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post #1 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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The fate of the Big 3

I really hope the Big 3 automakers can pull through this, a lot of jobs are at stake here.
I was wondering IF they do go under, what happens to the vehicles left on the lots, and the people who have new vehicles with warranties left?
Do you think they will make it through this?

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post #2 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 06:50 PM
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ahh fuck it.. i'm already out a job

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post #3 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 06:54 PM
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I heard on the radio one of the first questions asked of the three CEO's was if they flew commercial airlines or private jets to their appearance today. All flew private jets, about 20k each. Looks like saving or cutting back is not that important to them, but a bail-out is. Accountability is a bitch. Hope they wake up and make some real changes at the core of the problem before laying off people. You know there has to be millions if not more of pointless spending going on in those companies.
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post #4 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 06:56 PM
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ford just showed their 2010 Bankruptcy prevention coupé....err.....mustang last night on speed.

although i doubt it's gonna save the company.

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post #5 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 06:57 PM
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company doesn't need bailout, they need people to start buying cars

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post #6 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:12 PM
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I think that 1 out of 3 will survive.
The Big 3 & the UAW have dug their own grave, and they should take a dirt nap. The $25 billion in bailout funds will only last a few months, and then what?

-Mike
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post #7 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:29 PM
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I heard on the radio one of the first questions asked of the three CEO's was if they flew commercial airlines or private jets to their appearance today. All flew private jets, about 20k each. Looks like saving or cutting back is not that important to them, but a bail-out is. Accountability is a bitch. Hope they wake up and make some real changes at the core of the problem before laying off people. You know there has to be millions if not more of pointless spending going on in those companies.
Honestly whats at stake for them and the workers.. It's not even the same game

They. Will probably pocket 8 to 9 figures just to "close the business down"
take their money .. which is equal to 1000's of peoples salaries.. and maybe work again.. or maybe not.. truth is.. they nor their kids, nor their kids kids, nor their kids kids kids will ever have to work again.. unless they want to.

Many of the workers? They will struggle to feed their families.

Remember what happened with the steel mills.. How they cancelled everyones pensions.. health care.. everything.. when they went bankrupt..
But didn't that guy who came in to shut them down walk away with over 100 million dollars?
I lived in Indiana when all that happened.. and to be honest to this day I am surprised he was never shot.. those people were angry



I imagine we might start seeing overseas buyouts when they bankrupt out and break all the union contracts...

Maybe then it could be made profitable.. maybe.


I am not for salary caps.. but come on.. cant these big companies and the old boys club see they are running everything into the ground? Where is their self sacrifice? Lead by example.
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post #8 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:43 PM
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Honestly the dont need shit. They dont deserve shit. There just saying whatever they can in order to get the money at this point. I was watching some news station and they were showing some of the debate going on with the ceo's. The one speaker was asking them, why did you all have to spend "however much, forgot" each to get here. You couldnt just fly first class on a regular plane? Or you all couldnt of private jet pooled? They all just sat there silent looking away lol. Just proof right there that they only want to pocket as much as possible and nothing more. If they honestly really care about the american people, there companies, then they can stop giving failing business ceo's million dollar bonuses, stop being to wasteful in there spending and learn to cut back as needed. Fuck them, dont give them anything.

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post #9 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrat View Post
I think that 1 out of 3 will survive.
The $25 billion in bailout funds will only last a few months, and then what?

-Mike
Exactly.

The companies wont disappear. Bankruptcy will simply allow them to be able to reorganize.
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post #10 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MoparBoyy View Post
company doesn't need bailout, they need people to start buying cars
They need to start building cars that people want to buy.

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post #11 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:13 PM
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I read an interesting article on this today on MSN Money. Bailout will doubtfully work: The management of all three is grossly inept and their hands are tied by union contracts that make profitability, regardless of the economy, a mere pipe dream. Even when the economy was okay (last few years), they were losing money.

And who'd buy a car from a bankrupt company, when the guys down the street aren't? And wouldn't the price on all the other cars go up, since there would be more demand?

