How CLUNKERS Works... - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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How CLUNKERS Works...

From a real "car guy" out in Los Angeles

__________________________________________________ ____________
SO...you took FEDZILLA up on its offer of $4500. dollars to trade in your old "Clunker" (interesting choice of words)? Well, let's see who got the best of that "deal"...
If you traded in a clunker worth $3500, you got $4500 off for an apparent "savings" of $1000. You could have gotten $3,500 if you had just traded the car in. So you really are $1,000 ahead (depending on your clunker's value) at this point. Not too bad...

However, you WILL have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500. (no fed taxes due on this, just state which isn't in this analysis)

So, rather than save $1000, you will actually pay an extra $350. to the feds. In addition, you traded in a car that was most likely paid for. Now you have 4 or 5 years of payments on a car that you did not need, trading in a "clunker" that was costing you less to run than the payments that you will now be making. Even if you save $1,000. dollars a year in gas due to better mileage, you're still gonna be in the red for five years....hello?

But wait, it gets even better: you also got ripped off by the dealer. For example, the month before the "cash for clunkers" program started, every dealer here in LA was selling the Ford Focus with all the goodies including A/C, auto transmission, power windows, etc for $12,500. because competition was stiff due to poor sales from the stalled economy.

When "cash for clunkers" came along, they stopped discounting them and instead sold them at the list price of $15,500. So, you paid $3000 more than you would have the month before. Honda, Toyota , and Kia played the same list price game that Ford and Chevy did. Now let's do the math...
You traded in a car worth: $3500
You got a discount of: $4500
---------
Net so far +$1000
But you have to pay: $1350 in taxes on the $4500
--------
Net so far: -$350 (that's minus...in the red)
And you paid: $3000 more than the car was selling for the month before
----------
Net Loss: -$3350

We could also add in the additional taxes (sales tax, state tax, dealer prep, etc.) on the extra $3000 that you paid for the car, along with the Five years of interest on the car loan; but let's just stop here while you kick yourself. Suffice it to say that those costs will be much higher than any savings you get from "better mileage".

So who actually made out on the deal? FEDZILLA collected taxes on the car along with taxes on the $4500 they "gave" you. The car dealers made an extra $3000 or more on every car they sold along with the kickbacks from the manufacturers and the loan companies. Manufacturers got to dump lots of cars they could not give away the month before. Lots of good or repairable used cars got taken off the market, crushed and sold as scrap metal to(ready for this?) CHINA ! (Look it up...) And the poor consumer got saddled with even more debt that they cannot afford.

FEDZILLA'S merry men (who promised that people making less than $250,000. would pay "not one red cent more in taxes") will make millions in new tax revenues after convincing Joe Consumer that he was getting $4500 in "free" money from the "government" In fact, Joe was giving away his $3500 car and paying an additional $3350 for the privilege. Chicago politics gone global...with an agenda.

If you find errors in this math, please let me know.. .being a simple guy, I'm always willing to learn new things; and if you took "advantage" of the Clunkers deal, I have some swamp land down in Florida that's for sale...

And remember, these are the same Einstein’s who want to take control of our health care system. Hold on to your wallet!!

===========
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Last edited by Wink; 10-23-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:08 PM
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post

However, you WILL have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
That math is bunk. I stop reading forwarded emails once I see the first sign of scare tatics that are not based on fact

No one paid federal income tax on the $4500.......

You do pay state sales tax on the $4500. Which is $337 if you figure 7%


If you’re talking about federal income taxes, then the answer is no. As a consumer, you won’t owe taxes to the Federal government for the credit you received as a result of the Cash for Clunkers trade-in. The official program website, Cars.gov is very specific about this. See this excerpt from their FAQs:

“Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program? NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.”

Eric
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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So, is the rest of it true?


BTW - I Added your comment to the part about the fed vs the state in the original quote.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:26 PM
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I'm not saying it is a good program for everyone. And I'm sure a lot of people traded in cars and took on debt they shouldn't have. I'm also sure there are dealers that took advantage and manipulated the price. Thats not the fault of the program.

People make their own decisions.


$20,000 car = $21400 w/ tax
Less $3500 trade = $17900 out the door


$20,000 car = $21400 w/ tax
Less $4500 C4C trade = $16,900 otd

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:28 PM
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:35 PM
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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I blame it on Obama
Duh!

