Death Of The Electric Car - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Death Of The Electric Car

Has anyone seen this documentary on the EV1? It is running on Starz detailing how GM, Automakers and big oil killed the electric car. The documentary may be slanted but if half of it is true GM is a bunch of shady bastages...

Check it out.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/




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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 08:52 PM
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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I have seen it, political propaganda at it's best (or worst).
I agree but also believe GM purposely killed the project to eliminate CA's new mandate. Seems short sighted as Toyota and Honda take the lead with Hybrids. They can say they wouldn't make money by moving them in to production or there wasn't enough demand. Why destroy cars people are willing to pay good money for?




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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 09:08 PM
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They were kind of a cool idea, there was also an electric S-10 pickup. They'd make sense if you have a relatively short commute, maybe. How much do the batteries cost when they fail? That alone might negate your savings on gas. I don't really think it was some giant conspiracy that killed them though. If the American economy really wanted electric cars, we'd have them.

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 09:14 PM
 
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Downloading the torrent now.
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 09:52 PM
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I thought that it was the short term lease that the EV1 was only available for was part of the reason it died. Also short range, long recharge time didnt help much.

Look at the new Tesla coming out. $125K (last $ I heard) for an electric car. 220 mile range.

Would be nice if they could figure a way to get the battery packs small enough (suitcase size and 50lbs max) that you coul dhave one charging at home while you have the other in the car. Maybe a full size with a 400-500 mile range and 4 hr recharge max time. Make spare batteries under $300. Maybe have versions co powered with a small diesel for people that use their cars for business.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZFRob View Post
I thought that it was the short term lease that the EV1 was only available for was part of the reason it died. Also short range, long recharge time didnt help much.

Look at the new Tesla coming out. $125K (last $ I heard) for an electric car. 220 mile range.

Would be nice if they could figure a way to get the battery packs small enough (suitcase size and 50lbs max) that you coul dhave one charging at home while you have the other in the car. Maybe a full size with a 400-500 mile range and 4 hr recharge max time. Make spare batteries under $300. Maybe have versions co powered with a small diesel for people that use their cars for business.
I can't wait to go for a ride in the Tesla. Ought to be a pretty awesome machine.

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:37 PM
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I saw it a while ago. Interesting...

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:46 PM
 
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Propaghanda was already here

The Telsa is the future to me. It is the best solution of them all. Keep ya corn fuel and hydro whatever b.s. The only propaganda is howl all of a sudden all the car manufacturers came out with their hybrid cars and trucks when the heat came on. What? Nobody paid attention to that? Honda was first, Toyota second then the big 3 and so on. And all within 1-2 years! C'mon people. They had the technology and have been sitting on it.

I've been in love with the Telsa since it was first posted on this site and have been watching it grow. They do have a recharge system to take with you. It's fast as I don't know what too! Go to the website and check it out. It's been posted here before. It has a lot of supporters and it's not $125,000 on their site but under that. And it's suppose to come down in price as the years go on.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97Fizzer600 View Post
They were kind of a cool idea, there was also an electric S-10 pickup. They'd make sense if you have a relatively short commute, maybe.

-Ryan
That was old school...and yeah, they wouldn't get very far. I think the max range was 60-70 miles while going 45mph. Basically useless for most people.
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-16-2007, 11:25 PM
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no clutch

Y'all have seen the electric R1, right?

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 12:47 AM
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Downloading the torrent now.
let me know if its worth the bandwith.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 07:32 AM
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you wanna see what is going to happen in the Hybrid area watch Lexus....they don't hold anything back when it comes to what the people will like. Who in their right mind needs a 400 HP hybrid (LS I believe for next year)?

They are on gen6 and along with Toyota sold their gen 1 systems to Ford, the big 3 in the US will never get this, they are already behind the times.
Hybrids and diesels, how long is it going to take this country to get with it?
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
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let me know if its worth the bandwith.
Downloading it now on my 10MB pipe. I might watch it tonight since it's going to rain all night.

The drawback to electric cars, is the nickle used in the batteries. It's more damaging to the environment to mine/process/transport the material to make the batteries, then it is to drive a gas guzzling SUV.

There was an article on it comparing a Prius to H2 or H3. They said the best all around environmental car right now is the Scion xB...I think they included bang for your buck and maintenance costs into that as I imagine a LEV would be better...but WTF do I know.

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
The drawback to electric cars, is the nickle used in the batteries. It's more damaging to the environment to mine/process/transport the material to make the batteries, then it is to drive a gas guzzling SUV.
Yes, current electric technology only really addresses the oil problems. The battery technology is not particularly environmentally friendly (though I don't know about MORE polluting), and electricity is still largely coal and nuclear generated, each with their own set of problems. Batteries and electric motors tend to be heavy, but if done properly the transmission can be eliminated.

Tire technology is not without it's set of problems too. Haven't heard much hubub about that!

I think the key is to understand the marriage of technology and consumer demand and not stifle promising technologies.

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 08:07 AM
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I'll be a very happy when when solar collectors are more efficient and they figure out how to make lightweight batteries. *then* we'll see a revolution in electric vehicles.

When the motor blew on my '81 Porsche 924, I was seriously considering changing it over to electric. That would be a fantastic car for electric conversion, assuming I could keep the 51/49 weight distribution.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:23 AM
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:31 AM
 
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I think we should take a ninja 250 and make it electric. With solar panels on the back.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achapman View Post
I think we should take a ninja 250 and make it electric. With solar panels on the back.
It already gets 70-80 mpg, how much more efficent is electric going to be? After all, electric isn't free. It comes from coal/gas/nuclear power plants that have their own drawbacks. I think cars should be banned and only 250 Ninjas allowed on the roads!

