A sense of entitlement from the executive to the elderly or disabled - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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A sense of entitlement from the executive to the elderly or disabled

Perhaps this belongs in the politic hate thread.. but I am not putting it there.. As I feel it fits equally well here.. and is rather apolitical

I was wondering what some other peoples thoughts are on this.. I am just curious if I am in the minority or the majority on this one..

Let me start off by saying I have worked a # of jobs where bonuses were a norm...
Where we all hoped the "numbers came in" or the company did well.. As our bonuses were dependent on them... If the company made billions.. We would get thousands.. All that said often I had absolutely nothing to directly do with the bottom line.. That said we were at the mercy of the company, the stock market, and really whatever factors came to play.. Hell if our CEO decided to nail an escort and found himself on the front page of all the papers and then fired.. and our stock tanked.. We might be outraged, but really.. What could we do? No bonus. Firm lost an assload...

So here is what I don't get.. There is all this talk about Executive Compensation and bonuses.. I would have thought these two things would be seperate.. One is your pay.. It's what guaranteed (as long as you have your job) and bonus.. It's what comes from both a job well done, and the company doing well.. Right?

I hear all kinds of people on one side of the spectrum supporting executives taking 7 and 8 figure bonuses in the face of their firm failing (possibly at their hands.. possibly somewhat on purpose (short term gains at the cost of long term... only?)

I don't see how this isn't considered an inflated sense of entitlement...

Now on the other end of the spectrum.. Social Security.. Even with what happened to my 401k.. I wish I could opt out of this system.. but I can't ...
every month thousands of my dollars (from myself and from my employer) go off to this mysterious general fund of funds... I am forced to pay for this savings account that isn't my own.. but if I get old or injured and dip into it I am lowlife scum with some sense of entitlement..

Or... The auto workers.. They put in their 20-30 years.. are retired now.. and we should pull the rug out of them.. They signed a deal.. put in the time.. and built a life around a specific set of rules.. Now we call them entitled... WTF? They had a contract.. They did their job... and years later... The rules change.... and now they were wrong all that time?

I am running out of time on this.. So I will cut this short for now..
Perhaps someone can explain to me how one side is ok.. the other isn't?

It seems to me that an old person who put in his time.. his life working.. putting HIS money away to a system is less a person with a sense of entitlement..
Than some bank or insurance executive.. Who bankrupted their company.. and is living on corporate welfare.. Yet expects the taxpayers to food the bill for them getting bonuses equal to 50 people or mores annual salaries..??


Last thing.. I am sitting at work..
I took a large paycut when I left the bank (laid off during a buyout... my job is now in India)...
Then I came here...
Less money.. Then a pay cut..
then an hour cut (on top of the pay cut..)
and then my wife got laid off... (and she was putting in 60-80 hours average for them..)

I'm still not complaining.. To be honest I am glad they cut our hours and pay rather than cut even more people... This will turn around ... things will go back (hopefully) and we are all in this together..

So.. if I took all these cuts.. for the most part without complaint...
Why are these executives whining about not getting multi million dollar bonuses? Where is their sense of shame? How can you cut major chunks of your workforce .. and then just ram the equivelent of dozens of peoples salaries and lives... in your pocket and not feel like crap...

and how is that not a sense of entitlement?



I guess I just don't understand
I'll try to clean this up a bit as soon as I get a moment.. Lost a third of my team due to all this crap.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:26 PM
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I will point out that there are two types of bonuses, and lumping them together, as you are doing above, is painting a false picture.

The type of bonus you are focusing on, is what one would call a merit bonus. You do well, your company does well, you get rewarded.

The other type of bonus is the retention bonus. The please don't jump ship, stick around and keep working your ass off for us though our ship is sinking, and we'll give you X.

What seems to be unclear, is whether the bonuses given to AIG executives, are the former or the latter. If it is the former, then by all means, they are unwarranted. But if it is the latter, then that is a different matter entirely and not at all based on entitlement.

Read the following open resignation letter, from an AIG exec, presented to the New York Times. Presuming his words are to be believed, then AIG execs being hung out to dry for accepting RETENTION bonuses, while being portrayed to the public as accepting MERIT bonuses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/op...ml?ref=opinion
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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:43 PM
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Usually, a normal person does not want to retain the 'talent' that f*cked the company up in the first place.

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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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Usually, a normal person does not want to retain the 'talent' that f*cked the company up in the first place.
Obviously you are not a good old boy
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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I will point out that there are two types of bonuses, and lumping them together, as you are doing above, is painting a false picture.

The type of bonus you are focusing on, is what one would call a merit bonus. You do well, your company does well, you get rewarded.