The big question is why does THIS new government think that capitalism is the wrong solution? Failed companies SHOULD fail. A new, better company will rise in it's place to meet the economic needs.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I'm not saying it is a good program for everyone. And I'm sure a lot of people traded in cars and took on debt they shouldn't have. I'm also sure there are dealers that took advantage and manipulated the price. Thats not the fault of the program.

People make their own decisions.


$20,000 car = $21400 w/ tax
Less $3500 trade = $17900 out the door


$20,000 car = $21400 w/ tax
Less $4500 C4C trade = $16,900 otd
did you get a trade in credit for the clunker?

Normally if you trade in a car worth $4500 on a car that costs $20000, you only pay taxes on the difference or $15500, not the whole $20k. or was this a grant so you don't get the trade value?

I would like to see examples of dealerships price gouging. In reality, the dealerships were probably competing against each other, which meant if you were smart (not saying everybody is) you would be able to negotiate a competitive price.

My take in general is similar to Wink and Mopars. in a recession caused in part because of a country using too much credit, we have created a program that is designed to put people back behind the credit 8 ball (by forcing them to finance a car)

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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So you think that people that did the program are economically better off?

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:39 PM
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Failed companies SHOULD fail. A new, better company will rise in it's place to meet the economic needs.
What if we replaced companies/company with dealerships/dealer?
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:40 PM
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I didn't trade my truck on the clunkers (although I almost did) but in the end I got $2500 for it, and negotiated a bunch more, with a total net savings of about $8-10k, depending on how you break it down.

Seriously-- $2500 for this:
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Duh!

The big question is why does THIS new government think that capitalism is the wrong solution? Failed companies SHOULD fail. A new, better company will rise in it's place to meet the economic needs.
Ummm, Brian which government started the TARP stuff and said some banks and auto companies are "too big to fail"? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't THIS government.

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
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did you get a trade in credit for the clunker?

Normally if you trade in a car worth $4500 on a car that costs $20000, you only pay taxes on the difference or $15500, not the whole $20k. or was this a grant so you don't get the trade value?

I would like to see examples of dealerships price gouging. In reality, the dealerships were probably competing against each other, which meant if you were smart (not saying everybody is) you would be able to negotiate a competitive price.

My take in general is similar to Wink and Mopars. in a recession caused in part because of a country using too much credit, we have created a program that is designed to put people back behind the credit 8 ball (by forcing them to finance a car)
I don't think the program is mandatory for the entire country. How is anyone being forced to take on debt?

The numbers I posted above are hypothetical. I'm still driving my 5 year old truck. Some states you pay sales tax on the purchase price of the car before trade in. Some states you pay sales tax on the purchase after the trade in. I forget which way Illinois does it

Eric

Last edited by Maynard; 10-23-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:45 PM
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I don't think the program is mandatory for the entire country. How is anyone being forced to take on debt?
Tell me you wouldn't jump at a $20 bill on the floor even if there was a small string attached to it
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I don't think the program is mandatory for the entire country. How is anyone being forced to take on debt?
Umm, the point is, why is it the governments problem to spend yours and my tax revenue to support a failed non-governmental entity? Whether ONE person takes advantage of it or not.

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:13 PM
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Umm, the point is, why is it the governments problem to spend yours and my tax revenue to support a failed non-governmental entity? Whether ONE person takes advantage of it or not.
I agree with you. I'm not a fan of bank bail outs, airline bail outs, auto maker bail outs, goverment subsities, creating entire mideast goverments, travel expenses to boink my latin american mistress, building bridges to unpopulated islands etc

Its nothing new

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Duh!

The big question is why does THIS new government think that capitalism is the wrong solution? Failed companies SHOULD fail. A new, better company will rise in it's place to meet the economic needs.
Obviously not. Take AIG for example. And with them saving AIG basically also tells us that AIG stock are as good as treasury stock. Let me know if I'm wrong but this is pretty much the way I see it.


