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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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performance vehicle lawsuit

This incident should be of interest to those who enjoy bikes too. How long until this happens with the 1k's. Or next generation 1k's traction control did not work properly and so and so is dead/injured/ crippled etc...



http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm

some points from a car friend

1) Rich person buys the fastest and most expensive car that they can afford and stuffs it.

2) Greedy survivor(s) and lawyers team up to ream anyone who ever looked at the car -- as if that will make up for the death of their loved one. It's not like money made them happy in the first place, and now they want to take more away from someone else. Sure sounds like good money chasing bad to me.

3) The rest of us will have our insurance go up, and our hobby become unaffordable as a result of all the litigation.

At the end of the day, no-one's happy. Not the dead people, not their survivors and not most of the reasonable people who used to enjoy Porsches. Ok -- maybe the Lawyers will go home happy, but that's about a perverse as a smiling undertaker.


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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 08:25 AM
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:07 AM
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personal responsabilty.

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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdrash
personal responsabilty.

If you read it and the story is true then you'd see it is truly the flagman's fault if anything. Either way it's a tragedy.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:17 AM
 
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What is the point? Lawsuits are making insurance and the processes surrounding all insurable events, in all segments, astronomically expensive. In some parts of this country, you are unable to even obtain some forms of insurance due to lawsuit abuse.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:23 AM
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The claims all seem legit except the ones agains Porsche. That's where personal responsibility come into play.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:31 AM
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chills
... That's where personal responsibility come into play.

That is the problem, there is no more personal responsibility. Lawyers and government have taken that away.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by blackrose613
That is the problem, there is no more personal responsibility. Lawyers and government have taken that away.

Don't forget doting soccer moms and dads. People are learning at a young age to blame others for their mistakes.

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:43 AM
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:48 AM
 
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The only claim I see having *any* credibility is the fact that the GT driver is liable IF, AND ONLY IF, he didn't tell the dude hopping in the passenger seat that he thought something was wrong with the car.

It's not the flagman's fault, the Ferrari driver slowed unexpectedly, there's no way the flagman could have done anything about that.

If the location of the wall was safe enough for a NASCAR race where millions of dollars are at risk, it's certainly safe enough for a track day.

This lawsuit is rediculous on several fronts, the most offensive of which is the attempt to hold Porsche responsible in some way (unless it's found that there IS an engineering issue with the suspension).
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 09:49 AM
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2. There are design defects with the Carrera GT that make it a poor-handling car, mainly tail-happy.
3. Third: The Carrera GT is too difficult a car to handle at high speeds for the average driver without instruction

Agh, for 2 esp. before traction control fast cars that are FR or MR have been 'tail happy' pretty much, and 3, again personal responsibility, not like the guy needs a special license to go and purchase a sports car

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:01 AM
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EVERYONE who goes and takes thier vehicles onto a track (whether car, truck, bike) ALL KNOW the hazzards and put thier own lives into thier hands..this accident was unavoidable but it hapened...u sign the realse knowing that you are entering a dangerous enviroment...hense, they all knew the risks...hense, end of lawsuit...it sucks they died...but they knew the chances they were taking...

...plus my gf was with me saying "omg slow down, slow down" and I was thinking "Lose annoying squalk box in passenger seat, afford more mods and have less weight in the car and on the back of the bike"...so i dumped her and I'm single again as usual...HERE KITTY KITTY!!!
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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deja vu

Porsche has seen this before. And the Porsche BBS's are buzzing with opinions and some who knew the driver too. Sad story no matter the outcome of this case.

Speed and Power Defects

The McClellan Law Firm has litigated two cases against Porsche involving the Turbo 930, in which the combination of power, turbo-lag and oversteer made the vehicle too difficult to handle for the average driver, without proper warnings and instruction.

The first case, Garrison v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father who was a passenger in a Turbo 930, when the driver lost control on a city street and went into oncoming traffic. The jury awarded $2.5 million, which was upheld on appeal. The 1983 award tied the verdict for the death of Audie Murphy, a war hero and actor, for the largest wrongful death verdict in the state of California. Following the Garrison verdict, Porsche started offering driver's training to the purchasers of its high-performance, turbo-charged vehicles.

The second case, Trent v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father, when the Turbo 930 oversteered and collided with a telephone pole. The case settled for a confidential amount.

from http://www.mcclellanlaw.com/content/section/2/38/

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:19 AM
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I would say that the guy that owened the porsche is at fault for not telling the other guy about the problems. And part of the fault falls on the flag guy for not paying attention to who was on the track. I think that Porsche could easily argue that while their cars are made for fast speeds they are not meant to be railed around a track in a stock configuration. To many people are sue happy these days.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneridin
And part of the fault falls on the flag guy for not paying attention to who was on the track.
Read it again. I don't think it was the flag man's fault. He waved the Ferrari driver to go but he went way to slow. The flag guy then saw the Porsche and tried to stop the Ferrari but the flagman was alread past the window.

