Cop fired for NOT shooting - Chicagoland Sportbikes
Chicagoland Sportbikes
 
Open Forum This forum is for all off-topic discussion.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-20-2009, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
Cruising through life
 
Muskrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,175
Location: Chicagoland
Sportbike: '11 Harley VRSCF
Years Riding: 7 years
How you found us: searched under "degenerates"
           
Cop fired for NOT shooting

for all the stories that are plastered all over the news and papers for cops who, according to people who think they know better, use excessive force and the public ridicule and backlash because of it... here is an interesting story about what happened to one cop who DIDN'T shoot.

i hope after reading this some of you begin to understand that no matter what action police choose in handling a call, someone will always second guess and judge you for your decision.

not saying what is right or wrong here, i just thought this could be an interesting discussion.

http://www.officer.com/online/articl...ion=1&id=45896

Quote:
New Orleans Officer Fired for Not Discharging Gun Fights Back

Posted: Friday, March 20, 2009
Updated: March 20th, 2009 12:45 PM EDT

BRENDAN McCARTHY
Times-Picayune (New Orleans)

Patrolling Algiers one August night, New Orleans police officer Stephen Neveaux and his partner hear a series of explosions. He drives toward the noise.

Soon, they see a man standing about 50 feet away in the street, pointing a gun. Pop, pop.

The police car pushes on. The gunman glances at the cops, then turns and fires twice again into darkness.

Neveaux, a 26-year-old officer with less than four years' experience, hesitates. A shooting -- the first he's ever witnessed -- unfolds right in front of him, but in his mind, it all seems surreal.

The moment cut to the essence of being a police officer in a city with about 200 murders and hundreds more shootings every year. A split-second decision can get a cop killed or make him kill; disgrace her or make her a hero; fill him with pride, or doubt and second-guessing.

When Neveaux's moment came that night, he chose to hold his fire and let the car crawl forward. His partner, Officer April Moses, would say later that she tried to step out, but that he ordered her back into the car. He said he thought they needed cover, that they hadn't had time to assess the situation.

Within seconds, the pops stopped. The gunman fled, with Neveaux in pursuit, his partner in the passenger seat.

The gunman dashed into a dark alley, jumped a fence and disappeared into the night. The two novice officers peeled back to the shooting scene in the 5700 block of Tullis Drive and found a man on the ground with a gunshot wound to the leg. They called Emergency Medical Services and assisted the bleeding man, who eventually recovered.

According to the New Orleans Police Department, what Neveaux did was wrong. So wrong, in fact, that internal investigators cited him for cowardice and neglect of duty. High-ranking officials conferred and confirmed. After an administrative hearing, NOPD Superintendent Warren Riley fired Neveaux.

Neveaux's superiors maintain he should have confronted the shooter. He could have fired his weapon, yelled at the suspect, flashed his lights -- or even, as an internal investigator who handled the case argued, thrown a rock at the gunman.

Anything.

After that night, word spread quickly through the station, among the rank-and-file and the bosses. Neveaux's partner, Moses, distanced herself from him. She was never reprimanded or disciplined, though she was transferred to the pawn shop unit. She still agonizes over the shooting, she has since testified.

She regrets not doing more that night. Though Neveaux was not her superior, she said he stopped her from doing the right thing.

The definition of the right thing depends on whom you ask. Shades of gray don't fit well into the black-and-white rules for police conduct.

Pull the trigger, and face the repercussions: the internal investigation, the cloud of scrutiny, the second-guessing. Don't pull the trigger -- and face similar repercussions.

Stephen Neveaux didn't pull the trigger. He pushed the gas pedal. Was that cowardice or caution?

--- Fighting back ---

In the days after his firing, Neveaux chose to fight for his job, appealing the termination to the city's Civil Service Commission. He hired an attorney, a confident cop-turned-lawyer named Eric Hessler.

