HELP!!! Math. - Chicagoland Sportbikes
Chicagoland Sportbikes
 
Open Forum This forum is for all off-topic discussion.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
HELP!!! Math.

Machinists, Engineers, math wizards, I need a formula to do angle compensation of three angles with an offset.

The current project I am working on doesn't need to be super accurate, but I have a couple more projects coming up that will need the utmost in accuracy. So now is a good time to learn.

Right now I am designing a fixture to re-grind spade drill inserts, for another department.

Here is the part that will be held in the fixture I am making.

Que crappy sketch.


The cutting lip "must" make a true 90 lead in. To do this and have a lip relief, compensation must be used, I got that. But when the 5 deg cutting edge angle is introduced, combined with a .040 offset, everything goes to hell.

The red portions in the sketch are a radius to make a positive rake cutting edge. Not importaint right now, just helped make the crappy sketch easyer to read. Disreguard the 25deg angle and the 20deg back clearance.

To summarize;
Need a true 45deg lip.
The relief for the lip is 8deg
The cutting edge angle is 5deg.
The cutting edge offset is .040.

How do I figure the proper setting for a simple compound sine-plate?

I need the formula in its raw form and the same formula using the inputs listed above so I can understand better.

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage

Last edited by sqrly; 10-31-2008 at 06:14 AM.
sqrly is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 06:50 AM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
set the bar at 8deg then indicate the part at 45.

This fomula maybe in the machinest hand book but I don't recall any specific fomula for the combined angle .Just remember the grinding wheel only offers one plane the bar another and rotating the piece a third.

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.
resurrection is offline  
post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
set the bar at 8deg then indicate the part at 45.

This fomula maybe in the machinest hand book but I don't recall any specific fomula for the combined angle .Just remember the grinding wheel only offers one plane the bar another and rotating the piece a third.
That is how "I" normaly do the job, but I am making a fixture so that the non-machinists that should never be allowed to run any kind of machine can do the job.

Pockets to hold the spade will be milled into a block setting the neccessary angles for them. Four pockets total. One for each angle to be ground on the spade.

I have run in to similar probles in the past and found ways around it, but I still want to know the proper math to verify my actions.

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 08:05 AM
Model citizen
 
Maynard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rockford
Posts: 10,023
Location: Rockford
Sportbike: ktm
Years Riding: a few
How you found us: SBN
           
I have much respect for machinists. I work with them every day and just give them a print of what I want. You guys are smart muthafuckas

The only way I could even possibly figure it out would be to draw it up in SolidWorks and measure. Even then I'd probally get it wrong

Eric
Maynard is offline  
post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 08:19 AM
i need a new bike, this one is trashed
 
ashwingop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Streamwood
Posts: 2,485
Location: Streamwood
Sportbike: Yammies
Years Riding: A few
How you found us: fellow rider
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I have much respect for machinists. I work with them every day and just give them a print of what I want. You guys are smart muthafuckas

The only way I could even possibly figure it out would be to draw it up in SolidWorks and measure. Even then I'd probally get it wrong
+1...I work with some smart machinists as well. I design stuff and they cut it out of a fucking block of metal. I am taking a machine shop night class to improve my knowledge so I can relate to the difficulties of the trade.

Where's Dave and/or Bruce...they should be able to help out.
ashwingop is offline  
post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 08:23 AM
Clever Girl
 
Noodles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Glendale Heights
Posts: 10,209
Location: Glendale Heights
Sportbike: 'Fightered F3
Years Riding: 3 years
How you found us: I woke up here.
           
Send a message via AIM to Noodles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I have much respect for machinists. I work with them every day and just give them a print of what I want. You guys are smart muthafuckas

The only way I could even possibly figure it out would be to draw it up in SolidWorks and measure. Even then I'd probally get it wrong
+1

A lot of times I don't hand our tool room a print, I just tell them what I want, a part it has to work with, and say thanks!

Always comes back perfect and better than what I was expecting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
Noodles accepts no liability for the content of this post, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in writing. Any views or opinions presented in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Noodles.
Noodles is offline  
post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I have much respect for machinists. I work with them every day and just give them a print of what I want. You guys are smart muthafuckas

The only way I could even possibly figure it out would be to draw it up in SolidWorks and measure. Even then I'd probally get it wrong
I managed to screw it up in autocad. I should try again, but if I had the formula, I could prove it in autocad.