Quote:
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I agree with you. I'm not a fan of bank bail outs, airline bail outs, auto maker bail outs, goverment subsities, creating entire mideast goverments, travel expenses to boink my latin american mistress, building bridges to unpopulated islands etc

Its nothing new
Government dipping its hand into the private sector. One of my thesis back in college was the study of Chinese and Indian Economies. Sorry for speaking out of tangent, but what I had wanted to bring up was that China, although a socialist government, is moving more and more into becoming a consumer driven machine, while the US government, in recent years have become more and more interlaced with businesses. Probably can't be helped, but just an observation, how it seems that their roles have become "interchanged".

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Ummm, Brian which government started the TARP stuff and said some banks and auto companies are "too big to fail"? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't THIS government.
I quite agree, but for purposes of solving the problem here and now, its OB's government now, regardless of what people are saying when it started and who's to blame.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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One of the main reasons I bought a house was because of the Governments incentives for it. Yes I am spending more than my rent but in the long run it is better for me.

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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One of the main reasons I bought a house was because of the Governments incentives for it. Yes I am spending more than my rent but in the long run it is better for me.
I wish I had bought a year later to get the $8k.

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
That math is bunk. I stop reading forwarded emails once I see the first sign of scare tatics that are not based on fact

No one paid federal income tax on the $4500.......

You do pay state sales tax on the $4500. Which is $337 if you figure 7%


If you’re talking about federal income taxes, then the answer is no. As a consumer, you won’t owe taxes to the Federal government for the credit you received as a result of the Cash for Clunkers trade-in. The official program website, Cars.gov is very specific about this. See this excerpt from their FAQs:

“Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program? NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.”
wait... why would you have to pay taxes on the full $4500? why wouldn't you just be paying taxes on the gain you received? so if you got $4500 for a $3500 car, shouldn't you only be paying taxes on the $1000 gain?
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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what CSP says makes sense to me...

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I don't think the program is mandatory for the entire country. How is anyone being forced to take on debt?

The numbers I posted above are hypothetical. I'm still driving my 5 year old truck. Some states you pay sales tax on the purchase price of the car before trade in. Some states you pay sales tax on the purchase after the trade in. I forget which way Illinois does it
sorry, what I meant was that the people that were taking advantages of the cash for clunkers are probably not the kind of people that can afford to pay cash for brand new cars. So this "great recession" that we are in, which was caused in part by banks too quick to lend money and people getting over extended with debt; one of the government's proposed solutions was to give people an incentive to purchase a new car, hence putting them back in debt with a car payment that they presumably didn't have previously.

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
wait... why would you have to pay taxes on the full $4500? why wouldn't you just be paying taxes on the gain you received? so if you got $4500 for a $3500 car, shouldn't you only be paying taxes on the $1000 gain?
I don't think the government valued the vehicles. Since they are destroying the vehicles, I think they are valueing everything at 0. So I would be interested to see how this effects you. But, wouldn't the $4500 be considered as income, meaning that you have to just pay the 3% on it. So the amount you are actually paying is (worst case) is $135.

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
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Ummm, Brian which government started the TARP stuff and said some banks and auto companies are "too big to fail"? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't THIS government.
with the dems in control of both houses for 3 yrs now i think it is this govt, as tempting as it is to blame bush for everything , the prez only signs bills, doesnt write em or vote em into law, and since obama only votes present we need to blame pelosi, reid, frank and dodd,,, no?
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Cash for new cars. Now that would be an interesting statistic. How many new cars are purchased with cash or check? And how has that changed over the years?

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 03:45 PM
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What is also not mentioned, is that you now have to fully insure this new car, again costing more $$ for full coverage versus liability.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 04:25 PM
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Location: Morgan Park, IL
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State tax rate here in Illinois is currently 3%, not 7%. So state income tax on the $4500 is $135.00 Not too shabby a deal.

Although I agree in concept about government not bailing out industries that are not strategic to national defense, these are very strange times. The moves in 2007 and 2008 were an attempt to keep the entire financial system from seizing. We haven't seen the end of economic turmoil yet. Hold on to your hats and stay tuned.

Craig
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-23-2009, 04:37 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Joliet, IL
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Location: Joliet, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beac83 View Post
We haven't seen the end of economic turmoil yet. Hold on to your hats and stay tuned.
Yeah, the dollar loosing 16% of its value since March is a pretty good indicator of things to come. Lets spend more money we don't have.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...nst-euro_N.htm

Last edited by JPKII; 10-23-2009 at 04:41 PM.
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