It even said that the Ferrari was putting along on the track.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:49 AM
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[email protected]$%in lawyers.

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c5367
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+1000
I'm not sure, but i heard that cessnas are as expensive as they are because of a lot of lawsuits against them before the govnt stepped in. Is that right?

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexraptor
+1000
I'm not sure, but i heard that cessnas are as expensive as they are because of a lot of lawsuits against them before the govnt stepped in. Is that right?
IIRC, that had to do with the de-icers on the wings of certain models used as puddle jumper commuter planes. That was, in fact, a design problem.

(spoken like a true future lawyer, eh? )

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 12:46 PM
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Just because you can afford a car like that doesnt mean you know how to fucking drive it (which a good 80% of the people who own these supercars dont know what the fuck they are doing. More money than talent). As what was said before in the comment section of that site, "If he was having suspension and setup issues, WTF was he out doing 145mph with it?"

Just think, this suit could mean the death of any kind of trackday if they find the club/track/manufacturer liable. The driver lost control. Drivers fault period. Isnt Porsches. More than likely the GT isnt anymore tail happy than the 911CS I drove in 88.
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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More than likely the GT isnt anymore tail happy than the 911CS I drove in 88.
Not tail happy at all but....

A friend up in PACNW (microsoft country) has been on the track in his well modded 930 chasing a few CGT's that come out to play. His take is that the GT has very, very high limits and then a very fine edge between a two wheel drift and a rapid spin outs. Not a easy car to drive very fast. 911's are well known and 911 suspension gurus know how to tune them and drivers have become adept at driving them.

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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5AXIS
Porsche has seen this before. And the Porsche BBS's are buzzing with opinions and some who knew the driver too. Sad story no matter the outcome of this case.

Speed and Power Defects

The McClellan Law Firm has litigated two cases against Porsche involving the Turbo 930, in which the combination of power, turbo-lag and oversteer made the vehicle too difficult to handle for the average driver, without proper warnings and instruction.

The first case, Garrison v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father who was a passenger in a Turbo 930, when the driver lost control on a city street and went into oncoming traffic. The jury awarded $2.5 million, which was upheld on appeal. The 1983 award tied the verdict for the death of Audie Murphy, a war hero and actor, for the largest wrongful death verdict in the state of California. Following the Garrison verdict, Porsche started offering driver's training to the purchasers of its high-performance, turbo-charged vehicles.

The second case, Trent v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father, when the Turbo 930 oversteered and collided with a telephone pole. The case settled for a confidential amount.

from http://www.mcclellanlaw.com/content/section/2/38/

I have seen more than 1 Mustang GT go out of control when someone floors it, and turns the wheel at the same time, at highway speeds.

Same thing with motorcycles. There is plenty of trouble one could get into on a bike, and there is no training to get one.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 05:21 PM
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a carrear gt can become an ill-handling car by simply having the wrong tire pressures. it is a 600+ hp car, of course it takes skill to drive. aryton senna and dale earnhardt were both great drivers but they are gone because racing is dangerous. most ferrari owners drive there cars slowly. corner workers are usually volunteers doing the best thay can. i don't think it was any single person's fault. i was an unfortunate and sad outcome to a bunch of factors out of any one person's control.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 05:45 PM
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I can understand the basis for the lawsuit. Look at a Learjet, fast, expensive, capable of killing you; you need a special license to fly one, a different license than a Cessna 152. In order to get this license, you are trained for hours and hours in theory and hands on application of skills. Cars aren't the same way, one license covers all aspects of cars, regardless of speed or power or handling traits. How about motorcycles, the same license that give you the ability to (legally) ride an EX250 will give you the ability to ride a ZX-14, despite their dramatic differences in performance.

Look at England and other European countries, they require that you start on a scooter for 2 years before being allowed to upgrade to a 500cc bike, this prevents rookies from getting in over their heads (I might be off on the time and engine sizes, but there are class restrictions of some sort). I'm not suggesting that we require new riders to start on a scooter, but to be honest, the DMV skills test could be passed by my grandma if she had a small enough bike, it's just too short and simple to be used to gauge skill. Porsche offers driver training (optional) and BMW and others have something similar, but there is still nothing preventing a 16 year old with a rich irresponsible parent from buying a 911 Turbo, I would argue that this is how people die, whether they're 16 or 55, money and lack of preparation or skill.

If a more in depth licensing program were put into effect, different HP limits for certain ages unless you can show you are capable of handling said power, I feel that there would be lives saved. Even if it saved no one, it would eliminate the basis for lawsuits like this which ruin the fun of skilled drivers/motorcyclists who enjoy our vastly overpowered toys in a semi- responsible but lawsuit free manner.


EDIT: made some analogies easier to understand.

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