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post #12 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:14 PM
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They need to start building cars that people want to buy.
That right there is the problem. A warmed over grand am and lumina is not a new vehicle. they have been building on that design for far too long.




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post #13 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:17 PM
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All of them should fire the top 10% of the employees who draw the most pay and benefits (NO EXCEPTIONS)... and give the remaining people an instant promotion.

That should free up enough cash to fix their other problems.

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post #14 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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Better vehicles of course, but also if they wipe out the majority of the senior management teams I might favor a bailout. To simply hand over cash and say, pay us back with interest...not so much.
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post #15 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:41 PM
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The rights will be bought up, a new business plan (one that fits the current economy in which they do NOT own 80% of the global auto industry) will be implemented and they'll be, with time, back on their feet...albeit with new management.

Getting bailed out for having a ridiculously outdated gameplan is a joke, IMO. Although I am admittedly mixed on this as it will have a significant impact on the work force, even if it is in the long run seemingly the right thing to do to let them go under.

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post #16 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:48 PM
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That right there is the problem. A warmed over grand am and lumina is not a new vehicle. they have been building on that design for far too long.
One of my coworkers actually had a chat with one of the higher up execs over at Ford a few years ago and said the same thing.

The Exec said the problem wasn't that they didn't have the engineers to design something new and revolutionary, the problem was all the older project manager types would never step outside the box with a design, and would only allow the same old crap to go through.

There's a reason so many companies have adapted Toyota's design mentality. At my current company, I've had to read a few books and go through a full weeks worth of training just to understand and learn the concept of set based design. It's easy to get the engineers on board, it's a lot harder to change the system and mentality of the ones that actually control the projects and monetary decisions.

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post #17 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:49 PM
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I think they have too many brands under each name. GM alone has Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn, Buick, Cadillac, Saab, and Opel. Most people dont even know that when they shop between Pontiac, Saturn, and Chevy that they're really looking at the same company. GM should just kill off GMC, Saturn, Pontiac, Buick and Saab and turn those jobs into just Chevy. Put a sporty, comfortable, or cushy trimline on each car to make up for the difference. The fact that they'd save so much money on the trim pieces alone would help them out a lot. Nissan has Nissan for mainstream and Infinity for luxury. Toyota and Honda are the same. You don't need to have 6 different lines that are almost redundant when two can do the same job.
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post #18 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 09:24 PM
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What happened the last time some rich debutant bitch like these pampered execs pulled this "let them eat cake" in the midst of a past "financial crisis"

how'd that work out again?

and that was with the french
dont americans consider themselves tougher and more "no bullshit" than those wimpy french?
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post #19 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:02 PM
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It's a fire sale and everything must go

If I were a CFO for one of the major Japanese companies, I'd start looking to Detroit for the first one to be shut down and buy it out. Then start making cars MY WAY. No more Unions, nothing but QC improvement and improved fuel economy. People aren't buying Japanese cars strictly out of brand loyalty, they're buying them because they last and the resale value doesn't drop like a rock the moment you drive it off the lot.
Why does Toyota have some of the highest quality control in its class? Because they perfected it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

The Big Three don't need a bailout, they need a tutor and QC improvement. It's not that we CAN'T make better cars, it's that we DON'T.

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post #20 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:04 PM
 
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Anyone seen Ford's new Fusion? It's pretty sweet looking... Gets better mileage and has more horsepower than the Accord and Camry.

http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/201...e=thumb800x800

No... I don't work for Ford.
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post #21 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
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If I were a CFO for one of the major Japanese companies, I'd start looking to Detroit for the first one to be shut down and buy it out. Then start making cars MY WAY. No more Unions, nothing but QC improvement and improved fuel economy. People aren't buying Japanese cars strictly out of brand loyalty, they're buying them because they last and the resale value doesn't drop like a rock the moment you drive it off the lot.
Why does Toyota have some of the highest quality control in its class? Because they perfected it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

The Big Three don't need a bailout, they need a tutor and QC improvement. It's not that we CAN'T make better cars, it's that we DON'T.
imaginary history repeats itself?

