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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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What are the laws regarding self defense in IL? I just had a minor altercation in the ACE hardware parking lot. A guy had pulled in just before us and left his dog in the car with it turned off and the windows rolled up. We went in and came out (approx. 20 minutes) and the car was still there. I called 911 and the police dispatched a car. We waited.

Another 5 minutes passed with no cop and the guy finally came out (about 30min total). I drove up to him and very politely even using the word "sir", let him know that I notified the police for animal abuse and that leaving your dog in a sealed car for even 5 minutes in 102 degree weather is abuse. He said, "Ok, now tone it down a notch and SCRAM". I then informed him that he's going to kill his dog if he keeps doing that. The guy started screaming and told me to get out of the car, so I obliged and got out. He walked around my car and got in my face.

Now I've only been in martial arts for a little over a month but suprisingly I squared up to him immediately and mentally highlighted about 4 different available strikes. The guy continued to walk at me and walked me about halfway around the car all the while I was warning him to back off. At that point I think his common sense took over and he stopped. He was about 2 steps from getting layed out. He swore at me some more and got in his car and sped away. This guy was in his mid 50s at least.

I was waiting for him to swing first because I figured if I attacked him I could be held accountable as I had a means of escaping (turn around and run). Am I right in thinking this or is him walking me around my car and threatening me enough for me to attack in fear of being attacked? I plan to bring this up to the instructor at my next class but I want to get the opinion from the CLSB coppers also.

Animal abuse pisses me off more than human on human abuse. Pets are helpless and they have to depend on assholes like that to survive. I gave the dispatcher all the vehicle information including plate number and my information but I'm assuming nothing will come of it, I'd gladly testify against that prick.
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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:21 PM
 
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You pull a kungfu..he pulls a Glock. Unless its a situation that is a direct threat to you or your family I would walk away. Just my 2 cenx.
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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:25 PM
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First rule of fighting retards on the street: Hit first and hit hard.

Oh and da danga da danga da dang. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WlT9...h=bas%20rutten

Gonna bounce his head on the table, oh 10x or something.

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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cam_neely_8
You pull a kungfu..he pulls a Glock. Unless its a situation that is a direct threat to you or your family I would walk away. Just my 2 cenx.

Any of the strikes I would have initiated would have incapacitated him. We are tought to strike first, strike often, and strike hard. I know that sounds cocky but if you were there I guess you'd understand. I would have controlled the situation.
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:35 PM
 
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This is what I found so maybe that would answer the original question you asked.

http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/Laws.htm
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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cam_neely_8
You pull a kungfu..he pulls a Glock. Unless its a situation that is a direct threat to you or your family I would walk away. Just my 2 cenx.
I tend to agree with this, but the strike hard and strike first makes sense. Avoid a fight as much as you can, but if you cannot diffuse the situation and you're worried about being injured, a quick snap kick to the knee will disable anone. Alternatively a strike to the throat followed by a few jabs will leave the person stunned so you can get away.

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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF
Any of the strikes I would have initiated would have incapacitated him. We are tought to strike first, strike often, and strike hard. I know that sounds cocky but if you were there I guess you'd understand. I would have controlled the situation.
I really doubt it. Self defense classes put way too much confidence in people. Trying not to be a dickhead here, but you never know who you're fighting. Just one lucky shot to your jaw and you could be out. I think you did the right thing though, animal cruelty makes me nuts and I would have said something also.
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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 03:55 PM
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Whether or not something is "justifiable self defense" rests in the hands of the judge and jury. Not worth the risk if you ask me. People are equal parts stupid and crazy. I don't need the drama.

On the other hand - I'd have been pissed about the dog as well. I'd have hung around and then "accidentally" bumped into the window with a hammer. Win win.

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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:06 PM
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Here's a situation that made the news a few years back...

http://www.courttv.com/trials/junta/verdict_ctv.html


Here's more to the story if anyone is interested...

http://www.courttv.com/trials/junta/index.html

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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:14 PM
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Beating someone to death under the guise of "self defense" is a little different than giving someone a decent crack to make them stop.
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimzx9r
Beating someone to death under the guise of "self defense" is a little different than giving someone a decent crack to make them stop.
Read the whole article, he claims to have only thrown three unbalanced punches.

If you hit someone hard and in the right place, they can die, one punch can do it.

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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:21 PM
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In Cook county at least it is the first to the police station to file the report that wins so to speak.

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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. D
Read the whole article, he claims to have only thrown three unbalanced punches.