The other type of bonus is the retention bonus. The please don't jump ship, stick around and keep working your ass off for us though our ship is sinking, and we'll give you X.

What seems to be unclear, is whether the bonuses given to AIG executives, are the former or the latter. If it is the former, then by all means, they are unwarranted. But if it is the latter, then that is a different matter entirely and not at all based on entitlement.

Read the following open resignation letter, from an AIG exec, presented to the New York Times. Presuming his words are to be believed, then AIG execs being hung out to dry for accepting RETENTION bonuses, while being portrayed to the public as accepting MERIT bonuses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/op...ml?ref=opinion
I read the article actually.
I just don't understand why the executive leadership of these firms doesn't share in the pain they are a big part of....
They profit handsomly on the upstroke.. On the downstroke they should take an equal or greater downstroke.. Sort of a "comes with the territory" thing..
Kind of like company owners do...
Therefore they would have an encouragment to succeed..
A retention bonus no matter what? or for who you know?

So..
You get a paycheck
You get a retention bonus
You get a success bonus..
and even if the company goes bankrupt you get at least 2 of the 3?

What's the downside?

and why is it considered a sense of entitlement to expect you are going to get all this extra pay no matter what happens?

and why is it a sense of entitlement when a union worker puts in his 20-30 years and expects his insurance to continue.. or when someone works their 40 years and expects the social security they put in their entire working life (and yes.. they call it an entitlement)

maybe I am just complaining about definitions.

I have no problem doing for myself.. and to be honest.. even with all the cuts we have had.. I am doing fine.. We are doing fine.. Just seems greedy to be expecting 7 figure bonuses while your company is swirling down the toilet.. only saved by the govt putting a big net at the bottom...

taking the tax money of millions of americans.. funneling it into your company.. and you taking exorbitant bonuses.. ?
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 02:55 PM
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a bonus shoudl be just that, a bonus, something un expected and unguarnateed

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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Usually, a normal person does not want to retain the 'talent' that f*cked the company up in the first place.
REad the whole thing

Quote:
...
I am proud of everything I have done for the commodity and equity divisions of A.I.G.-F.P. I was in no way involved in or responsible for the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.

After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company during which A.I.G. reassured us many times we would be rewarded in March 2009 we in the financial products unit have been betrayed by A.I.G. and are being unfairly persecuted by elected officials. In response to this, I will now leave the company and donate my entire post-tax retention payment to those suffering from the global economic downturn. My intent is to keep none of the money myself.

I take this action after 11 years of dedicated, honorable service to A.I.G. I can no longer effectively perform my duties in this dysfunctional environment, nor am I being paid to do so. Like you, I was asked to work for an annual salary of $1, and I agreed out of a sense of duty to the company and to the public officials who have come to its aid. Having now been let down by both, I can no longer justify spending 10, 12, 14 hours a day away from my family for the benefit of those who have let me down....

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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Rob

I read that...
and I must admit.. Nowhere in the news did I see that these guys were working for $1 a year

That said.. It almost seems like they or the admin is trying to drum up a nice class war...

How can you justify taking enormous bonuses while you are slaughtering all the jobs below you?
It makes people angry.. and rightly so...
To be honest it does seem to be a sense of entitlement to me
I would have loved to get a raise and a bonus this year
that wont happen
i had nothing to do with this.. but my family and I are paying the price.. and I assure you we had a lot less to do with this mess than the people in the financial products arm at AIG...

Good to hear he is working hard... "After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company "

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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:12 PM
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a bonus shoudl be just that, a bonus, something un expected and unguarnateed
It however should be measurable otherwise it offers zero incentive and becomes completely subjective.
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:13 PM
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REad the whole thing
Only 1 person got a bonus?

Everyone Exaggerates

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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Only 1 person got a bonus?
ummmmm

Quote:
I was in no way involved in or responsible for the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.

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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:31 PM
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It however should be measurable otherwise it offers zero incentive and becomes completely subjective.
im not contestng that, I just feel that they cease to be a "bonus" when it is guaranteed adn written into a contract. preformance/merit bonuses have a place I dont think that retention payments do, thats what your paycheck/salary is for

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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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ummmmm
No?
He just worked for the cockbag maybe.. Seemed like he was pretty high in the dept that was "supposedly" responsible..


admittedly this is from that rolling stone article.. so go ahead and consider the source

Quote:
That guy — the Patient Zero of the global economic meltdown — was one Joseph Cassano, the head of a tiny, 400-person unit within the company called AIG Financial Products, or AIGFP. Cassano, a pudgy, balding Brooklyn College grad with beady eyes and way too much forehead, cut his teeth in the Eighties working for Mike Milken, the granddaddy of modern Wall Street debt alchemists. Milken, who pioneered the creative use of junk bonds, relied on messianic genius and a whole array of insider schemes to evade detection while wreaking financial disaster. Cassano, by contrast, was just a greedy little turd with a knack for selective accounting who ran his scam right out in the open, thanks to Washington's deregulation of the Wall Street casino. "It's all about the regulatory environment," says a government source involved with the AIG bailout. "These guys look for holes in the system, for ways they can do trades without government interference. Whatever is unregulated, all the action is going to pile into that."

link for the long of attention span
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...e_big_takeover
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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 03:55 PM
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ummmmm
So, they know who they were and SOME are still there... or they are simply guessing/speculating/passing the buck and it was someone else's fault... but give us our money

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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:06 PM
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No?
He just worked for the cockbag maybe.. Seemed like he was pretty high in the dept that was "supposedly" responsible..


admittedly this is from that rolling stone article.. so go ahead and consider the source



link for the long of attention span
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...e_big_takeover
Here's the NY Times version
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/bu...l?pagewanted=4

Cassano is long gone. I'm curious who the other folks are.

The point is, not all of the people getting retention bonuses are the "'talent' that f*cked the company up in the first place." Most appear to just be the ones that stayed behind to help clean up the mess that others like Cassano made.

Personally, I think they should have been smart enough to jump ship along time ago. Big brother wants to handle it, let them.

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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:15 PM
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How is it entitlement, if a contractual retention agreement is made?

And Jason, I disagree with you. Retention bonuses have their place outside of one's salary.

If you are running a sinking ship, but are trying to set things straight, and need certain people to stick around to complete task X, Y, and Z, you're going to give them an incentive to do so. Else they have no motivation to remain through the end.

Example, my buddy worked for an EDS team stationed at the Janesville GM plant, which was recently shut down. EDS gave teammembers some options to move on, but they still needed a crew to remain until the very end, to fully close the otherwise dead plant. Key personnel were offered retention bonuses in order to do so, lest they begin job hunting immediately and leave before the closure is complete.

How can you, as an employee, "justify" only your paycheck as motivation to remain with a company that is going through difficult times or terminating?
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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How is it entitlement, if a contractual retention agreement is made?

And Jason, I disagree with you. Retention bonuses have their place outside of one's salary.

If you are running a sinking ship, but are trying to set things straight, and need certain people to stick around to complete task X, Y, and Z, you're going to give them an incentive to do so. Else they have no motivation to remain through the end.

Example, my buddy worked for an EDS team stationed at the Janesville GM plant, which was recently shut down. EDS gave teammembers some options to move on, but they still needed a crew to remain until the very end, to fully close the otherwise dead plant. Key personnel were offered retention bonuses in order to do so, lest they begin job hunting immediately and leave before the closure is complete.

How can you, as an employee, "justify" only your paycheck as motivation to remain with a company that is going through difficult times or terminating?
Ok..
So then part 2
Why is it an entitlement program when people who pay into a system use it?

As usualy.. Some personal things have led me down the path of asking this question..

Those are excellent points, but how are they more or less entitlement or something for nothing than say.. Social Security.. I don't want to be in Social Security.. but I am forced.. So.. Why should I not collect? or unemployment... or a pension

How are the very same people who bash on others (union.. pensioners) able to take govt handouts to the tune of millions?
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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:49 PM
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Great article, thanks for sharing this with us.

Retention bonuses to guys that are working for a $1 a year is a completely different thing than someone getting a performance bonus. Performance bonuses are typcially tied to inviduvidual, group, or company performance (or a mixture of some or all of the categories).

Working 12-14 hours a day for a company that you KNOW is toast and then not paying the only people that can right the ship, after the perpetrators are long gone... yeah, that makes sense.

They should have in investigation, and track down the folks that caused the problem. Of course, they didn't do anything illegal as far as we know at this point. they were just greedy and stupid... but smart enough to get out apparently.

The sad fact is that the CEO didn't disclose this info and defend his GOOD people. Can you imagine the recruiter at AIU? Come join us, work long hard hours for a company that everyone hates. Sign this contract, we won't honor it when it becomes politically untennable, and we'll let you take the heat for what people in other divisions have done to the company.

Yeah, great one. And how is it that we expect to get our money back from this company?

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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gconsier View Post
How are the very same people who bash on others (union.. pensioners) able to take govt handouts to the tune of millions?

Because it's wrong when someone else gets something and you don't...
...that 'perceived' injustice.

That's the oversimplification of it and it's pretty much true.

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Because it's wrong when someone else gets something and you don't...
...that 'perceived' injustice.

That's the oversimplification of it and it's pretty much true.
And so, yet once again.... (of course, not updated to the current NEW burdens on the rich):


The Dinner Lesson

It seemed that 10 men decided to have a business lunch once a week. They always met in the same restaurant and the bill was always, $100.00, for all 10 men. If each man was responsible for his share of the bill that would be, $10.00, each. The men decided to divide the bill based upon their ability to pay. Using an agreed upon formula the following payment arraignment was worked out based upon income.

Men 1-4 who made the least amount of money paid nothing.
Man 5 paid $ 1.00
Man 6 paid $ 3.00
Man 7 paid $ 7.00
Man 8 paid $12.00
Man 9 paid $18.00
Man 10 paid $59.00

After several weeks the owner of the restaurant told the men that because they were such good customers he was reducing the bill by $20.00. Their dilemma was how to divide up the, $20.00. If each person got the same amount then the first 4 men would be getting money back but they never paid anything for the dinners. After much discussion and no resolve the owner offered the following suggestion which they all agreed to.

Original Payment New Payment $ Amount Saved % Saved

Men 1-4 paid $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $0.00 0%
Man 5 paid $ 1.00 $ 0.00 $1.00 100%
Man 6 paid $ 3.00 $ 2.00 $1.00 33%
Man 7 paid $ 7.00 $ 5.00 $2.00 28%
Man 8 paid $12.00 $ 9.00 $3.00 25%
Man 9 paid $18.00 $14.00 $4.00 22%
Man 10 paid $59.00 $50.00 $9.00 15%

Once out side the men began to argue about the settlement. Man 5 said he only got, $1.00, while Man 10 received, $9.00. Men 1-4 were upset because the received nothing. They said that the cut only benefited the rich and the poor got nothing. They were upset so they beat up Man 10 and left him. The next week they met for lunch as usual except man 10 did not show up. When the new bill arrived the men discovered that between them they did not have enough money to pay even half of the bill.

In this story we see a simplified version of the Federal Income Tax. According to an article in the "New York Times" 80% of the taxes are paid by 20% of the people highest income people. Any time you have a tax cut the people who pay taxes are going to get the money. The next time you hear of a tax cut and the media tells you that the wealthy are getting all the money, remember they are paying the taxes.

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:15 PM
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And so, yet once again.... (of course, not updated to the current NEW burdens on the rich):

The Dinner Lesson. . .
I love the use of the word burden...

Meson Sabinka, Sat night.. 22 of us out for a Bday dinner. Amount shelled out $1295. 20 people paid $32 a head. 2 people paid $327.50 a head (guess who). All had a good time. No one felt like there was a 'burden'. Man#10 has nothing to bitch about

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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Do you have ANY idea how expensive insurance on a Ferrari is?!?!?
I'm assuming most of these people are over 25
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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:28 PM
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I love the use of the word burden...

Meson Sabinka, Sat night.. 22 of us out for a Bday dinner. Amount shelled out $1295. 20 people paid $32 a head. 2 people paid $327.50 a head (guess who). All had a good time. No one felt like there was a 'burden'. Man#10 has nothing to bitch about
Man number 10 wasn't bitchin, the rest of them were. So he finally gave up and left them to pay their own bill.

The new burden was in direct reference to the new Obama love for sharing the wealth.

And I can relate to paying more than my share, I have been doing so happily most of my life. Glad to hear that others are fine with it as well. It isn't the overpaying that bothers me, it is the expectation that I am supposed to. I don't need appreciation either, as I am sure that you don't.

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Last edited by Wink; 03-25-2009 at 05:31 PM.
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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:34 PM
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Man number 10 wasn't bitchin, the rest of them were. So he finally gave up and left them to pay their own bill.

The new burden was in direct reference to the new Obama love for sharing the wealth.

And I can relate to paying more than my share, I have been doing so happily most of my life. Glad to hear that others are fine with it as well. It isn't the overpaying that bothers me, it is the expectation that I am supposed to. I don't need appreciation either, as I am sure that you don't.
'burden' implies hardship. I'd argue that some paying 'their share' would be a greater burden.

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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I am so personally sick and tired of that lame argument.
It's only half an argument...
and that's all I am going to say to it.
While I would perhaps even agree on flat taxing... I while not agree with flat amount taxing..

ie.. Sure.. ok.. Fine.. everyone pays 35%
no more cheats, no more holes, 35%

but a flat amount tax...

Well.. as well off as you may consider yourself.. Poor souls like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates would feel they are getting screwed over by what you are paying now.... To them you are but a man 6 or a man 7...

It is very simple.
If you make more money you pay more tax.
Or you should.
The truth of the matter is .. once you go over 500k or so.. Most of those people tend to pay a lot less than their fair share.. At that point creative accounting starts making more sense.

So... at 100k or 200k or.. 400k.. whatever it is you make.. Chances are Warren Buffet pays less %wise in taxes than you do...

But that's 100% fair in your example.. Just because he makes more he shouldn't have to pay more



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And so, yet once again.... (of course, not updated to the current NEW burdens on the rich):


The Dinner Lesson

It seemed that 10 men decided to have a business lunch once a week. They always met in the same restaurant and the bill was always, $100.00, for all 10 men. If each man was responsible for his share of the bill that would be, $10.00, each. The men decided to divide the bill based upon their ability to pay. Using an agreed upon formula the following payment arraignment was worked out based upon income.

Men 1-4 who made the least amount of money paid nothing.
Man 5 paid $ 1.00
Man 6 paid $ 3.00
Man 7 paid $ 7.00
Man 8 paid $12.00
Man 9 paid $18.00
Man 10 paid $59.00

After several weeks the owner of the restaurant told the men that because they were such good customers he was reducing the bill by $20.00. Their dilemma was how to divide up the, $20.00. If each person got the same amount then the first 4 men would be getting money back but they never paid anything for the dinners. After much discussion and no resolve the owner offered the following suggestion which they all agreed to.

Original Payment New Payment $ Amount Saved % Saved

Men 1-4 paid $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $0.00 0%
Man 5 paid $ 1.00 $ 0.00 $1.00 100%
Man 6 paid $ 3.00 $ 2.00 $1.00 33%
Man 7 paid $ 7.00 $ 5.00 $2.00 28%
Man 8 paid $12.00 $ 9.00 $3.00 25%
Man 9 paid $18.00 $14.00 $4.00 22%
Man 10 paid $59.00 $50.00 $9.00 15%

Once out side the men began to argue about the settlement. Man 5 said he only got, $1.00, while Man 10 received, $9.00. Men 1-4 were upset because the received nothing. They said that the cut only benefited the rich and the poor got nothing. They were upset so they beat up Man 10 and left him. The next week they met for lunch as usual except man 10 did not show up. When the new bill arrived the men discovered that between them they did not have enough money to pay even half of the bill.

In this story we see a simplified version of the Federal Income Tax. According to an article in the "New York Times" 80% of the taxes are paid by 20% of the people highest income people. Any time you have a tax cut the people who pay taxes are going to get the money. The next time you hear of a tax cut and the media tells you that the wealthy are getting all the money, remember they are paying the taxes.
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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:54 PM
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I believe the last study showed that a flat 10% tax would increase the overall federal revenue and would of course, eliminate thousand of pages of tax code, and reduce IRS, accounting and legal work forces.

With regard to share. I was referring to equal share, not fair share. I agree that "to those much is given, much is required".

===========
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 05:57 PM
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I believe the last study showed that a flat 10% tax would increase the overall federal revenue and would of course, eliminate thousand of pages of tax code, and reduce IRS, accounting and legal work forces.

With regard to share. I was referring to equal share, not fair share. I agree that "to those much is given, much is required".
The person who can only make 10 grand for his family would certainly miss that thousand bucks each year... Alternatively, someone who made 500K and had to 'make do' with 450K wouldn't be hurting or eating dog food while trying to stay warm in the winter time...

Everyone Exaggerates

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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 06:02 PM
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The person who can only make 10 grand for his family would certainly miss that thousand bucks each year... Alternatively, someone who made 500K and had to 'make do' with 450K wouldn't be hurting or eating dog food while trying to stay warm in the winter time...
Says the person who doesn't have to buy their 16 year old a lexus for her birthday...
























Ok, I'll stop making random ass comments in this thread.
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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 06:24 PM
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The person who can only make 10 grand for his family would certainly miss that thousand bucks each year... Alternatively, someone who made 500K and had to 'make do' with 450K wouldn't be hurting or eating dog food while trying to stay warm in the winter time...
Does it matter?

What happened to getting a new or better skill set? I worked at Burger King. I got over it and did other things. Certainly is a motivating opportunity.

Why should someone who works hard and develops value in their work be forced to give part of their work to someone else? If they don't give that, they are said to be selfish. Well, hell yeah, they are. They did work for it, didn't they? If they don't separate some of that work they do out for "the common good", they will be forced to go to jail, have their property seized, or have their wages garnished. That's theft by force of government.

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