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 09:12 AM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
machinest handbook

pg1588 22nd edition

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.

Last edited by resurrection; 10-31-2008 at 09:17 AM.
resurrection is offline  
post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
machinest handbook

pg1588 22nd edition
Damn, I have the 25th edition.

Are you talking about figure 6 in the compound angle section?

I tried that but maybe I didn't put the numbers in in the right order. Or maybe the offset is what is messing things up?

This is the closest formula I have found in the handbook.

tan R = tan A1 / tan B1

tan C1 = tan A1 / sin R = tan B1 / cos R

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 12:30 PM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
even with these #'s to progress the part through you must ref. them all the same.Maybe useing a dowl or the corner of insert pocket.

As the part moves to the next station for the next grind your math must use the same ref. as these fixtures will compound your error.

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.
resurrection is offline  
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 02:31 PM
Fading fast...
 
Bad Company's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Huntley
Posts: 455
Location: Huntley
Sportbike: Buell
Years Riding: since '88
How you found us: someone in traffic school...
           
Now that I see what you're doing...

Over the weekend I'll draw up the fixture you want for that. I've done something simular to sharpen e-mills in emergencies. It's not really hard just confusing as hell. Once you add a third angle things start to get silly.

The drawing will be in AutoCad 14.

One more thing... Is your shop looking for help? I'm looking for pt/ft 2nd/3rd shifts. My shop has now cut the hours so far that I need a second job.
Bad Company is offline  
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 03:02 PM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
Bruce I feel youir pain with work shortage

This fixture if I'm following you and you want it to hold four different ways ?

Cutting a compound angled pocket ?with a sq. ended end mill wont work .You can run an oversized clamping surface with a key for location.

A compound pocket would have walls less than 90 deg.

EDM sinker will allow this as it can finish the corners sharp

I would suggest four blocks. Each with its own pocket cut sq.then the bottom of the block cut at the angles needed.With a common "Z" level on each block you could run four inserts at once in the surface grinder.

These inserts are ref by a key slot in the bottom or screw holes Every thing must ref there.

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.

Last edited by resurrection; 10-31-2008 at 03:32 PM.
resurrection is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 03:04 PM
YO MAMA
 
Odysseys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Posts: 60,261
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
Years Riding: a long time!
           
1-0=1



Odysseys is offline  
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 03:30 PM
Fading fast...
 
Bad Company's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Huntley
Posts: 455
Location: Huntley
Sportbike: Buell
Years Riding: since '88
How you found us: someone in traffic school...
           
The way my fixture works is...

A post(bit holder) mounted on center of an upside-down pyramid (6-sides + bottom). By putting one side on the mag and putting the corrisponding edge against the backrail. Each angle will have 2 bases and edges for 2 flute. An ol' timer had one with the chuck mounted in a square hole so he could rotate it and do 4 flutes with one set up.

I made one of these for e-mills at the end of my apprenticeship but I can't find it. They work as well as they're made. I used a small drill chuck for a bit holder.

I know my fixture is over-kill (a toolmaker's way of showing-off). Your idea is easier to make but each set up after the first would be a pain, do-able but still a pain.

Last edited by Bad Company; 10-31-2008 at 03:37 PM.
Bad Company is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 03:34 PM
Fading fast...
 
Bad Company's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Huntley
Posts: 455
Location: Huntley
Sportbike: Buell
Years Riding: since '88
How you found us: someone in traffic school...
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
1-0=1
Bad Company is offline  
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 03:52 PM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
Do you mean cutting the blocks bottom a pain or the install into 4 holders .

In mass production as in sharpening a dozen or more and leaving blocks in the grinder .progresive fixtureing is were its at

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.

Last edited by resurrection; 10-31-2008 at 03:57 PM.
resurrection is offline  
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
even with these #'s to progress the part through you must ref. them all the same.Maybe useing a dowl or the corner of insert pocket.

As the part moves to the next station for the next grind your math must use the same ref. as these fixtures will compound your error.
I will be using an inspection ball (threaded post with a precition ball attatched) located in the center of the top surface of the block.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce317 View Post
Now that I see what you're doing...

