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post #1 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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How Taxing the Wealthy Works....

Food for thought
This is a very understandable explanation, I thought it might make for some interesting discussion.

AN EXPLANATION OF TAX CUTS.

Sometimes politicians, journalists and others exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and it is just accepted to be fact, without questioning it.
But what does that really mean?


Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, the following might help.


Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100.


If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:


The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.


The fifth would pay $1.


The sixth would pay $3.


The seventh would pay $7


The eighth would pay $12.


The ninth would pay $18.


The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.


So, that's what they decided to do.


The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.


"Since you are all such good customer," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.


The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected.
They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys, girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being weathy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.


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post #2 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:30 AM
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Yep!

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post #3 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:41 AM
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*cough*

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post #4 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
*cough*

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~davidk/


...and life isn't 'fair' anyways
Doesnt matter WHO wrote it, just that its true.

Now, if I could only be wealthy and walk away from the table............

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post #5 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger
Doesnt matter WHO wrote it, just that its true.

No, it's not true because the underpinning methodology is a dollar figure reduction, then looked at as a percentage.

The reality is the opposite: A percentage reduction, that then translates into a dollar figure reduction.

It's like stroking a cat. One way it seems all nice and tame, the other way it bites you in the ass.

The emotional argument for 'attacking them for being wealthy' is also just a bullsh!t emotional girly argument.

Last time I looked at the nation's budget as a whole, there was no surplus to arrive at a dollar figure to be given back to the taxpayers. Instead, a percentage reduction was arrived at, and the shortfalls in real dollars those eventually equate to are just dealt with wherever the heck they fall in a "tough shit, deal with it" basis...and the rest piles onto the debt.

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post #6 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
No, it's not true because the underpinning methodology is a dollar figure reduction, then looked at as a percentage.

The reality is the opposite: A percentage reduction, that then translates into a dollar figure reduction.

It's like stroking a cat. One way it seems all nice and tame, the other way it bites you in the ass.

The emotional argument for 'attacking them for being wealthy' is also just a bullsh!t emotional girly argument.

Last time I looked at the nation's budget as a whole, there was no surplus to arrive at a dollar figure to be given back to the taxpayers. Instead, a percentage reduction was arrived at, and the shortfalls in real dollars those eventually equate to are just dealt with wherever the heck they fall in a "tough shit, deal with it" basis...and the rest piles onto the debt.
OK.

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post #7 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
No, it's not true because the underpinning methodology is a dollar figure reduction, then looked at as a percentage.

The reality is the opposite: A percentage reduction, that then translates into a dollar figure reduction.

It's like stroking a cat. One way it seems all nice and tame, the other way it bites you in the ass.

The emotional argument for 'attacking them for being wealthy' is also just a bullsh!t emotional girly argument.

Last time I looked at the nation's budget as a whole, there was no surplus to arrive at a dollar figure to be given back to the taxpayers. Instead, a percentage reduction was arrived at, and the shortfalls in real dollars those eventually equate to are just dealt with wherever the heck they fall in a "tough shit, deal with it" basis...and the rest piles onto the debt.

+1

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post #8 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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If memory serves...

The Top 5% of all US wage earners pay more than HALF of all federal taxes.

Top 10% pay 2/3rds

while top 50% pay over 95% of all taxes.

It just cracks me up how people bitch about cuts for the wealthy... how the heck can you make a cut for the bottom 50% and have ANY effect on the economy? Hell, if the bottom 50% paid ZERO taxes, it would only reduce federal income tax revenue by less than 5%.

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post #9 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
If memory serves...

The Top 5% of all US wage earners pay more than HALF of all federal taxes.

Top 10% pay 2/3rds

while top 50% pay over 95% of all taxes.

It just cracks me up how people bitch about cuts for the wealthy... how the heck can you make a cut for the bottom 50% and have ANY effect on the economy? Hell, if the bottom 50% paid ZERO taxes, it would only reduce federal income tax revenue by less than 5%.

If memory serves, the bulk of the tax revenue (income taxes) comes from the $20,000 - $500,000 crowd, and more tightly grouped, the 50K-500K crowd
Here's the excel spreadsheet from the IRS site, by the way:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/03in35tr.xls

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post #10 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Only The Rich Pay Taxes
Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.03% of Income Taxes
October 10, 2003

There is new data for 2001. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% fell to 33.89% from 37.42% in 2000. This is mainly because their income share (not just wages) fell from 20.81% to 17.53%. However, their average tax rate actually rose slightly from 27.45% to 27.50%.



*Data covers calendar year 2001, not fiscal year 2001 - and includes all income, not just wages, excluding Social Security

This proves that it was not the tax cut that caused revenues from the rich to fall, but the recession and the stock market crash. In other words, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you are going to benefit from the rich paying more taxes, due to progressivity, on the upside, you are going to lose more revenue from these people on the downside. This is a good argument for reducing progressivity.

