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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Vegan T-Rex - Literally

This is pretty interesting... Biblically Corrext Museum [email protected]
Burntash... You absolutely MUST seek out and do this tour!


http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/...4467337&page=1

Because the Bible Tells Me So?
During Private Museum Tours, Denver Children Learn About Creationism
Rusty Carter, of BC Tours, teaches a group of children at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science.




(ABC News) More Photos By BRIAN ROONEY and MELIA Standing in the lobby of the Denver Museum of Nature & Science, Bill Jack and Rusty Carter pointed to the enormous teeth on the reproduced skeleton of a Tyrannosaurs Rex, and told a group of children and their parents that the fearsome T-Rex was really a vegetarian.

Photos
Explore the Evolutionary TimelineThey said the T-Rex was vegetarian because at the time of the Creation, there was no such thing as death, so a T-Rex could not have eaten meat. There was no death until Adam and Eve ate forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, they continued, and God's revenge was to curse the world with death.

Jack asked, "If this creature was designed to eat meat from the very start, what would he have to do until Adam and Eve sinned and death entered the world? What would he have to do?" The children replied in chorus, "Starve."

"Fast and pray for The Fall. Is that likely?" Jack asked. "The answer is, everyone look at me and say, 'No.' Try that with me.'"

"No!" the children replied.



Jesus: The Designer and Creator
Jack and Carter operate what they call BC Tours: "BC" stands for Biblically Correct. They take paying customers on tours of such places as the Denver Museum, the zoo, and fossil sites, giving an explanation of nature, biology and paleontology with a strictly Biblical interpretation. They lead 100 tours a year and have reached thousands of children since starting their company in 1988.

"We believe Jesus is our designer and our creator of everything that was ever made," Carter tells the group of about 30 home-schooled Christian children and parents.

Known as "young Earth creationists," Jack and Carter say the Bible tells them Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old. In the scientific community, the earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old. Jack and Carter describe both Creationism and the theory of evolution as "philosophies" and "world views" that are essentially on a par with each other; it's just a question of which you choose.

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Touring with the BibleThey believe that the life that populates Earth is not the product of billions of years of evolution, but created by God in six 24 hour days. And they believe Adam and Eve walked the Earth with dinosaurs, and that all the dinosaur fossils found all over the world are probably the result of one catastrophic event, such as Noah's flood, and not 4.5 billion years of life and death.

A 2007 Gallup Poll found that more Americans accept the theory of creationism than evolution. When those surveyed were asked about their views on the origins of life, 66 percent said creation, defined as "the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years," is probably or definitely true. In comparison, 53 percent said evolution, defined as "the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life," is probably or definitely true.

Carter asked the children, "Is evolution a religion?" and they replied "Yes."

"Yes it's a religious belief," Carter said. "It's a philosophy."


Video
Nightline Classic: Evolution in Kansas Classrooms 'Propaganda'
They dismiss much of what's on display in the museum as "pseudo-science" and describe many of the graphic depictions of paleontology and evolution as merely "artwork." Standing before a display on "Life in the Cenozoic Seas," Jack told the group, "This is a great museum if they would take out the propaganda, if they take out the pseudo-science. It's appalling because students go away thinking that cows turned into whales."

They deride the notion that anything so complex as the human eye could be the result of random mutations, or that the scales of a fish could over millions of years become teeth.

"This is a fairy tale, " Jack declared to the children. "How do they know your teeth evolved from scales? Everybody, try that with me, how do you know?

"How-do-you-know?" the kids repeated in unison.


At another exhibit, Carter pointed to a fossil of a giant fish found in Kansas and said, "Who likes to fish? Who would believe you could catch a fish this big in Kansas ?"

The tours are tolerated but not sponsored by the museum.

"They selectively ignore the vast majority of science in their presentation," said paleontologist and Chief Curator Kirk Johnson.

Johnson, who was raised in a creationist household and taught to believe that the world was only 6,000 years old, said that personal observation and a long education have taught him that evolution is the only way that biology makes sense.

"All of science understands that evolution is a central tenet of biology," Johnson said. "That's how biology makes sense. That's how we make better medicines. That's how we understand food crops.

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Nightline: Tours For Jesus"If you want to map out life through time, the fossil record is really great for doing that," he continued. "There's a really nice record of what happened on this planet from the first real life forms we know of about 3.4 billion years ago until today."

Out on the museum floor, Jack and Carter stopped the group in front of a window display that contains samples of sandstone that have ripples created by water and fossils of ancient life. Bill Jack asked his group, "How do they date the fossil? By the layer in which they find it. They date the layer by the fossil and the fossil by the layer," he said. "That's circular reasoning."

