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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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JAVA class

Has anyone taken a Java class? It's basic to intermideate level class. My question is do you really need Math in order to do well in this class? I'm pretty good with computers, but I hate math, and last time I took math class was many years ago, obviously I don't remember anything advanced. Are there any programmers/java developers on the board?

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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:29 PM
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You don't need math to learn programming. A lot of good and great programmers have arts / English literature background. Math is only needed if you need to get into very specific areas like graphics, game development, statistics or science. It is much more important to be able to express yourself, that's why English majors typically do well (if they also possess some IQ and have a logical mind).

However, I would recommend learning a programming on your own, Java or not... Unless it's a university/college, most programming schools suck.

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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:29 PM
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I took a java class and you don't really need to know any complex math other than the order of operations that the computer will understand.
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:30 PM
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I am a java developer and you don't need math to learn the language. I imagine it doesn't hurt to know it; but there is probably some relationship between math and programming. good luck!!! If you have any OOP experience it isn't that hard to learn.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:37 PM
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If you want to know the theory behind the programming language (i.e. Algorithms) then you need to know high level math. Otherwise, you really don't.

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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:38 PM
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Anything less than advanced coding is integer or binary mathematics anyway, very easy stuff. Your class is not likely to even mention floating point numbers. No math required, you could train a hamster (or an arts major) to do your work for you.
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-19-2008, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for advise guys

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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 12:03 AM
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It's much more important to have the skills to decompose a problem into a set of solutions. This has very little to do with the programming language.

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:10 AM
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You don't need math to learn programming. A lot of good and great programmers have arts / English literature background. Math is only needed if you need to get into very specific areas like graphics, game development, statistics or science. It is much more important to be able to express yourself, that's why English majors typically do well (if they also possess some IQ and have a logical mind).

However, I would recommend learning a programming on your own, Java or not... Unless it's a university/college, most programming schools suck.
That certainly explains why a lot of programs today are very inefficient (bloated).

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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:30 AM
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Has anyone taken a Java class? It's basic to intermideate level class. My question is do you really need Math in order to do well in this class? I'm pretty good with computers, but I hate math, and last time I took math class was many years ago, obviously I don't remember anything advanced. Are there any programmers/java developers on the board?
You have to be able to count. You have to know your conditional operators like <, >, etc. Other than that, it's just puzzle work.

They will have you create programs that can calculate bank interest and stuff like that. The mathmatical calulation will be given to you. Only thing you need to do it get the values from the keystroke, send it to a module where you will have the mathmatical calculation coded, have it return the value and output it to the screen.

Any mathmatical formulas will be given to you in the program spec created by the teacher. While the thought processes used or developed in a math class could prove useful and make things easier, there is little actual math in an intro/intermediate Java class.

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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 03:55 AM
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ive never made the connection between math and programming.

i understand that they make it seem like you need to, cause of the "critical thinking" such as putting shit in order, i need to do this before i can do that,... but thats about it when it comes to programming. its problem solving, being able to trace where shit goes and manipulate the data to get your desired output. if you learn the language/syntax, youll be able to put code together like nothin. whether it works efficiently, and is scalable etc etc, well thats a different story.

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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 04:08 AM
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ive never made the connection between math and programming.

i understand that they make it seem like you need to, cause of the "critical thinking" such as putting shit in order, i need to do this before i can do that,... but thats about it when it comes to programming. its problem solving, being able to trace where shit goes and manipulate the data to get your desired output. if you learn the language/syntax, youll be able to put code together like nothin. whether it works efficiently, and is scalable etc etc, well thats a different story.
That's where the math comes in....and understanding the 'cost' of each line of code that you write. Cost = how long does this specific thing take to execute?

Our rule of thumb is always: Now that you have a design, add 6 0's to the end of your data and/or volumes of data. Does your design still work or act efficiently?

Loops and repetitive things KILL you when you are inefficient.

Example:

Using a function that takes a second longer to run than another one may not seem like much when you are doing a few things. Do 10,000 such things (as benign as processing a file with 10,000 data elements) and you have just now added about 2.7 hours to your run time

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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 10:16 AM
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Loops and repetitive things KILL you when you are inefficient.
Realtime embedded systems are a little trickier than that. In any case, you don't need advanced mathmatics to have a basic understanding of algorithms and optimization.

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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 10:51 AM
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It never made sense to me why the computer science degrees required a whole shit load of calculus classes.
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 01:07 PM
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It never made sense to me why the computer science degrees required a whole shit load of calculus classes.
They do if you're building huge distributed database systems, telecom network management systems, E911 services, etc. Most people are not.

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 01:22 PM
 
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That's where the math comes in....and understanding the 'cost' of each line of code that you write. Cost = how long does this specific thing take to execute?

Our rule of thumb is always: Now that you have a design, add 6 0's to the end of your data and/or volumes of data. Does your design still work or act efficiently?

Loops and repetitive things KILL you when you are inefficient.

Example:

Using a function that takes a second longer to run than another one may not seem like much when you are doing a few things. Do 10,000 such things (as benign as processing a file with 10,000 data elements) and you have just now added about 2.7 hours to your run time
They only teach that in the old programming books. Creating code that gets the job done in fewer lines and uses less processing time. Today, you can learn visual basic and call yourself a programmer. And, you dont have to worry about bad coding because you can always get a faster processor to speed it up.
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 01:40 PM
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They only teach that in the old programming books. Creating code that gets the job done in fewer lines and uses less processing time. Today, you can learn visual basic and call yourself a programmer. And, you dont have to worry about bad coding because you can always get a faster processor to speed it up.
That's like buying a set of tools from K-Mart and calling yourself a mechanic.

