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post #1 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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State Government now making Medical Decisions for people

Who the hell does our government think they are telling this lady how to run her life and what medical decisions she needs to make. I dont agree with her decisions but our Gov. is now handling individual case by case medical decisions? Are you kidding me?



http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...fMK-wD98A0GS80

NEW ULM, Minn. (AP) Authorities nationwide were on the lookout Wednesday for a mother and her 13-year-old cancer-stricken son who fled after refusing the chemotherapy that doctors say could save the boy's life.

Colleen Hauser and her son, Daniel, who has Hodgkin's lymphoma, apparently left their southern Minnesota home sometime after a doctor's appointment and court-ordered X-ray on Monday showed his tumor had grown.

Brown County District Judge John Rodenberg, who had ruled last week that Daniel's parents were medically neglecting him, issued an arrest warrant Tuesday for Colleen Hauser and ruled her in contempt of court. Rodenberg also ordered that Daniel be placed in foster care and immediately evaluated by a cancer specialist for treatment.

The family belongs to a religious group that believes in "natural" healing methods. Daniel has testified he believed chemotherapy would kill him and told the judge that if anyone tried to force him to take it, "I'd fight it. I'd punch them and I'd kick them."

The boy's father, Anthony Hauser, testified he didn't know where his wife and son were but had made no attempt to find them. He testified he last saw his son Monday morning, and he saw his wife only briefly that evening when she said she was leaving "for a time."

As of Wednesday morning, the mother and son still had not been found, said Carl Rolloff, a sheriff's dispatcher.

Officials distributed the arrest warrant nationwide. Brown County Sheriff Rich Hoffman said Tuesday that investigators were following some leads locally, but declined to elaborate.

"It's absolutely crazy. It's very disappointing," James Olson, the attorney representing Brown County Family Services. "We're trying to do what's right for this young man."

A message left at the Hauser home in Sleepy Eye early Wednesday wasn't immediately returned. But in an interview in Wednesday's editions of the Star Tribune of Minneapolis, Anthony Hauser said he knew places where his wife might have gone though he did not know where she was.

He said he and his wife had a plan for Tuesday's hearing and he was a "bit disappointed" she didn't follow it. "We were going to present a treatment plan to the court. If they didn't go with it, we would appeal it," he told the newspaper.

"I know many people around here who have had cancer, they did the chemo, it would come back," Hauser told the newspaper. "They did the chemo again and again and they are all in the grave. Chemo isn't foolproof."

Daniel's Hodgkin's lymphoma is considered highly curable with chemotherapy and radiation, but the boy quit chemo after a single treatment.

The judge has said Daniel, who has a learning disability and cannot read, did not understand the risks and benefits of chemotherapy and didn't believe he was ill.

The Hausers are Roman Catholic and also believe in the "do no harm" philosophy of the Nemenhah Band, a Missouri-based religious group that believes in natural healing methods advocated by some American Indians. Colleen Hauser testified earlier that she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives.

The founder of Nemenhah, Philip Cloudpiler Landis, said it was a bad idea for Colleen Hauser to flee with her son.

"She should have gone to court," Landis said. "It's how we work these things out. You don't solve anything by disregarding the order of the judge."

Anthony Hauser now agrees that Daniel needs to be taken back to a doctor for re-evaluation for the best treatment, said Calvin Johnson, an attorney for the parents.

The family's doctor, James Joyce, testified by telephone that he examined Daniel on Monday, and that an X-ray showed his tumor had grown to the size it was when he was first diagnosed.

"He had basically gotten back all the trouble he had in January," the doctor said.

Joyce testified that he offered to make appointments for Daniel with oncologists, but the Hausers declined. He also said he tried to give Daniel more information about lymphoma but the boy, his mother and lawyer Susan Daya left in a rush.

"Under Susan Daya's urging, they indicated they had other places to go," Joyce said.

Daya did not immediately respond to a call Tuesday from The Associated Press. The court also tried to reach her during the hearing, but got no answer.

Daniel's lymphoma was diagnosed in January, and six rounds of chemotherapy were recommended.