What Neveaux did was not cowardice, but clear thinking, Hessler said. Neveaux needed a few seconds to grasp the situation, and he rightly held his fire. In giving aid to the gunshot victim, he fulfilled his duty. The lawyer speaks from experience.

Nine years ago, Hessler faced a similar split-second dilemma and did what Neveaux didn't: He shot.

Hessler, then an NOPD officer, had come upon a shooting in progress.

The man firing his weapon, 23-year-old Steven Hawkins, turned toward him and fired, Hessler said. Hessler reached for his service weapon and fired back, hitting Hawkins once and killing him.

After the smoke cleared, police learned Hawkins, a carjacking victim, had been shooting at his attackers in self-defense.

The police chief at the time called the incident tragic, a "police officer's nightmare."

The NOPD stood by Hessler and deemed the shooting justifiable. A grand jury cleared him of criminal charges.

The family of the deceased man sued in civil court, and a judge ordered the city last year to pay $700,000 to the man's parents.

Hessler eventually left the force, earned a law degree and went on to fight in courtrooms and civil service hearings for aggrieved officers, and for criminals as well.

"It changed my life," Hessler said. "No one wants to be put in that situation. But you are just doing your job.

"This is the dilemma that policemen are put into."

Hessler said he was told he should have taken more time to assess the situation. Yet, the immediate and natural instinct of any officer is to protect yourself, he added, and that's what Neveaux did.

"If you are a good policeman, you try to make good decisions," he said. "You sometimes don't know why you do it, but you've got to stick with it."

Since taking up Neveaux's case, Hessler has begun representing some of the officers in the internal investigation of a more high-profile case: the fatal police shooting of 22-year-old Adolph Grimes III on New Year's Day. The department, so far, has stood behind the officers who shot Grimes, saying he shot at police first.

Typically, citizen complaints against police officers revolve around the action they took: too much force, verbal abuse or attitude. Rare is the case in which an officer failed to act.

The NOPD did not respond to requests for comment on this report.

A man was arrested days after the shooting Neveaux witnessed, but his case was dropped by prosecutors.

The department also did not respond to requests for statistics on the number of terminations and investigations conducted each year by the Public Integrity Bureau.

--- Unexpected consequences ---

The disciplinary letter was dated Sept. 24 and addressed to Officer Neveaux. It's a form letter, save for the spots where decision-makers specify which rules were violated.

The department said Neveaux violated the NOPD's regulation outlined in Rule 4, paragraph 4, regarding neglect of duty. In addition, he violated Rule 7, regarding courage. For that, he received a 10-day suspension. The termination made the suspension moot.

Neveaux did not expect that. He had three-and-a-half years on the job. He patrolled, wrote reports and kept his record clean -- no complaints. Until that day. Tales of police chases, shootings and fisticuffs spread fast in police stations. Within days, the whispers got back to Neveaux. Some colleagues even confronted him.

" 'I would have shot him, I would have killed him,' " Neveaux recalled them saying.

"It's easy for everyone to say what they would have done, what I could have done," Neveaux said.

--- Victim upset ---

On Nov. 20, Neveaux walked into the modest civil service hearing room in City Hall, subdued and dressed sharply.

During the following 80 minutes, an appeal hearing, similar to a criminal case, unfolded. Such proceedings are governed by an examiner, who hears testimony and then makes a recommendation to the civil service board, which eventually renders a judgment.

In that hearing, Neveaux's whole career went under the microscope -- but none of it as intensely as the seconds after he saw the man shooting.

Lesia Mims, the police investigator who handled the case, testified Neveaux did nothing to stop the threat.

"In our line of work . . . we don't have time sometimes to think about self-preservation," she said. "We as police officers should -- we have to -- be brave."

Neveaux sat and stared dead ahead at the wall.

Mims mentioned that the gunshot victim was upset and believed police allowed the gunman to shoot him.

Next, Mims described a witness, a man who said he saw everything. Mims said she had asked the man whether Neveaux and Moses had time to stop the shooting.