Also like buying a blue and white gixxer and sitting at SOW and calling yourself a rider.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 01:59 PM
 
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That's like buying a set of tools from K-Mart and calling yourself a mechanic.

Also like buying a blue and white gixxer and sitting at SOW and calling yourself a rider.
Is that before or after they went to Craftsman.
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:01 PM
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Is that before or after they went to Craftsman.
Ah yes, the label on the tool makes a newbie a pro.

I also love watching people brag about spending $400 on a driver and watching them whack the ball 100 yards or continually slice the shit out of it.

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:09 PM
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Ah yes, the label on the tool makes a newbie a pro.

I also love watching people brag about spending $400 on a driver and watching them whack the ball 100 yards or continually slice the shit out of it.
lol but it's got a larger sweet spot!

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:18 PM
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or people that get frontpage or dreamweaver, fire up a template they download off a website and call themselves web designers.

but hey, people still pay them for their code. which is good for me because then it takes longer to fix and redesign all their code when the site gets handed to me later on down the road when they go to a new designer/company. cause more time = more money.

so thanks

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
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That's where the math comes in....and understanding the 'cost' of each line of code that you write. Cost = how long does this specific thing take to execute?

Our rule of thumb is always: Now that you have a design, add 6 0's to the end of your data and/or volumes of data. Does your design still work or act efficiently?

Loops and repetitive things KILL you when you are inefficient.

Example:

Using a function that takes a second longer to run than another one may not seem like much when you are doing a few things. Do 10,000 such things (as benign as processing a file with 10,000 data elements) and you have just now added about 2.7 hours to your run time
Therein lies the problem with many of the sql code generator programs of today like Peoplesoft or Siebel systems. Nothing beats a good programmer, with the skill that Dave mentioned earlier, to deconstruct a problem and the knowledge of the capabilities of the data delivery (ie. database) systems supporting the code.

Note: Take what I say with a grain of salt. I now drive a truck for a living. But, I do stay in a LOT of Holiday Inn Express's.

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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:47 PM
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And, you dont have to worry about bad coding because you can always get a faster processor to speed it up.
Try that in embedded systems where size, cost, power budget, heat, etc. are at play. The fact that you can still get a computer science degree being taught that processing power and memory are free is baffling. Equally strange is those who try to prove their mental prowess optimizing code that runs for 10ms every 10 minutes.

Proper behavior is paramount, but you cannot ignore real-world constrains. (Unless you work at Microsoft)

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:48 PM
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Note: Take what I say with a grain of salt. I now drive a truck for a living. But, I do stay in a LOT of Holiday Inn Express's.
At least you know when your job is finished!

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 02:55 PM
 
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Try that in embedded systems where size, cost, power budget, heat, etc. are at play. The fact that you can still get a computer science degree being taught that processing power and memory are free is baffling. Equally strange is those who try to prove their mental prowess optimizing code that runs for 10ms every 10 minutes.

Proper behavior is paramount, but you cannot ignore real-world constrains. (Unless you work at Microsoft)
Thats what they are teaching in school these days. They took the "how to program the correct way" out of the curriculum. Your also lucky if they even teach Assembler.
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 03:17 PM
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Try that in embedded systems where size, cost, power budget, heat, etc. are at play. The fact that you can still get a computer science degree being taught that processing power and memory are free is baffling. Equally strange is those who try to prove their mental prowess optimizing code that runs for 10ms every 10 minutes.

Proper behavior is paramount, but you cannot ignore real-world constrains. (Unless you work at Microsoft)
Now, make that 10ms savings in a routine that gets execute multiple times for every line of an inbound email message when your systems are taking in around 70 million messages a day.. It adds up both in speed and the number of machines required to do that work. That can translate into millions of dollars worth of savings (or more) over time for something stupidly simple. (not to mention power, climate control, spare parts, etc).

Doesn't seem like a 'big deal' on a small scale, but it makes all the difference in the world on a larger scale.

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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 03:56 PM
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Actually, in the web developer world, the only optimizations which truly matter are database access. You can always add more web servers but your database limitations are the only problem with achieving linear scaling.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 04:10 PM
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Actually, in the web developer world, the only optimizations which truly matter are database access. You can always add more web servers but your database limitations are the only problem with achieving linear scaling.
This assumes that each machine itself is already giving you what it is capable of. Circle back to software design

Your httpd software needs to be efficient, your PHP layer interfaces need to be efficient, etc.

Plugging together someone else's stuff might get the job done, but it's not the most effective or cost effective.

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 11:16 PM
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That certainly explains why a lot of programs today are very inefficient (bloated).
Uhm... no. Good English is almost universally laconic and precise, so a good English major should write good code .

Note: I do have quite a math background myself as my second university major was physics. But I also have to admit that I never had a use for advanced math during all the years I spent writing software for business.

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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-20-2008, 11:23 PM
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No math required, you could train a hamster (or an arts major) to do your work for you.
I hope you're joking... An attitude like that is exactly the reason *most* business software is so shitty. Business systems are trivial from the scientific standpoint: normally you're just getting a tabular (relational) or hierarchical (XML) data from one source (user or another system), validate it and store it to another location (file, database, another system). That's it, right? However, creating the code performs well, is maintainable and has low defect rate AND doing it quickly - it's not that easy. For some reason, though, nobody understands/admits that developing business software is hard. So they put dummies to do the job and they end up with a horrible mess that is unmaintainable, incredibly slow, buggy, has repulsive UI, doesn't do what it's supposed to do and... it is over budget.

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