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post #22 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:38 PM
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I said in another thread.... GM cannot proceed without bankruptcy / restructuring.



They are stuck between the UAM and dealer contracts.


The ONLY way that moves is with bankruptcy / line consolodation and restructuring.


To give them money at this point would be like throwing it in a shredder.


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post #23 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:40 PM
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If I were a CFO for one of the major Japanese companies, I'd start looking to Detroit for the first one to be shut down and buy it out. Then start making cars MY WAY. No more Unions, nothing but QC improvement and improved fuel economy. People aren't buying Japanese cars strictly out of brand loyalty, they're buying them because they last and the resale value doesn't drop like a rock the moment you drive it off the lot.
Why does Toyota have some of the highest quality control in its class? Because they perfected it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

The Big Three don't need a bailout, they need a tutor and QC improvement. It's not that we CAN'T make better cars, it's that we DON'T.
There's been rumors flying around for years that Toyota has been positioning themselves to buy out Ford. Supposed meetings between them so and so forth.

It would be interested if there was truth behind the rumors.

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post #24 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:50 PM
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ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!

Hit it on the head.

I am cutting the authors name from the top.. Read it on it's own merits.. Then read his name on the bottom.. That way there can be no preconceived notions.. or at least less

Quote:
Op-Ed Contributor
Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

Published: November 18, 2008

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

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post #25 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:03 PM
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ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!

Hit it on the head.

I am cutting the authors name from the top.. Read it on it's own merits.. Then read his name on the bottom.. That way there can be no preconceived notions.. or at least less
Pssst...beginning of the third paragraph....

Dead give away as to the author

And I do agree, that is very brilliant.

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post #26 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 01:07 AM
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From what I had read, I thought GM and Ford had brought many of their quality levels right near Honda and Toyota. Specifically Ford was right near them. As for building cars people want, have you been to a domestic dealer lately? Several of the latest models are darn good. Ford Fusion, Mustang, Corvette, Chevy Malibu, GM pick up trucks, F series truck, Cadillac CTS, Ford Edge, GMC Acadia. I would argue each of these cars is near the top of their class right with a Toyota/Lexus offering. Their primary problem is continued poor perception. People still love to hate the domestic 3 despite their improvements.

And for the record, I did not think Toyota "originated" their system. After WWII, American experts went to Japan and helped plant the tools and ideas which the Japanese then developed further into a very good system. For some reason, no one in the traditional US plants wanted to listen to the good ideas of their country men like Deming, Juran, etc. So give the "crappy" US engineers a little credit, "some" of them are pretty smart

I don't know what is best, but whatever it is will hurt. Perhaps bankruptcy is best. But I do not understand why many people are actually enthusiastic to see GM/Ford/Chrysler fall. Like it is some sort of justified revenge for one poor abused car they had 20 years ago or that current management deserves punishment for allowing things to get this way. I agree that the executives likely deserve the boot and some fresh faces would be good. But if these companies fall, as many desire, I bet not one of those execs will suffer any hardship from this. It will be the average hard workers that suffer. Think of all the people that worked hard for GM for 40 years that may lose all their retirement benefits that they had counted on, the engineers that are working late every night trying their best to meet customer's new demands, the restaurant owner in a town where a supplier plant closes its doors and everyone leaves town, etc.

For every lazy person that may deserve what is going to happen to the big three, there are likely 10 honest people that will also be affected that do not deserve this.

More and more we seem to be sliding from recession to depression.
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post #27 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 01:19 AM
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Giving them money is useless with out resturcting. But the loss of 1 let alone all three would crush are alread crap economy.

I still stand with stop bailing out any company or bank and give back to the people. People can't spend what they don't have. You want to jump start the economy this would help more than giving the rich more money. Yes alot of people would save most till things look better. but think if every tax payer to 10% of there cut of 700 billion dallors and went shoping. Just my :2cents

Another problem is if they bail the big three out whose next, and when and where does it stop.
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post #28 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 01:30 AM
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Giving them money is useless with out resturcting. But the loss of 1 let alone all three would crush are alread crap economy.