In the next moment he stepped past and turned his back to a display on radiometric dating, the method by which scientists determine the age of rocks through the rate of decay of their natural radioactivity.

When later asked why he skipped the display, Jack said simply, "We can't cover everything."

Vote
Do you believe in Survival of the Fittest -- or in a world created by God?Inside the museum's expansive bone and fossil storage room, Johnson said, "They have no clue about how accurate it is Now it's plus or minus a tenth of a percent."


Preaching to the Choir
Jack and Carter are usually preaching to an agreeable audience. Many of their customers also are creationists, some looking for ways to further instruct their children or bolster their own beliefs.

Stacia Martin, who brought her 14-year-old son Shawn, said she had learned how to defend her faith in Jesus Christ.


"I learned that when you look at exhibits, don't take them at face value just because they're exciting looking or because they're interesting," she said.

Her son Shawn said he thinks the world is 10,000 years old, "Because the Bible says that."

According to Johnson there are benefits to the BC Tours, even if children are given a message diametrically opposed to what the museum presents.

"Regardless of what the tour guide is saying, some of those kids are going to start thinking for themselves," Johnson said.

Jack and Carter said that's exactly what they are teaching: that people should think for themselves, but think within a framework of Creationist belief. They say that life makes sense if you believe that God created all life, and man in his own image.

Vote
Do you think that museums should allow "biblically correct" tours?Otherwise, Jack said, "It is naturalism. All there really is, is nature, and everything comes from nature. And yes, that is antithetical to a supernaturalist world view, if you will, that there is a God who created, put order into the universe."

Jack and Carter are now training other people around the country to hold similar tours at their local museums, and they are also putting together tour materials for Christian teachers.

"I've chosen to believe the God of the Bible," said Jack. "Now the evolutionist has chosen not to believe the God of the Bible. So we've chosen to believe they're both matters of faith."
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 08:36 PM
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Little Brian raises his hand and asks " How come the bible doesnt say anything about dinosaurs?"

I want to go on one of those tours just to fuck with them.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 09:15 PM
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 09:20 PM
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 10:36 PM
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 11:15 PM
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 11:19 PM
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Damn it vcook, how about you attach that picture so I can see it...
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 10:45 AM
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I remember as a 8 or 9 year old asking the nun why dinosaurs were not mentioned in the bible.

Still waiting for the answer. I am now 41.

They were not mentioned because when it was written people had no idea of dinosaurs!

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 11:09 AM
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Damn it vcook, how about you attach that picture so I can see it...

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 12:50 PM
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 03:37 PM
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 03:43 PM
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thats what i was thinking. so ill use this


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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 04:16 PM
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 04:17 PM
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touched by his noodly appendage...

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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 04:54 PM
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T



Jack and Carter said that's exactly what they are teaching: that people should think for themselves, but think within a framework of Creationist belief.
Then your not really thinking for yourself are you? I mean come on think for yourself but use this line of thought. Where is the slap hand on forehead smiley.

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:00 PM
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Then your not really thinking for yourself are you? I mean come on think for yourself but use this line of thought. Where is the slap hand on forehead smiley.
You wouldn't be thinking for yourself either if you had someone find it for you.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:00 PM
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Then your not really thinking for yourself are you? I mean come on think for yourself but use this line of thought. Where is the slap hand on forehead smiley.
I give you, instead of a smiley, what might be.... perhaps.... the best /facepalm EVER!


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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:05 PM
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Then your not really thinking for yourself are you? I mean come on think for yourself but use this line of thought. Where is the slap hand on forehead smiley.
cmon man, people cant rely on themselves... thats too scary for them.

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:13 PM
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Then your not really thinking for yourself are you? I mean come on think for yourself but use this line of thought. Where is the slap hand on forehead smiley.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:16 PM
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Just going out on a limb here, but I am guessing you gentlemen are NOT part of the 68% who voted in the poll to go on the 30 day journey with the wisest man ever?

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:17 PM
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Just going out on a limb here, but I guessing you gentlemen are NOT part of the 68% who voted in the poll to go on the 30 day journey with the wisest man ever?
QFT

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 05:19 PM
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Just going out on a limb here, but I am guessing you gentlemen are NOT part of the 68% who voted in the poll to go on the 30 day journey with the wisest man ever?
you sure you're not the wisest man ever?

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 09:08 PM
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you sure you're not the wisest man ever?
I know you guys don't want me "thumping my Bible at you", and believe me, that is not what I am trying to do. So before you think that just stop for a second and consider something.