The man replied: "I don't think so. It happened so fast. I think (the shooter) may have caught them unaware."

That witness also said he heard Moses say minutes after the incident that she had not intended to exit the car amid gunfire -- contradicting her testimony, in which she put blame for inaction on her partner.

According to Mims, the witness heard Moses say: "I'm not getting out of the car. I saw the guy with the gun right in front of me and everything. The gun's blazing, and I don't know if he was going to shoot me or not."

Hessler paced the room, quickly firing questions meant to pierce the internal investigation.

He asked Mims directly: What should Neveaux have done?

She stated his "primary duty" was to "render aid to the victim."

--- Upholding oath ---

Moses testified that the first gunshot came as a shock.

"And then after that, it just -- pretty much everything seemed like it went in slow motion," she said.

Moses said she should have done more.

"There's a lot of 'ifs,' " she said at the hearing.

Moses did not return phone calls seeking additional comment after the hearing.

Deputy Chief Kirk Bouyelas offered a blunt assessment of Neveaux during the hearing.

"He failed. He totally failed in every single aspect of what his job is," Bouyelas said. "It is our job to put ourselves in harm's way . . . that's what we swear an oath to do."

Eventually, Neveaux had his say.

"I didn't even notice the victim until I got on the other side of the block, after going to apprehend the perpetrator," he said. "It all happened in six seconds . . . I didn't realize the victim was shot."

He spoke softly, with his head hanging low.

"I don't think I did anything wrong that night," he said. If it happened again, he said, he'd do the same thing.

He acknowledged that he froze that night. It was the first time he had ever seen a shooting.

"Do you want your job back?" Hessler asked him. "Do you know it's dangerous?"

Neveaux replied: "I wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't."

Neveaux has been anxious since the hearing

"I'm upset, I'm down," he said. "I'm trying to hold my head high."

He is looking for a job. And he wants it to be in law enforcement.

"I loved my job," he said. "I loved solving crime, catching bad guys, helping people, making my neighborhood better."

He hopes he'll win his appeal and be a cop once again. Some people have stood by him; others haven't. He has a message for those who still question his actions that night.

"You can't say what you would have done. You weren't there."
Muskrat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-20-2009, 06:18 PM
bwa
Boom
 
bwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Kalispell, MT
Posts: 13,320
Location: Kalispell, MT
Sportbike: None :(
Years Riding: not long enough
How you found us: Crazeinc
           
Man, that's a tough one... I don't think he should've been fired though.
bwa is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-20-2009, 07:06 PM
Thee original azzhole!
 
Thunderstruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bartlett
Posts: 6,912
Location: bartlett
Sportbike: 97 900rr-rip 09/09, 69 chevelle SS, & ???
Years Riding: it doesnt matter
How you found us: i see all
           
Send a message via AIM to Thunderstruck
i gotta say cops have a very difficult job. and its a judgement call on their part. This is coming out of new orleans for petes sake, and with all the crap thats been going on there, they would think they would want a cop to be smart about things. Actually firing the cop, may have been a bad choice on the police side.

...plus my gf was with me saying "omg slow down, slow down" and I was thinking "Lose annoying squalk box in passenger seat, afford more mods and have less weight in the car and on the back of the bike"...so i dumped her and I'm single again as usual...HERE KITTY KITTY!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
pussy is the root of all evil...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunny View Post
mmmm pussy
You dont like me....i dont give a fuck...cause i'll still put ya in the hospital...me tollerating you is all that matters...
Thunderstruck is offline  
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-20-2009, 07:25 PM
YO MAMA
 
Odysseys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Posts: 60,261
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
Years Riding: a long time!
           
you guys know what i think.

and you'll be correct in thinking it.



Odysseys is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-20-2009, 07:44 PM
Thee original azzhole!
 
Thunderstruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bartlett
Posts: 6,912
Location: bartlett
Sportbike: 97 900rr-rip 09/09, 69 chevelle SS, & ???
Years Riding: it doesnt matter
How you found us: i see all
           
Send a message via AIM to Thunderstruck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
you guys know what i think.

and you'll be correct in thinking it.
LOL. good answer.

...plus my gf was with me saying "omg slow down, slow down" and I was thinking "Lose annoying squalk box in passenger seat, afford more mods and have less weight in the car and on the back of the bike"...so i dumped her and I'm single again as usual...HERE KITTY KITTY!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
pussy is the root of all evil...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunny View Post
mmmm pussy
You dont like me....i dont give a fuck...cause i'll still put ya in the hospital...me tollerating you is all that matters...
Thunderstruck is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 04:42 AM
Cuddlie as a koala
 
YZFRob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Where its free.
Posts: 7,513
Location: Where its free.
Sportbike: Which bike?
Years Riding: Too long.
How you found us: Ken offered me money to join.
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
you guys know what i think.

and you'll be correct in thinking it.
You're thinking about cake and ice cream?
YZFRob is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Registered User
 
ceptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tinley Park
Posts: 657
Location: Tinley Park
Sportbike: Honda Interceptor
Years Riding: including today?
      
Neveaux's superiors maintain he should have confronted the shooter. He could have fired his weapon, yelled at the suspect, flashed his lights -- or even, as an internal investigator who handled the case argued, thrown a rock at the gunman.

Do cops carry rocks in their police cars?
ceptor is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 10:22 AM
C2M
ǝɹoɯʎuɐ ʞɔnɟ ɐ sǝʌıƃ oɥʍ
 
C2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Crook county
Posts: 11,372
Location: Crook county
Sportbike: 636/ zzr600/ r6
Years Riding: Since 07
How you found us: bathroom stall
           
catch 22 your dammed if you do and your dammed if you don't

I hope he wakes up and realizes that if he does get his job back that they will be looking for everything and anything to run him out of there

go time traveler style and go back in time, fuck his grandma, then shoot forward in time and then fuck his mom. Then return back to present state and call him a the product of two incest whores and hes your son and show video of you plowing the both members of his family. .
C2M is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 12:08 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
 
Awesome article, and his final statement is so true! We criticize every move our officers make...but the truth is what would we do in their position...would we have any idea how to react??? No, that's why THEY are there, that's why THEY were selected and trained! And all those citizens who pass their judgement on right or wrong actions when really the line is gray, back off, you weren't there so there's no way you can possibly know ALL of the elements involved!
GsxrGrl08 is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 12:49 PM
YO MAMA
 
Odysseys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Posts: 60,261
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
Years Riding: a long time!
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by GsxrGrl08 View Post
Awesome article, and his final statement is so true! We criticize every move our officers make...but the truth is what would we do in their position...would we have any idea how to react??? No, that's why THEY are there, that's why THEY were selected and trained! And all those citizens who pass their judgement on right or wrong actions when really the line is gray, back off, you weren't there so there's no way you can possibly know ALL of the elements involved!
I hear and understand your point. But I for one know allllllll to well the choices and demands and the internal challenges they face, And them some.

So I am not part of your general assumption.




Last edited by Odysseys; 03-21-2009 at 12:52 PM.
Odysseys is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 01:20 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chicago Heights
Posts: 3,382
Location: Chicago Heights
Sportbike: 08 gsx six fiddy F
Years Riding: 1
How you found us: forum link
           
Do you leave the wounded man lay there to bleed to death? Does 1 person start running down the streets in a gun fight while the backup officer attends to the wounded? If there was more then 2 officers there do you split up and catch this guy while someone attends to the victim? Theres dozens of different ways this could of gone down. Like he said in his last line, you werent there so you dont know how you would of reacted.

2008 Suzuki gsx 650f.

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson
michowski is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 01:53 PM
YO MAMA
 
Odysseys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Posts: 60,261
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
Years Riding: a long time!
           