I still stand with stop bailing out any company or bank and give back to the people. People can't spend what they don't have. You want to jump start the economy this would help more than giving the rich more money. Yes alot of people would save most till things look better. but think if every tax payer to 10% of there cut of 700 billion dallors and went shoping. Just my :2cents
Its hard to decide between giant douche and turd sandwhich sometimes.

but if you were to just hand out 700billion dollars the problem then becomes the loss of value of that dollar. The next day bread is $40, we are spending dollars like yen and we are no better off.

Honestly I can't come up with a great plan myself but handing out money doesn't work.

I'm tempted to say let them fail. Either they will restructure, come back better, more efficient or those with money will buy up their assets and start fresh. Think exxon mobil type of money.

I know it crushes dreams and is unpatriotic etc etc but the foreign automakers that have been profitable could aquire the factories, machinery etc and instead of assembling fords it's vw's and audis, more toyota and hyundai plants and the like.

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post #29 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 78montecarlo View Post
From what I had read, I thought GM and Ford had brought many of their quality levels right near Honda and Toyota. Specifically Ford was right near them. As for building cars people want, have you been to a domestic dealer lately? Several of the latest models are darn good. Ford Fusion, Mustang, Corvette, Chevy Malibu, GM pick up trucks, F series truck, Cadillac CTS, Ford Edge, GMC Acadia. I would argue each of these cars is near the top of their class right with a Toyota/Lexus offering. Their primary problem is continued poor perception. People still love to hate the domestic 3 despite their improvements.

And for the record, I did not think Toyota "originated" their system. After WWII, American experts went to Japan and helped plant the tools and ideas which the Japanese then developed further into a very good system. For some reason, no one in the traditional US plants wanted to listen to the good ideas of their country men like Deming, Juran, etc. So give the "crappy" US engineers a little credit, "some" of them are pretty smart

I don't know what is best, but whatever it is will hurt. Perhaps bankruptcy is best. But I do not understand why many people are actually enthusiastic to see GM/Ford/Chrysler fall. Like it is some sort of justified revenge for one poor abused car they had 20 years ago or that current management deserves punishment for allowing things to get this way. I agree that the executives likely deserve the boot and some fresh faces would be good. But if these companies fall, as many desire, I bet not one of those execs will suffer any hardship from this. It will be the average hard workers that suffer. Think of all the people that worked hard for GM for 40 years that may lose all their retirement benefits that they had counted on, the engineers that are working late every night trying their best to meet customer's new demands, the restaurant owner in a town where a supplier plant closes its doors and everyone leaves town, etc.

For every lazy person that may deserve what is going to happen to the big three, there are likely 10 honest people that will also be affected that do not deserve this.

More and more we seem to be sliding from recession to depression.
Especially with the economy being what it is now, people are starting to shop a lot smarter. For the past couple of years, GM in particular has had completely crap resale value, which isn't a lot of incentive if you're going to be buying a Caddy/Suburban/Escalade, etc. Most of the Consumer Reports and other review panels have put Honda and Toyota consistently above the Big Three in most tests, including truck and SUV. Don't get me wrong- I LOVE the new 'Stangs. And I don't want to see the Big Three fall for the reasons that you've stated (read: corporate failure hits the little guy the hardest). One of the other things to consider is the fate of NASCAR.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pag...u_sid=10486057

Say what you want about the Redneck Riviera, it's a hell of a revenue generator for everyone.

But I don't think the bailout package is the correct answer, unless the suits would agree to major restructuring of resources, employees, and finances. Without a six-figure bonus to sweeten the deal, I think they'd be less enthused.

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post #30 of 86 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 02:21 AM
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maybe they should just stop building cars, and stick with the trucks. since they have so many cooperate contracts for fleet trucks, im sure that alone would keep them in some sort of resemblance of business.

you dont see too many toyota or nissan trucks painted up in railroad or utility paint schemes. plus the japanese dont even make any 3/4 or 1ton trucks right?
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