Think of it this way: less than four dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999. (The top 1% earned $293,000-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives - and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

Top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes (Down from 2000 figure: 56.47%). The top 10% pay 64.89% (Down from 2000 figure: 67.33%). The top 25% pay 82.9% (Down from 2000 figure: 84.01%). The top 50% pay 96.03% (Down from 2000 figure: 96.09%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.97% of all income taxes. The top 1% is paying more than ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 17.53 (2000: 20.81%) of all income. The top 5% earns 31.99 (2000: 35.30%). The top 10% earns 43.11% (2000: 46.01%); the top 25% earns 65.23% (2000: 67.15%), and the top 50% earns 86.19% (2000: 87.01%) of all the income.

The Rich Earned Their Dough, They Didn't Inherit It (Except Ted Kennedy)

The bottom 50% is paying a tiny bit of the taxes, so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people to whom the Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.

I had a conversation with a woman who identified herself as Misty on Wednesday. She claimed to be an accountant, yet she seemed unaware of the Alternative Minimum Tax, which now ensures that everyone pays some taxes. AP reports that the AMT, "designed in 1969 to ensure 155 wealthy people paid some tax," will hit "about 2.6 million of us this year and 36 million by 2010." That's because the tax isn't indexed for inflation! If your salary today would've made you mega-rich in '69, that's how you're taxed.

Misty tried the old line that all wealth is inherited. Not true. John Weicher, as a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in his February 13, 1997 Washington Post Op-Ed, "Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking at the Fortune 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came from a standing start, while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation." What's happening here is not that "the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer." The numbers prove it.

I have made an executive decision as the owner and ultimate editor of this website that this table and these numbers stay on this website forever - or until next year's numbers come out. In order to get these facts, you have to see them each and every day. This story, along with a link to the IRS chart, will stay somewhere on the RushLimbaugh.com homepage so everyone can see and find these numbers at any time. It's crucial that people get this, so please, share it with a friend now!

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/men...xes.guest.html

Same data source at the bottom of the article are the link sto the supporting IRS Excel Tax Sheets.

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post #11 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:19 AM
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Does anyone here fit into this catagory?

If not then this is a moot argument.

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post #12 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:21 AM
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The air is definitely quite thin is this thread.

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post #13 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:32 AM
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Hmm.. From the IRS link I provided that sampled 2003 tax returns, we can compute the % of the 101 million returns sampled where the tax payers earned over 500K to be roughly only 536,200 tax payers (using their sample).

A little quick math shows that to be about 1/2% of the taxpayers being 'Rich' (defined as income over $500K).

Who's numbers should we trust? A Drug taking political pundit with an agenda from an article virtually 3 years old using tax data that is over 5 years old, or the actual tax agency of the Federal Govt.

Hmm, decisions decisions...

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post #14 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:32 AM
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I pay way too much in income taxes. I'm not rich or wealthy.

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post #15 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin
Does anyone here fit into this catagory?
If not then this is a moot argument.
Yes, I had 6 figure tax bills in the past.

Sh!t happens.

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post #16 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter T
I pay way too much in income taxes. I'm not rich or wealthy.
I agree.. I'd love a simpler solution:

10% to God
10% to Government (who cares, maybe even 15%!)

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post #17 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:41 AM
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Further breaking down the IRS data from 2003:

Tax collected from sampled data: 780.3 billion
"Rich" people paid: 194.5 billion

% of income taxes collected paid by "rich" people = 25%

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post #18 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
I agree.. I'd love a simpler solution:

10% to God
10% to Government (who cares, maybe even 15%!)

The person who makes 10K a year, that 10% means the difference between eating or going hungry.

The person making a million a year, that 10% does not mean starving or eating.

Also, the person making 1 million a year has more they need PROTECTED from things like police/fire/national defense, etc than the person with only 10K income.

Graduated tax rates are like insurance premiums. The more you have to protect, the more you pay.

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post #19 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
The person who makes 10K a year, that 10% means the difference between eating or going hungry.

The person making a million a year, that 10% does not mean starving or eating.

Also, the person making 1 million a year has more they need PROTECTED from things like police/fire/national defense, etc than the person with only 10K income.

Graduated tax rates are like insurance premiums. The more you have to protect, the more you pay.
Dont worry Arch, I understand.

The people that pay less in Taxes as a percentage of their income are better than me so they are entitled to pay less.

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post #20 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Actually, flat taxes operate off of a base income, and then all income above that amount is applicable to the flat tax. This allows the low income to eat.

Flat tax is use in many areas throughout the world, lowering legal and accounting costs, simplifying tax code and reducing filing hours required.