Trust me I know exactly how to handle that situation. Anyway this thread isn't about me.



Odysseys is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 02:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chicago Heights
Posts: 3,382
Location: Chicago Heights
Sportbike: 08 gsx six fiddy F
Years Riding: 1
How you found us: forum link
           
well either put up for shut up

2008 Suzuki gsx 650f.

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson
michowski is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 02:17 PM
YO MAMA
 
Odysseys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Posts: 60,261
Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
Years Riding: a long time!
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by michowski View Post
well either put up for shut up
you mean (put up or shut up) i think you meant.

and i do, i just cant disclose it to none of you guys, sorry no offense.



Odysseys is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 02:52 PM
Make my day!!!!!
 
wingit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rockdale, il
Posts: 3,330
Location: Rockdale, il
Sportbike: Looking at a shiny Huffy!
Years Riding: 20+ yrs.
How you found us: member
           
I don't think taking a second is grounds for termination. All 3 of them could be dead if you don't think clearly enough. it isn't like he turned and ran.

Living life! Because before you know it it is over!

Joe

FACEBOOK
wingit is offline  
post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 08:42 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,039
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskrat View Post
...i hope after reading this some of you begin to understand that no matter what action police choose in handling a call, someone will always second guess and judge you for your decision...
Def tough being a cop placed in those types of situations ... hind sight is always 20/20. It's so easy for people to judge afterwards as to what should have been done but people forget survival instinct kicks in and you may not react as you would think when put in a situation. Who knows what would have happened if he acted differently. No one got killed right??
meech is offline  
post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 09:38 AM
b boy on his k3 liter
 
b boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richton park, IL
Posts: 1,212
Location: Richton park, IL
Sportbike: 03 GSXR 1000
Years Riding: over 6 years
How you found us: friends
           
Send a message via Yahoo to b boy
I really don't like cops but he should have take some action to identify the gunman thinking and action.

b boy
03 Gsxr 1000
00 TL 1000R
USAF
USAFHG
b boy is offline  
post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 10:05 AM
Registered User
 
Kruz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West of 59, North of 88
Posts: 18,885
Location: West of 59, North of 88
Sportbike: 05 CRF50
Years Riding: "Since 1992"
How you found us: You found me
           
Shoot first....ask questions later.
Kruz is offline  
post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 10:10 AM
C2M
ǝɹoɯʎuɐ ʞɔnɟ ɐ sǝʌıƃ oɥʍ
 
C2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Crook county
Posts: 11,372
Location: Crook county
Sportbike: 636/ zzr600/ r6
Years Riding: Since 07
How you found us: bathroom stall
           
Secure the scene then tend to the wounded.

go time traveler style and go back in time, fuck his grandma, then shoot forward in time and then fuck his mom. Then return back to present state and call him a the product of two incest whores and hes your son and show video of you plowing the both members of his family. .
C2M is offline  
post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 08:07 PM
CLSB's Florida Chapter.
 
MoparBoyy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 22,652
Location: Apopka, Florida
Sportbike: Ducati
Years Riding: 3 days
How you found us: unemployment office
           
Send a message via AIM to MoparBoyy
should have ran the shooter down with the car!

-Mopar

1997 Dodge Viper GTS
2013 Dodge Dart Rallye
MoparBoyy is offline  
post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 09:54 PM
Boo boo kitty fuck
 
DroppedMyWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wdale
Posts: 2,301
Location: Wdale
Sportbike: F4i
Years Riding: Five hundred twenty-five thousand six hundred minutes
How you found us: Evil Twin
           
Send a message via AIM to DroppedMyWrench Send a message via MSN to DroppedMyWrench Send a message via Yahoo to DroppedMyWrench

Quote:
Originally Posted by catwlights View Post
Im bringing my gym shoes so I can surf the roof.....



ooooooo. I need a cape.
Sometimes you're the bug...sometimes you're the windshield
DroppedMyWrench is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chicagoland Sportbikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome