but to those handfull of people the amount of others that i help turn into good safe riders that can learn at there own pace threw the years then that WELL worth it to me.



sometimes i think people think the wrong way when it comes to group rides.

for all i care go NAKED by yourself speeding down the road if you want...i can respect that, and hell ill even add a R.I.P to your death thread.


but what i care about is the mass amounts of people wanting to share the road together, and having fun and making friendships and lending a hand when it is so needed by someone with alittle more experance then themselfs.



experance is what some people are trying to pass down not i am holyer then you or mighter then you. its experance they have seen something or done something or witness something that they threw time have learned and want to pass on and make it known and sometimes take heat for cause of there passion to help some newbie or experanced rider realize something they never dealt with yet.


i just simple wish if i can do something around here in a club that i started i can get just 1 thing in the minds of everyone. i dont ask or try to get everything i am just trying to get 1 thing to work.



in a group ride, ride for the group not yourself.


which i mean by that is to care for your fellow biker, insure what saftey you can for them on the road, to watch for any threats that might get them hurt along the way, to make it to the next stop so you and them can smile and laugh about something you saw or something they were thinking about.
cause if everyone did that the whole group your riding with showed that cared about your saftey and how much it meant for you to share the road with them.


well thats enough from me right now.


"and no i didnt spell check"



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post #30 of 80 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 11:46 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Illinois (Joliet)
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Location: Illinois (Joliet)
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How you found us: CLSB DECAL
           
Great segway for the reason , what I believe to be the real issue............

Why do we do group rides?

I thought to get together and ride with friends and have a starting point and ending point, to enjoy each others time and see some beautiful country side or ride some nice elavation changes and curved roads.

I too have stayed away from the group rides, and have been doing my own little versions of rides on alot of the routes that "KEN" has taken us on. The JDRF ride showed me a better way to enjoy a large group ride..

I am just looking forward to taking Ken's leader class ride/seminar to sharpen skills and get a better understanding of what we as a group are looking for as far as rides....

Groups rides need to have Helmets as a Standing Rule, Period! Each of us myself included can do want we want any other times as "It is our choice and will effect only ourselves at that time"

If we choose to be a part of the group ride then you must take on a different mindset, one that has the others surrounding you in mind..

So, I say take the leaders course to find out what the expectations are "OLD SCHOOL" because, when the leader ( splits traffice, wheelies, lane shares etc. it send s a signal to the others that it is ok ) we all must think for ourselves but, we cant send mixed signals. This ride you need Helmets , but I am not wearing one, Pace of ride moderate and you loose half the pack by the first exit?

Back to real question? Why do we do group rides?

What do we look to get out of it? Not a race.
Like to say great posts to (Slowroll, 2weel, butchf, KBOLSEN, underdog, moto178, busadave, cougar8000, sticky, kegger, chills, HDTONY, Ken)

***Ashwin RIP Brotha you will be missed***




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Life's Journey Is Not To Arrive At The Grave Safely In A Well Preserved Body, But Rather To Skid In Sideways, Totally Worn Out, Shouting "HOLY SHIT... What A Ride!"

All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never under estimate your opponent (mentality). Expect the unexpected (could work out in your favor). Two, take it outside(or to a table). Never start anything inside the Bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.



Turning Shit into Sugar!!

Last edited by SmokinJohn; 09-19-2005 at 11:48 AM.
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