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:41 AM
 
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It wouldn't use any gas at all! a few cents a day! Just got to run about 40 miles on a charge, unless I put solar panels on it.

This would be a sweet project!
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:50 AM
 
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I haven't seen the movie yet, but have heard interviews with the guy who made it. I guess the lease was designed to kill the electric car because that way once the lease was up all the cars could be recalled and forgotten. People who had leases tried to buy the cars but were not allowed to. Instead, they were all junked.

US carmakers were definitely short-sighted on hybrids. The way I've heard it told it was all Lee Iococa. Back in the early 80's, when the fleet average for all carmakers was higher than it is now, and Lee Iococa came on to save Chrysler, he gave up on trying to compete with the Japanese on economy cars, and stuck with the one sector of the market the Japanese could not crack in the US, trucks and vans. So he created the minivan. The other US carmakers followed suit and the SUV was created by taking pickups and putting a more user friendly chasis on top of them. It was a temporary fix that gave US carmakers increased sales in the 90's, but while the US carmakers put all their design and marketing money into selling people urban assault vehicles because that what was selling at the moment, the Japanese were looking ahead and developing hybrids.

The real killer with hybrids is most of the mass produced hybrids are available in Europe with a plug-in option, so that any short trip is basically all electric and no gas. In the US, the only way to make your hybrid a plug-in is to pay a custom shop about $10k to modify your car, but this also completely voids the warranty. The vast majority of trips the average American makes are under 10 miles and then back home, so if we just had the same hybrids that are currently available in Europe, those trips could be all electric.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achapman View Post
I think we should take a ninja 250 and make it electric. With solar panels on the back.
I think Gumba has one. Seriously (sans solar panels)

Eric
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 11:03 AM
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The other US carmakers followed suit and the SUV was created by taking pickups and putting a more user friendly chasis on top of them.

Actually the SUV was around back in the 50's. Just werent called sport utility vehicles. Just utility vehicles. even suv's were still just trucks inside until recently (ie 2000) when people wanted car interiors and every freaking useless gadget installed in them.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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I think Gumba has one. Seriously (sans solar panels)
Really? That's awesome!
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 12:47 PM
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unless I put solar panels on it.
Solar panels are not advanced enough yet for this, you would need more surface area than the 250 has to offer.

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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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GM junked the EV1's even after people pleaded to buy them after the lease. They offered over 1 million dollars for twenty cars. The documentary claims GM did not want proof of a gas alternative on the road. They only reason they built the EV1 was to meet the CA mandate.

The charging stations CA built were powered by Solar Panels eliminating some coal and nuclear fuel.

The documentary also poked holes in Fuel Cell technology citing,

- Not good in cold weather
- MPG 2 -3 times worse than gas
- limited range
- Vehicles costing about 1 million dollars
- Have not solved fuel storing issues

It's like the carrot you can never catch. Throw out the solution that will never materialize and keep us addicted to oil. The EV1 was a threat to many people and companies. Toyota will now offer a Prius with a home plug in feature to increase MPG. GM... well they got the Hummer. Americans average 29 miles round trip per day eliminating many of the distance concerns.




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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 04:58 PM
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I've had this darn movie from Netflix for the past month and haven't watched it yet...

Of course, there's always this "project"...
http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 05:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZFRob View Post
Actually the SUV was around back in the 50's. Just werent called sport utility vehicles. Just utility vehicles. even suv's were still just trucks inside until recently (ie 2000) when people wanted car interiors and every freaking useless gadget installed in them.
You're right, Jeep had things like the waggoneer for years, and Range Rover, and the Suburban has been around since the 70's. I guess what I really meant was that Ford and GM didn't really get into the SUV business in a big way and they weren't all that popular until the late 80's early 90's when American producers started slapping nicer chasis on their pickups as a way to compete witht he Japanese..
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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It wasn't GM alone that killed the electric car. It was the world economy. Even though our money is supposedly based upon the value of gold available in the market, it is truly based on the cost of crude oil. Just think about the loss of money not only to the us companies but the world has a whole if crude oil became obsulite and no one was "dependant" upon it as a fuel source. The economy as we know it would collapse.



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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-17-2007, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It wasn't GM alone that killed the electric car. It was the world economy. Even though our money is supposedly based upon the value of gold available in the market, it is truly based on the cost of crude oil. Just think about the loss of money not only to the us companies but the world has a whole if crude oil became obsulite and no one was "dependant" upon it as a fuel source. The economy as we know it would collapse.



*****Disclaimer not trying to cause any hate or discontent.....Just letting you know how I see the world*****
Not likely, it will take decades for an alternative to take over even if we had a viable option today. Major oil co's have already begun to invest in other fuel sources to future proof their business. Citgo bought the rights to the next generation battery packs for cars.

We are talking about reducing the amount of oil we import. Even as we adopt better fuel econemy, other nations will be slow to follow. Just look at China, they can give a fu$# about pollution. As China expands and we continue to over import, oil prices will rise. The fact is Oil is a limited commidity destined to dissapear.

We should explore every possible option. $5.00 a gallon in Chicago is possible within the next 12 - 18 months. All it takes is a refinery to shut down, hurricane or war.




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