If you hit someone hard and in the right place, they can die, one punch can do it.
I did read it, and I was familiar with the story before you brought it up. Those 3 punches were his defense, yet all the witnesses said he pounded away at the guy over and over again.
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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF

Now I've only been in martial arts for a little over a month .
Don't mean to be cocky, but if you continue to practice, in a few years you will see this situation entirely different. I will bet you money ($1.00 is all I got today ) with more training you have obtained, the more you will try to defuse the fight.
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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I was never looking for a fight, merely letting him know (if he didnt already) that you can easily kill your dog that way. Having extensive medical knowledge on heat injury that dog could die in under 30 minutes. If I was looking for a fight I wouldn't have let him back me around my car.

With him walking at me and being within 2' of me with his arms at his sides, feet together and his face stuck out yelling there's plently of things I could have done to disable him.

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post #16 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimzx9r
I really doubt it. Self defense classes put way too much confidence in people. Trying not to be a dickhead here, but you never know who you're fighting. Just one lucky shot to your jaw and you could be out. I think you did the right thing though, animal cruelty makes me nuts and I would have said something also.

In my last post I clarified more on his body positioning... I'm not studying at a cheesy self defense place either lol.
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post #17 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 05:47 PM
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nick, dude.

it comes down to the jury if it is a BAD beating.

but here it is in short form in your case.


20 somthing year old guy?

vs

50 year old guy


you told the man in a polite way your opinion, he didnt like and it didnt like the way you were telling him so he wanted to scare you.
YOU GOT OUT THE CAR instead of driving away.

that alone weither you got your ass beat down but more so the other way.

you my friend will serve a few days, and now have a battery charge which will fuck you for the rest of your life.


thats this case in law and how a jury would see it, or a cop or the judge simple fileing the case agasint you.



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post #18 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge
Don't mean to be cocky, but if you continue to practice, in a few years you will see this situation entirely different. I will bet you money ($1.00 is all I got today ) with more training you have obtained, the more you will try to defuse the fight.
perhaps I should clarify as well, Nick wasn't looking for a fight because during this whole "altercation" he continued eating his cookie dough ice cream sandwhich

The guy was a big prick. He left that dog in the car for about 30 minutes with not even one cracked window and parked in direct sunlight. Nick did raise his voice a little when he was talking to him but that's because he was yelling over me out a window, he just told the guy that he needs to roll the windows down at least and also that his dog could die. The guy was a total bastard. When he said get out of the car Nick laughed and said ok but I'm not wasting my cookie dough sammich on you. He made it clear that he didn't want to get into a fight but the guy kept boasting out his chest and getting right in Nick's face so Nick put his hand out and straightened his arm to push him back a little all while eating his ice cream sandwhich lol. The guy felt stupid because he was screaming and getting out of control while Nick just stood there eating his ice cream and there was a parking lot full of witnesses so he got back in his car swearing every last step of the way. I really hope the cops at least send him a letter or something!!! Animal abuse (in any form) makes me upset!!!
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post #19 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:16 PM
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what you will need to do is call what ever animal cops they have in that area, and press charges agasint him for doing it.

a few court dates, and a few hours here and there, in the end he will get fined.

no doubt the guy was an ass, do doubt any guy like getting spoken too the way he did.

simple but true, next time, CLOCK HIM the fuck out right there and then and RUN!


or wait till the cops show up and press charges for for the dog.

he screaming at you is no law breaker.

but once nick got out the car he in turn heated it up, and could have provoked a fight, if the guy hit nick 1st and nick defended himself and this 50 year old guy wants to sue him "and he will" nick will loose in civil court.



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post #20 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:38 PM
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Should have stayed in the car, if a squad would have rolled up they would have seen who the agressor was instantly.

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post #21 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:53 PM
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One of the important people in my life once said that "the key to making life easy is making good decisions." In order to make good decisions, you have to look as far into the future as possible and extrapolate the outcome as best you can from there. Don't let shortsightedness, false ideals, and the ulterior motives of others cloud your judgement and prevent you from making good decisions.

"includes 10 used-car dealers or auto repair shops, 11 liquor stores and bars--two of which advertise lingerie fashion shows and a third billed as a "gentlemen's club"--three cut-rate motels and one trailer park. The squat, brick municipal building is next to a currency exchange and a few steps from an adult video store. The bars open at 10 a.m. and close at 6:30 a.m."

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post #22 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF
I'm not studying at a cheesy self defense place either lol.
I sure hope not, it just sounded that way with you picking out targets to disable.