The first dinosaurs were described scientifically in 1824 by William Buckland, called Megalosaurus.

Don't you find it a little interesting that a book written thousands of years before that so accurately describes 2 separate "dinosaur-type" creatures pretty accurately?

I apologize for the length of these quotes, but I wanted you guys to see the context. Slow down for just a second and actually read this.

Job 40:6-24

God calls Job to give an account of himself

6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,
7 "Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me. 8 "Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified? 9 "Or do you have an arm like God, And can you thunder with a voice like His?

10 "Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity, And clothe yourself with honor and majesty. 11 "Pour out the overflowings of your anger, And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low. 12 "Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, And tread down the wicked where they stand. 13 "Hide them in the dust together; Bind them in the hidden place. 14 "Then I will also confess to you, That your own right hand can save you.

Behemoth (Dinosaur #1, perhaps a Diplodocus or Brachiosaurus)

15 "Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox. 16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins And his power in the muscles of his belly. 17 "He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. 18 "His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron.

19 "He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword. 20 "Surely the mountains bring him food, And all the beasts of the field play there. 21 "Under the lotus plants he lies down, In the covert of the reeds and the marsh. 22 "The lotus plants cover him with shade; The willows of the brook surround him. 23 "If a river rages, he is not alarmed; He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth. 24 "Can anyone capture him when he is on watch, With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?

Leviathan (Dinosaur #2 - perhaps a Plesiosaurus)


Job 41:1-34

1 "Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord? 2 "Can you put a rope in his nose Or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 "Will he make many supplications to you, Or will he speak to you soft words? 4 "Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him for a servant forever? 5 "Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you bind him for your maidens? 6 "Will the traders bargain over him? Will they divide him among the merchants? 7 "Can you fill his skin with harpoons, Or his head with fishing spears? 8 "Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle; you will not do it again! 9 "Behold, your expectation is false; Will you be laid low even at the sight of him? 10 "No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him; Who then is he that can stand before Me? 11 "Who has given to Me that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.

12 "I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame. 13 "Who can strip off his outer armor? Who can come within his double mail? 14 "Who can open the doors of his face? Around his teeth there is terror. 15 "His strong scales are his pride, Shut up as with a tight seal. 16 "One is so near to another That no air can come between them. 17 "They are joined one to another; They clasp each other and cannot be separated. 18 "His sneezes flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. 19 "Out of his mouth go burning torches; Sparks of fire leap forth. 20 "Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. 21 "His breath kindles coals, And a flame goes forth from his mouth. 22 "In his neck lodges strength, And dismay leaps before him. 23 "The folds of his flesh are joined together, Firm on him and immovable. 24 "His heart is as hard as a stone, Even as hard as a lower millstone. 25 "When he raises himself up, the mighty fear; Because of the crashing they are bewildered. 26 "The sword that reaches him cannot avail, Nor the spear, the dart or the javelin. 27 "He regards iron as straw, Bronze as rotten wood. 28 "The arrow cannot make him flee; Slingstones are turned into stubble for him. 29 "Clubs are regarded as stubble; He laughs at the rattling of the javelin. 30 "His underparts are like sharp potsherds; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mire. 31 "He makes the depths boil like a pot; He makes the sea like a jar of ointment. 32 "Behind him he makes a wake to shine; One would think the deep to be gray-haired. 33 "Nothing on earth is like him, One made without fear. 34 "He looks on everything that is high; He is king over all the sons of pride."


Is it possible that much like only the artist can accurately describe exactly what his intentions were in a given painting, so also only the dinosaur's Creator can accurately describe them so accurately long before any man even knows of their existence?

Again, not my intention to pick a fight. Just something to consider.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 09:55 PM
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people also thought up dragons and other epic mythical beasts. i can imagine people coming up with 2 creatures... 2 ... that could even come remotely close to what you might call a dinosaur in the bible, and thats stretching it.

Plesiosaurus and Brachiosaurus are both from what we call the Jurassic Period which was estimated to be millions of years ago. if we were to look at it from a geographical stand point judging by rock beds. if you wanted to go the carbon dating route, it comes out to even 16,000+ years. the time of job was somewhere around what, 2100-1700 bc?. and the farthest the bible can go back was 4000bc? so 6000 years at best of history? wheres the other 10,000 years.

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
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Is it possible that much like only the artist can accurately describe exactly what his intentions were in a given painting, so also only the dinosaur's Creator can accurately describe them so accurately long before any man even knows of their existence?
First off, it was written by a human. Not a creator. Who is to say he wasn't tripping and described what he saw? I've seen some shit before that no man or science has described before Or simply he was writing a book, or a short story.