Minnesota statutes require parents to provide necessary medical care for a child, Rodenberg wrote. The statutes say alternative and complementary health care methods aren't enough.

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post #2 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:11 AM
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This is nothing new. If the gov't feels you are neglecting your child they will intervene or take the child from you. This has always been the case.

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post #3 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:14 AM
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Right, who is the government to tell anyone what to do with their body or child.
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post #4 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:17 AM
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Its a tough situation. Natural Healing advocates end up doing more harm to themselves and their loved ones, but it's really their choice to die in the peace in which they feel they want to die.

The intentions of the law here are to save a life, but in this case the boy doesn't want treatment as well, so might as well let him die (as is the inevitable in this case) and butt out.

If the boy wanted treatment badly, and didn't believe in the Natural Healing way, then I'd side with the law however...

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post #5 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:17 AM
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Not understanding why the government stepping in to help a 13 year old boy who doesn't know what's best for him is a bad thing...ESPECIALLY when his mother is calling all the shots!
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post #6 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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Hope your not for Nationalized Healthcare.

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post #7 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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so I suppose if someone has a DNR wish- the Gov. should step in and keep someone alive if they feel they could have another week to live?
My wife is a nurse and this happens all the time-Doctors not obeying a DNR

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post #8 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:21 AM
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so I suppose if someone has a DNR wish- the Gov. should step in and keep someone alive if they feel they could have another week to live?
My wife is a nurse and this happens all the time-Doctors not obeying a DNR
Can a minor even sign a DNR solo? Clearly the issue here is the patient in question is a minor.

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post #9 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:22 AM
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Its a tough situation. Natural Healing advocates end up doing more harm to themselves and their loved ones, but it's really their choice to die in the peace in which they feel they want to die.

The intentions of the law here are to save a life, but in this case the boy doesn't want treatment as well, so might as well let him die (as is the inevitable in this case) and butt out.

If the boy wanted treatment badly, and didn't believe in the Natural Healing way, then I'd side with the law however...
A 13 year old boy doesn't know what's best for him. It's like all those 13-16 year olds that want to have babies because they think they're ready...they have no fucking clue what they're doing, and neither does a 13 year old boy with a learning disability dying of a tumor that's highly curable.
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post #10 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:23 AM
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I don't blame him from running from chemo. I heard it's quite painful and discomforting.

Fucking hippies. Hope the boy is ok.
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post #11 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:27 AM
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i was thinking christian scientist.. but .. from my quick skim of the article it looks like they are roman catholic - american indian...

How does that work together?

I've never heard of that mix before.. not that I keep up on this type of thing.. but seems the two kind of run at odds of each other a bit.. ?
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post #12 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Can a minor even sign a DNR solo? Clearly the issue here is the patient in question is a minor.
but he has both parents who are making decisions- he's not neglected. The P's just aren't making the decision the state thinks they should

again-I dont agree with their decisions but..

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post #13 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:38 AM
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i was thinking christian scientist.. but .. from my quick skim of the article it looks like they are roman catholic - american indian...

How does that work together?

I've never heard of that mix before.. not that I keep up on this type of thing.. but seems the two kind of run at odds of each other a bit.. ?
not really.

Way back when, when the settlers from Spain, France and other catholic nations came over, they went about converting the natives to Catholicism. Just like in the Philippines.

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post #14 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:40 AM
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And the kid is "inconvenient" and the parents obviously don't want him. Its a woman's right to choose you know. Its just a little bit delayed in this case.

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post #15 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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And the kid is "inconvenient" and the parents obviously don't want him.
how did you draw this conclusion?

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post #16 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:42 AM
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how did you draw this conclusion?
Sarcasm, based on the expense of cancer treatment. Stop treatment, less bills and they get rid of the responsibility.

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post #17 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:43 AM
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Science >Religion

Kid doesn't know any better... Just like those brainwashed kids that are raised believing that being wife number 5 at the age of 10 in a compound somewhere is ok...

Adults should be able to toss their life away... minors... nay. If someone really wants to avoid modern medicine so be it... but I strongly disagree if at some point the kid is in agonizing pain... Hell, make him/her comfortable at least.

Fawking zealots piss me off...

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By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer – Tue May 19, 7:39 pm ET
WAUSAU, Wis. – A mother accused of rejecting medical treatment and relying on prayer as her 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes believed people got sick because they sinned, a former friend said Tuesday at the woman's homicide trial.
Althea Wormgoor and her husband described praying with Leilani Neumann and her family in Madeline Neumann's last hours, a scene that turned to chaos and tearful pleas to heaven when the girl stopped breathing.
Leilani Neumann also attributed sickness to demons, Wormgoor testified. She said that when one of her sons got sick, Neumann thought his vomiting was to rid his body of demons.
"That was a little much," Wormgoor testified.
Neumann, 41, has been charged with second-degree reckless homicide in Madeline's March 23, 2008, death at the family's rural Weston home.
Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline, who had become so weak she couldn't walk or talk. They say Neumann recklessly killed her daughter by praying instead of rushing her to a doctor.
The mother has said the family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God. The defense has said Neumann and her husband, who is awaiting trial, didn't know how sick their daughter was until it was too late.
Wormgoor told the jury that Neumann didn't believe in doctors or medicine.
"Basically, you pray and do nothing but pray," she said. Wormgoor added, however, that Neumann once asked her for an aspirin to treat a headache.
Wormgoor, who has four children, testified that her family moved from California to Wisconsin in January 2008 to start a second coffee business with the Neumanns and participate in their weekly Bible studies. The Neumanns also had lived in California, and the families had known each other for years.
But Wormgoor said that by March 2008, she and her husband had realized they disagreed with the Neumanns about the business and faith healing.
Wormgoor said she would not have let one of her daughters get as sick as Madeline without getting medical help.
Wormgoor said she and her family went to the Neumanns' home the day Madeline died. Leilani Neumann had urged them to come, saying Madeline was on the floor, not talking, eating or drinking, she said.
The Wormgoors prayed with the Neumanns. Leilani Neumann raised her hands in the air, calling her daughter's illness a test of faith and a chance for God to show his power, Wormgoor said.
"'Oh Lord, you can heal diabetes. You can heal cancer,'" Wormgoor said Neumann prayed. "'I am praying that God is going to bring her back from this and make her 10 times better.'"
After about five minutes of prayer, Leilani Neumann indicated her daughter appeared better than the previous night, her breathing stronger, Wormgoor said.
Suddenly, Madeline's mouth "twitched," she said.
"To me, it looked like she was gasping for air," Wormgoor said. "It was a twitch that scared me. You are telling me, is she getting better? But right then I am not seeing it. I panicked."
Wormgoor rushed to call 911, but her husband got to a phone first and made the call.
Randall Wormgoor testified that he had urged Neumann's husband, Dale, to take Madeline to a hospital.
"I said, 'Dale, if that was my daughter, I would be taking her to a doctor," Randall Wormgoor said. "He said at some point, 'Don't you think it has crossed my mind.'"
Randall Wormgoor said he tried to reason with Dale Neumann, saying God worked through doctors just as the Neumanns worked through their coffee business to try to do their ministry. But then chaos broke out as word spread that Madeline was not breathing.
As the girl was being rushed to an ambulance, the mother remarked that all she needed was fluids, attendant Jason Russ testified.
Dr. Ivan Sador, a diabetes expert at Marshfield Clinic who examined medical records and police reports, said Madeline would have had high blood sugar levels for two months and organ damage three or four days before she died.
"Absolutely noticeable" symptoms of serious trouble became evident 24 hours before she died, and the girl became "very, very uncomfortable," the doctor said.
Still, Madeline's life could have been saved "very late into the day of her death" with the proper treatment, the doctor said.
If convicted, Leilani Neumann faces up to 25 years in prison. Dale Neumann also has been charged with second-degree reckless homicide. His trial is set for July.
Testimony in Leilani Neumann's trial was to resume Wednesday.

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post #18 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 2weelpilot View Post
but he has both parents who are making decisions- he's not neglected. The P's just aren't making the decision the state thinks they should

again-I dont agree with their decisions but..
He's not neglected? They're witholding life saving treatment, at what point is it neglect?

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post #19 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:47 AM
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Science >Religion

Kid doesn't know any better... Just like those brainwashed kids that are raised believing that being wife number 5 at the age of 10 in a compound somewhere is ok...

Adults should be able to toss their life away... minors... nay. If someone really wants to avoid modern medicine so be it... but I strongly disagree if at some point the kid is in agonizing pain... Hell, make him/her comfortable at least.

Fawking zealots piss me off...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090519/...s_prayer_death
Just like those brainwashed kids that think America is the best country, Christianity is the best religion, and they should all listen to doctors.
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post #20 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:47 AM
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not really.

Way back when, when the settlers from Spain, France and other catholic nations came over, they went about converting the natives to Catholicism. Just like in the Philippines.
I don't think these are Indians that were converting..
These are whiteys who are worshiping another lord other than jesus...
the earth.
isn't that a sin?
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post #21 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:48 AM
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He's not neglected? They're witholding life saving treatment, at what point is it neglect?
They're withholding life saving treatment in the state's eyes.

In their eyes, they are stopping treatment that will kill him.

Tough situation.

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post #22 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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He's not neglected? They're witholding life saving treatment, at what point is it neglect?
based on whose values? Yours?
Their religeous beliefs say no Chemo.

So everyone that has Cancer going forward gets chemo? Because the state says so?

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post #23 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:51 AM
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I don't think these are Indians that were converting..
These are whiteys who are worshiping another lord other than jesus...
the earth.
isn't that a sin?
ahh, yeah...re-read it.

I don't see anything about worshipping the Earth in there, though.

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post #24 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:52 AM
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based on whose values? Yours?
Their religeous beliefs say no Chemo.

So everyone that has Cancer going forward gets chemo? Because the state says so?
The Gov't just wants to help, with their big hearts and all-knowing wisdom. They should be trusted to make all of our decisions.

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post #25 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:53 AM
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Just like those brainwashed kids that think America is the best country, Christianity is the best religion, and they should all listen to doctors.
I feel especially sorry for them.

They need to take off the blinders and try a different church...


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post #26 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:54 AM
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ahh, yeah...re-read it.

I don't see anything about worshipping the Earth in there, though.
years of faithful whitey broadcast monitoring has taught me that all indians had a magical (especially if they are old) link with the earth - and that they all worship the great spirit... which again is the earth...

then again.. uberchristian chuck norris who i am pretty sure isnt even acting when he plays walker texas ranger is part indian and has mystical indian skills as well.. so perhaps they are followers of chuck... which totally makes sense to me
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post #27 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 2weelpilot View Post
based on whose values? Yours?
Their religeous beliefs say no Chemo.

So everyone that has Cancer going forward gets chemo? Because the state says so?
Of course not. Again the problem here is he is a minor and his parents are making decisions for him, decisions that the medical community strongly opposes. I'm not weighing in either way, but lets be honest these people are kooks and likely will kill their child by not allowing this treatment.

Chris
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post #28 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 2weelpilot View Post
so I suppose if someone has a DNR wish- the Gov. should step in and keep someone alive if they feel they could have another week to live?
My wife is a nurse and this happens all the time-Doctors not obeying a DNR
That's not the same thing. Obviously, this kid is being given some bad information:

Quote:
The family belongs to a religious group that believes in "natural" healing methods. Daniel has testified he believed chemotherapy would kill him and told the judge that if anyone tried to force him to take it, "I'd fight it. I'd punch them and I'd kick them."

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post #29 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:01 AM
Serious inquiries only
 
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That's not the same thing. Obviously, this kid is being given some bad information:
chemo can kill, it's a poison. He's not being misinformed.
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post #30 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Failed rehab
 
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If a 13 year old can choose to kill another in order to maintain control over their body, without even needing parental permission in some states, why should this kid not be allowed to kill himself to maintain that control?

Attorney-at-Law: Doing my part to contribute to the downfall of western society.
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