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post #21 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
Actually, flat taxes operate off of a base income, and then all income above that amount is applicable to the flat tax. This allows the low income to eat.

Flat tax is use in many areas throughout the world, lowering legal and accounting costs, simplifying tax code and reducing filing hours required.
And the actual revenue collected versus the budgetary expenditure looks like what ? :>

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post #22 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:02 AM
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Let's pull back to the original post for a moment:

"And that, boys, girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being weathy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier."

Newsflash: They already are overseas and with tax cuts and 'globalization' it's the same underpinning of chasing the dollar.

Tax cuts do not keep jobs here. Labor costs and regulatory stuff being what they are, anything that can move overseas HAS/IS/WILL and will continue to do so with or without tax cuts.

Offshoring of wealth HAS/IS/WILL continue as it always has, tax cuts or none. The only thing reducing the tax revenue does is make a bigger hole in the ground financially.

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Last edited by Arch; 06-13-2006 at 11:05 AM.
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post #23 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:04 AM
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Good article. Progressive tax rates suck!
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post #24 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:22 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
And the actual revenue collected versus the budgetary expenditure looks like what ? :>
It seems to me you are promoting a system of identification of the population so we can differentiate between income levels for all situations and charge people accordingly to their ability to pay that day.
Kind of like entering the tollway with a special IPASS that identifies you at an income level to determine how much, if any you should pay for the toll that day. And of course those pretty bushes have to be in the budget, so the wealthy must pay for them cause the less fortunate don't have the ability.
Furthermore, I guess if I make poor financial decisions causing my income to be stretched beyond its own limit somebody who has their finances in order should pay my share.
Your premise that budgetary expenditures are justifiable, necessary, and correct just doesn't hold water. It is beyond logic to think that the budgets are mearly for the betterment of our people as a whole. You have shown enough intellegence not to be fooled by that rediculous thought. More budgetary expenditures have a root in re-election of politicians than any betterment of society.

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post #25 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butchf
It seems to me you are promoting a system of identification of the population so we can differentiate between income levels for all situations and charge people accordingly to their ability to pay that day.
Kind of like entering the tollway with a special IPASS that identifies you at an income level to determine how much, if any you should pay for the toll that day. And of course those pretty bushes have to be in the budget, so the wealthy must pay for them cause the less fortunate don't have the ability.
Furthermore, I guess if I make poor financial decisions causing my income to be stretched beyond its own limit somebody who has their finances in order should pay my share.
Your premise that budgetary expenditures are justifiable, necessary, and correct just doesn't hold water. It is beyond logic to think that the budgets are mearly for the betterment of our people as a whole. You have shown enough intellegence not to be fooled by that rediculous thought. More budgetary expenditures have a root in re-election of politicians than any betterment of society.
No, I don't support that the expenditures are all justified, necessary or correct. This was about the INCOME side of the coin.

If you'd like to go down the expenditure side of the discussion, I'm certainly game there.

I have a laundry list of shit that I think should be whacked and I agree with you almost all of it is rooted in "what keeps me in power".

See, the bitch of it is that the "what keeps me in power" crowd attacks the income side of the coin to appease the people who donate the most to them while screwing the people who's lives can and do benefit from certain social services all while keeping on the books pork-barrel home-town 'projects' that are milk-bones tossed back to the local voters to keep them in power.

Everyone Exaggerates

We're being taken for a ride... agaaaaaaain.....


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Last edited by Arch; 06-13-2006 at 11:29 AM.
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post #26 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:31 AM
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I move to:
Abolish all income taxes.
Establish usage taxes.
If you earn and save, you make out.
If you have $ to burn, you pay.
Re-establish estate and gift taxes for the larger estates on a rational and reasonable basis. (25% to 35% max for estates over $5,000,000 as adjusted for inflation.) Just because spoiled rotten rich brats should learn to stand on their own 2 feet and I personally don't give a crap if they get $4,000,000 vs. $5,000,000 or $20,000,000 vs. $25,000,000. Plus, the economy really needs the $ to pay for GW's excesses.

There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe. Nothing remains in its original state, each day, each hour, each moment, there is change. Change is the essence of life. Embrace change as you do life. To fight change is to live in the past.
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post #27 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:34 AM
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The problem with 'usage' taxes will be the language of loopholes. What defines "new" versus "used" versus "consumption"

Everyone Exaggerates

We're being taken for a ride... agaaaaaaain.....


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post #28 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Runner
I move to:
Abolish all income taxes.
Establish usage taxes.
If you earn and save, you make out.
If you have $ to burn, you pay.
Fukin A right!

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #29 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:54 AM
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Poor people who complain about taxes need to find something else to complain about.
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post #30 of 193 (permalink) Old 06-13-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryDallas
Poor people who complain about taxes need to find something else to complain about.
Foodstamps?

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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