I like takedowns and slams so I never actually have to "hit" anybody.
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post #23 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteSeatEnvy
One of the important people in my life once said that "the key to making life easy is making good decisions. In order to make good decisions, you have to look as far into the future as possible and extrapolate the outcome as best you can from there. Don't let shortsightedness, false ideals, and the ulterior motives of others cloud your judgement and prevent you from making good decisions."

that is one of the smartest things i have ever heard you repeat.



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post #24 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
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that is one of the smartest things i have ever heard you repeat.
lmao, he has mad quote skills.
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post #25 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
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that is one of the smartest things i have ever heard you repeat.

Yeah, I usually only use that bulshit on the ladies. lol

"includes 10 used-car dealers or auto repair shops, 11 liquor stores and bars--two of which advertise lingerie fashion shows and a third billed as a "gentlemen's club"--three cut-rate motels and one trailer park. The squat, brick municipal building is next to a currency exchange and a few steps from an adult video store. The bars open at 10 a.m. and close at 6:30 a.m."

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post #26 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
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YOU GOT OUT THE CAR instead of driving away.
IMHO

It amazes me how some people treat their pets. No sense at all.
I would have called 911 as well.
As far as if it would have come down to blows....
Getting out of the car and confronting him may have been a determining factor as to who was right or wrong.
Someone would have asked, "Why get out and confront the guy?"
On the other hand, if you would have stayed in your car and he came over and took a swing.....well we all know the answer to that!

50 yr old = lights out

"The first attempt is always the most difficult."

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post #27 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickIF
I was never looking for a fight, merely letting him know (if he didnt already) that you can easily kill your dog that way. Having extensive medical knowledge on heat injury that dog could die in under 30 minutes. If I was looking for a fight I wouldn't have let him back me around my car.

With him walking at me and being within 2' of me with his arms at his sides, feet together and his face stuck out yelling there's plently of things I could have done to disable him.
You got out of the car. You were looking for a fight. I probably would have done the same thing, nut I think you are sounding cocky after a "little" training and you were ready to fight this scumbag. Also like mentioned earlier, guns are seldom if ever beat by hands, you are not Chuck Norris. Be careful and defend yourself, dont get over confident. I am not trying to criticize but I think you are trying to sound a little too goody goody when you helped to throw gas on this guy's fire by accepting the invitation to get out of your vehicle. And I agree with Oddy, 20 something vs 50 something, who would you feel sorry for??? Road rage and guns is really getting scary nowadays, just be careful, thats is all.

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post #28 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meech
perhaps I should clarify as well, Nick wasn't looking for a fight because during this whole "altercation" he continued eating his cookie dough ice cream sandwhich
I am fully aware of Nick's intention. The reason I said what I said is from a Martial Artist point of view. Nick only has been to training for couple months and can already pointed out numerous strike points with a quick glance of the oppenant. Now just imagine how destrtuctive Nick can become after few more months of training. Then he will realize that himself and will defuse or walk away as many fights/confrontations as he can.
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post #29 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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some of you guys are funny. Whenever I post anything here I end up defending myself. As far as 20 vs 50 I know a couple worthless waste of life 50 year olds. Were as I am 21 and am a public servant (ff/paramedic) who gives back to the community.

As far as getting out of the car. His car was parked facing south, we were next to him facing north. Michelle was driving i was in the pass. seat. When he flipped out he walked from his trunk towards michelles window... by stepping out of the car I took him away from michelle. If this guy flipped out for telling him to take better care of his dog what would stop him from punching michelle in the face. It might have been poor planning on our part for placing our car where it was but then again we didn't expect the guy to flip out.
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post #30 of 68 (permalink) Old 07-15-2006, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilltopdawg33
You got out of the car. You were looking for a fight. I probably would have done the same thing, nut I think you are sounding cocky after a "little" training and you were ready to fight this scumbag.
dude are you kidding me? He was an old man... probably closer to 60 then 50. Training or no training it would have been a one sided fight. I don't have anything to prove with my training and I get to take all my frustrations out at least 3 times a week at class. By stating what I did about training I mean I didn't snap in a fit of rage like I used to. I stepped back and assessed the situation. Mentally noting if this guy attacks me with his currnet posture his knees, face, and throat are wide open. I also looked at his body position and noted where a strike is most likely going to come from if he does strike.

Quote:
Also like mentioned earlier, guns are seldom if ever beat by hands, you are not Chuck Norris. Be careful and defend yourself, dont get over confident. I am not trying to criticize but I think you are trying to sound a little too goody goody when you helped to throw gas on this guy's fire by accepting the invitation to get out of your vehicle. And I agree with Oddy, 20 something vs 50 something, who would you feel sorry for??? Road rage and guns is really getting scary nowadays, just be careful, thats is all.
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