But off course, that is so much more unlikely, than god telling all those different authors what to write. And than chose other people, to decide which of his original thoughts to put in the book, and what to leave out becuase his original thoughts weren't right anymore. Yeah, that sounds more likely
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 10:38 PM
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people also thought up dragons and other epic mythical beasts. i can imagine people coming up with 2 creatures... 2 ... that could even come remotely close to what you might call a dinosaur in the bible, and thats stretching it.

Plesiosaurus and Brachiosaurus are both from what we call the Jurassic Period which was estimated to be millions of years ago. if we were to look at it from a geographical stand point judging by rock beds. if you wanted to go the carbon dating route, it comes out to even 16,000+ years. the time of job was somewhere around what, 2100-1700 bc?. and the farthest the bible can go back was 4000bc? so 6000 years at best of history? wheres the other 10,000 years.
How old is the Earth? That is a very debatable subject with several competing trains of thought. At the end of the day, it is a faith issue...you have to put your faith in something. Chose what you believe.

I just thought it was quite interesting that a couple creatures resembling dinosaurs were described so accurately in a book that dated far earlier than the date dinosaurs were first scientifically described.

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 11:00 PM
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"The man who makes me your enemy, it is he who be the guilty one....Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!"
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 11:15 PM
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How old is the Earth? That is a very debatable subject with several competing trains of thought. At the end of the day, it is a faith issue...you have to put your faith in something. Chose what you believe.

I just thought it was quite interesting that a couple creatures resembling dinosaurs were described so accurately in a book that dated far earlier than the date dinosaurs were first scientifically described.
there in lies the issue. believe something written by man thousands of years ago with talking burning bushes, parting seas, zombies/dead people risen, 600yo men, 7 day creation magic, 2 unknown kind of similar creatures out of the all the different types that existed, and a being whom refuses everyday not to show itself living up in the sky somewhere partying with a trillion dead souls of the past and soon to be future 24/7.

which kind of reminds me of medieval stories with dragons (who could also be thought to resemble dinosaurs), sorcery (god like super magic powers), fighting and action. it all just sounds like a really good book/novel to me. dont get me wrong, the bible can have some pretty decent messages. love thy neighbor, treat others as you want to be treated. but when it comes down to it, i dont think im going to base my thinking around someone with an education of a kindergartner living in a mud pile marrying his cousin.

then you have the scientific approach that the earth has gradually grown and evolved over thousands to millions or even billions of years. seasons change, ashes to ashes, dust to dust, life and death, organisms that fight and evolve as they try to adapt to the environment in which they are born, and scientific studies that form new discoveries and put to rest old ones everyday, and we begin to realize just how small earth is compared to the vast universe out there and perhaps other worlds have organisms that are just starting to be born into and adapt to their environments to form life as it repeats and traces the same process as the earth has.

i dunno... whatever gets you through the day. but to be perfectly honest if we didn't have science and just answered everything with god, we would never come as far as we have. the advances in modern medicine and technology... there had to be people who broke away from that form of thinking and when they did they got crucified for it throughout history. (galileo comes to mind to start).

but hey, we always come back to the question how did something come from nothing. and thats going to be a pretty tough one to figure out. but you have to figure, god had to have come from somewhere, and also gotten those pretty bad ass powers from somewhere too to create a universe. burntash wants in on the magic!

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest - Denis Diderot
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 11:39 PM
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and as a side note to the article.

what really gets to me. is people dont wait with religion they put it into the most impressionable people, children. they never have a fighting chance to defend their minds and question what theyre being told. they get introduced to it with the easter bunny, santa, the tooth fairy, they really believe these things exist. and the real kicker is that eventually they grow up and realize that somethings not right here..... santa cant be all over the world in one night. parents come out and tell them they dont exist but they stop at god and never say god doesnt exist they keep that idea going. its a system of control, to keep you being good with fear of going to hell. maybe when you get older its not so much about that anymore, more like a permanent invisible friend there to comfort you and give you closure during bad times. (even though you would think you could get that from family, friends, whatever). but when you're that age, its just not right nor is it fair.

if you tried getting an educated person in their 20s,30s,40s to believe there is an invisible man living in the sky, or that someone delivers presents to billions around the world in one night, or a giant rabbit breaks into your house to hide eggs, or a fairy flies in your room and takes the tooth under your pillow. they'd laugh themselves into a coma.

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest - Denis Diderot
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