Over the weekend I'll draw up the fixture you want for that. I've done something simular to sharpen e-mills in emergencies. It's not really hard just confusing as hell. Once you add a third angle things start to get silly.

The drawing will be in AutoCad 14.

One more thing... Is your shop looking for help? I'm looking for pt/ft 2nd/3rd shifts. My shop has now cut the hours so far that I need a second job.
I am not sure if I have a way to read a Acad 14 file, I have Acad2000 on a really old computer with no access to internet.
Sorry our work is getting slow too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
Bruce I feel youir pain with work shortage

This fixture if I'm following you and you want it to hold four different ways ?

Cutting a compound angled pocket ?with a sq. ended end mill wont work .You can run an oversized clamping surface with a key for location.

A compound pocket would have walls less than 90 deg.

EDM sinker will allow this as it can finish the corners sharp

I would suggest four blocks. Each with its own pocket cut sq.then the bottom of the block cut at the angles needed.With a common "Z" level on each block you could run four inserts at once in the surface grinder.

These inserts are ref by a key slot in the bottom or screw holes Every thing must ref there.
Exactly! The pocket will be oversized. I just want to have square and parralel surfaces on the block so as I rotate it to work on each successive side I have a way to clamp the block in the vise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce317 View Post
The way my fixture works is...

A post(bit holder) mounted on center of an upside-down pyramid (6-sides + bottom). By putting one side on the mag and putting the corrisponding edge against the backrail. Each angle will have 2 bases and edges for 2 flute. An ol' timer had one with the chuck mounted in a square hole so he could rotate it and do 4 flutes with one set up.

I made one of these for e-mills at the end of my apprenticeship but I can't find it. They work as well as they're made. I used a small drill chuck for a bit holder.

I know my fixture is over-kill (a toolmaker's way of showing-off). Your idea is easier to make but each set up after the first would be a pain, do-able but still a pain.
I thought about the upside down pyramid design, but this block WILL get dropped from time to time by the moron crew and will be easyer to re square the bottom and sides at a later date.


Quote:
Originally Posted by resurrection View Post
Do you mean cutting the blocks bottom a pain or the install into 4 holders .

In mass production as in sharpening a dozen or more and leaving blocks in the grinder .progresive fixtureing is were its at
This will be a single progressive fixture. The three flat surfaces will be set to proper Z hights, and the pocket for the radius grind will not be at a specified z since a wheel change will be neccessary.

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
1+0=1
Not always!!!
Sometimes when you put "1" in to "0", the end result may be 2

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
Highspeed ditch inspector
 
sqrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dixon, IL
Posts: 3,717
Location: Dixon, IL
Sportbike: CB-360, RST Futura, 96/97/98/99 compilation of gixxers into one trackbike.
Years Riding: Since 2000
How you found us: Member
           
More than just the first angle I asked about origonaly, I will still need to do a similar compansation for the pocket that will locate the angle for the radius grind.

So I really need the formula!!! rather that having someone else do ALL the hard stuff and me not learning much.

Gus and Bruce, I REALLY apriciate your help!!!

!!!!!!!(.)(.)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!). (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!( y )!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Garage
sqrly is offline  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-31-2008, 10:41 PM

 
resurrection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: parkforest IL
Posts: 5,620
Location: parkforest IL
Sportbike: lots
Years Riding: all of them
How you found us: grasshopper
           
I guess the the best way to test your math will be in the cutting of the steel

Maybe a lay out to the corner you want low using a hieght sribe that you can lay out with the block sq.

then set it up .touch the top and see if when you cut to your sribed line it should work to the #'s on the mill.

Most important is keeping a sq. edge as ref and keep it sq as long as you can.

Good luck

Gus
We offer three kinds of service @ Resurrection
GOOD - CHEAP - FAST
You can pick any two
GOOD service CHEAP won't be FAST
GOOD service FAST won't be CHEAP
FAST service CHEAP won't be GOOD
and cold beer.

I'd love to help but I don't chase parts.
Please contact other forum members and supporters for parts.

Last edited by resurrection; 10-31-2008 at 10:44 PM.
resurrection is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chicagoland Sportbikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome