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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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How difficult would it be to learn

How difficult would it be to learn "Proficiency in website administration, HTML, flash programming, relational databases, CSS, web authoring tools such as Dreamweaver and Contribute, and web programming and development tools such as MSSQL, MySQL, PHP, ColdFusion, JavaScript, and Action Script."?

Just curious.

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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:25 PM
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learn and proficient are 2 different things. A while.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vcook View Post
learn and proficient are 2 different things. A while.
Well, duh
A while for the former or the latter?

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:27 PM
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You want good results and in depth knowledge or the ability to write a pretty looking but royally fucked up website that will hit a brick wall and you'll never understand why ?

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:29 PM
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Stick with the lawyer thing. The job you just described, is basicly burntash in his moms basement.




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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:29 PM
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
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yeah- and to be proficient at all that, with experience to use it correctly would take years- assuming you could find someone to even let you learn in their environments.........

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
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That's a very tall order, as it covers many disciplines. Some of the terms in that list are general as well, and could be interpreted to cover a number of different disciplines.

Website Administration - This alone touches upon systems administration and could delve into networking.

HTML, CSS, Web Authoring Tools - These are inter-related and involve web page design.

Flash - This is a discipline in of itself. The GOOD Flash developers specialize in Flash, as it is its own beast.

Relational Databases, MSSQL, MySQL - These are related, all involving databases. It's not difficult to get a basic understanding, but there are folks like myself who focus their whole careers solely on databases.

PHP, ColdFusion, Javascript, & ActionScript - These are inter-related and fall under the web programming realm. ColdFusion never really took off. PHP can be a specialist discipline and JavaScript is used by many disciplines.

So I guess the question is "define proficiency."

My first job out of college, I worked at a dot-com Internet consulting firm. There, I wore many hats, as their systems admin, network admin, database admin, and web developer. I was proficient in most of the things listed above, but was I an expert in any? Not by a long shot. I should note that I didn't do any actual website DESIGN - we had dedicated designers who made the front-ends that you see... I just plugged in my "plumbing" behind the scenes.

I was a jack of many trades, master of none, and in IT, that can only get you so far.

Since then, I've specialized as a database developer.

Does that help answer your question?
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
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yeah- and to be proficient at all that, with experience to use it correctly would take years- assuming you could find someone to even let you learn in their environments.........
Years of hands-on and making some royal fuckups to learn from . . .

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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
Stick with the lawyer thing. The job you just described, is basicly burntash in his moms basement.
This is sort of an offshoot of the lawyer thing. Long story. It's not an IT position per se, but rather a marketing/communications thing.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch View Post
Years of hands-on and making some royal fuckups to learn from . . .
Building on that, during the dot-com era, we came across way too fucking many people who picked up Learn HTML in 30 Days, and suddenly started marketing themselves as web developers/designers. They oversaturated the market, making it much harder to weed out the real talent from the riff-raff. Unfortunately, many HR folks didn't know shit about shit, so would hire clueless fucks into their IT departments, who created absolute shit websites.

It takes more than a book and a few classes to become a solid (much less proficient) web developer/designer.
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:36 PM
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Stick with the lawyer thing. The job you just described, is basicly burntash in his moms basement.
He is now living in the penthouse of his Mom's house and pulling bank as an EMT. Get with the program!

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
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This is sort of an offshoot of the lawyer thing. Long story. It's not an IT position per se, but rather a marketing/communications thing.
Marketing? Shit you dont even have to know if it possible or not, just tell them "yes" and let someone else worry about making it happen.

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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob, Esq. View Post
This is sort of an offshoot of the lawyer thing. Long story. It's not an IT position per se, but rather a marketing/communications thing.
I should point out that there's really two sides to web design/development. If your focus is more on marketing/communications, then chances are you're more interested in the design aspect. But your original list of criteria focuses far more on the development side of things.

To make an oversimplified analogy, you need a more creative designer/artist to create the look and feel of a successful website... and a developer to make it all work behind the scenes.

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He is now living in the penthouse of his Mom's house and pulling bank as an EMT. Get with the program!
We call that the attic!

But I do give him credit for finally getting his ass out there, switching gears, and finally securing a yob. As much as we give the guy shit, he eventually did pull his own arse up by the bootstraps.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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I should point out that there's really two sides to web design/development. If your focus is more on marketing/communications, then chances are you're more interested in the design aspect. But your original list of criteria focuses far more on the development side of things.

To make an oversimplified analogy, you need a more creative designer/artist to create the look and feel of a successful website... and a developer to make it all work behind the scenes.
Yep, the actual title is "communications manager" and the description is more of a creative type person. BUT, it's for a small dept, so whoever took this job would end up having to do a bit of everything.

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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob, Esq. View Post
Yep, the actual title is "communications manager" and the description is more of a creative type person. BUT, it's for a small dept, so whoever took this job would end up having to do a bit of everything.
The shop I worked for was also a small shop, which is one of the reasons why I wore many hats.

Honestly, if you want it done well, you'll want someone whose education and experience are dedicated towards those disciplines. It is even more important in a small shop, because if that person fucks up, there may not be another person who can help clean the mess up. Winds up being a single point of failure and you wind up having to hiring contractors or consultants to clean shit up (a role I filled several times, when I worked at that shop).
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:49 PM
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The shop I worked for was also a small shop, which is one of the reasons why I wore many hats.

Honestly, if you want it done well, you'll want someone whose education and experience are dedicated towards those disciplines. It is even more important in a small shop, because if that person fucks up, there may not be another person who can help clean the mess up. Winds up being a single point of failure and you wind up having to hiring contractors or consultants to clean shit up (a role I filled several times, when I worked at that shop).
Worse... when that person fucks up they can take the whole company down the drain with them because of the critical nature of small shops...

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:57 PM
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
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Building on that, during the dot-com era, we came across way too fucking many people who picked up Learn HTML in 30 Days, and suddenly started marketing themselves as web developers/designers. They oversaturated the market, making it much harder to weed out the real talent from the riff-raff. Unfortunately, many HR folks didn't know shit about shit, so would hire clueless fucks into their IT departments, who created absolute shit websites.

It takes more than a book and a few classes to become a solid (much less proficient) web developer/designer.
The same goes for a business owner just getting by on 3-5%.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob, Esq. View Post
Yep, the actual title is "communications manager" and the description is more of a creative type person. BUT, it's for a small dept, so whoever took this job would end up having to do a bit of everything.
Expect to pay them a lot.

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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 04:12 PM
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What's funny is that people think you need all this shit to make a good website... They insist on and pick tools before even knowing what the hell they want.

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 04:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
Stick with the lawyer thing. The job you just described, is basicly burntash in his moms basement.
THIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob, Esq. View Post
How difficult would it be to learn "Proficiency in website administration, HTML, flash programming, relational databases, CSS, web authoring tools such as Dreamweaver and Contribute, and web programming and development tools such as MSSQL, MySQL, PHP, ColdFusion, JavaScript, and Action Script."?

Just curious.
plus you just dumped a crap load of money on the lawyer thing, man up and get a job you sissy. plus on a webmasters salary you'd be living with your parents until your 40 too. not to mention ability to pay off 100k of debt.
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 04:49 PM
 
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What's funny is that people think you need all this shit to make a good website... They insist on and pick tools before even knowing what the hell they want.
learn Joomla, you'll get farther than trying to learn html or javascript all of which I can do, if requested, but I don't have desire to chase after that trade. I'll make specific requested changes that I see as worthy of my time, but that's it. you want someone to reinvent the wheel hire a consultant.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 05:26 PM
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learn Joomla, you'll get farther than trying to learn html or javascript all of which I can do, if requested, but I don't have desire to chase after that trade. I'll make specific requested changes that I see as worthy of my time, but that's it. you want someone to reinvent the wheel hire a consultant.
joomla is a fucking joke, not to mention the fun security problem of importing code from a remote site as part of a url and executing it locally. I've seen too many sites that try to use it that have no business using anything of the sort. Again, the case of when you have a hammer everythinglooks like a nail. Most people try to force a set of software onto problems simply because they don't know anything else. It's pretty sad to see, really.

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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 05:34 PM
 
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joomla is a fucking joke, not to mention the fun security problem of importing code from a remote site as part of a url and executing it locally. I've seen too many sites that try to use it that have no business using anything of the sort. Again, the case of when you have a hammer everythinglooks like a nail. Most people try to force a set of software onto problems simply because they don't know anything else. It's pretty sad to see, really.
woah dude. It wasn't my choice, MARKETING HAPPENED.

they struck out with one joomla based sight from one "marketing agency"

This year the head of marketing decided she didn't like the look and feel of the sight so she hired ANOTHER MARKETING AGENCY from the otherside of the date, b/c that makes a difference ya know.

and it's also in joomla b/c it's so stupid easy to update a non techie can do it.

which means marketing comes calling on IT everytime they want a minor website revision.


In joomla I just go straight to the html editor and doo the real damage anyway. I'd much rather design a site in straight javascript and html, but this ain't my hearts desire to be a webmaster. I like CIO better. let someone else do the dirty while i direct.

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 05:58 PM
 
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Thank God for the geek sqad subforum. I can write all my time on clsb off as "research" and thus far it's been a mutually beneficial experience.
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 06:00 PM
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He is now living in the penthouse of his Mom's house and pulling bank as an EMT. Get with the program!
Lol, i obviously have been out of the loop since i defriended him on facebook for bein a jackass




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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 06:08 PM
 
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Lol, i obviously have been out of the loop since i defriended him on facebook for bein a jackass
who is he and where is he now?
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 07:43 PM
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Rob,
In the process of taking a Java programming class at UIC. Been studying Java for 10 weeks now and I still don't know shit about being a 'good' programmer. I can make some crude programs, but nothing special, no graphics, and really crude GUI's.

Bek can correct me if I'm wrong but I would assume at least 6 months to learn each language/ skill and even then you might not be 'Great' at them. But then I've been told that once you learn one, the rest are easier to learn cause there is really only a finite way of programming something.

EG: We touched on html the past couple lectures because of a program we have to write and the professor really only pointed out a couple html tags and how they were similar to Java.

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 08:03 PM
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Rob,
In the process of taking a Java programming class at UIC. Been studying Java for 10 weeks now and I still don't know shit about being a 'good' programmer. I can make some crude programs, but nothing special, no graphics, and really crude GUI's.

Bek can correct me if I'm wrong but I would assume at least 6 months to learn each language/ skill and even then you might not be 'Great' at them. But then I've been told that once you learn one, the rest are easier to learn cause there is really only a finite way of programming something.

EG: We touched on html the past couple lectures because of a program we have to write and the professor really only pointed out a couple html tags and how they were similar to Java.
I discussed this a bit in another thread, just the other day.

But in a nutshell, it really doesn't matter much if you are fluent in a given programming language. What matters is that you can utilize the fundamental "tools" that all programming languages offer in some form or another, come up with an algorithm to solve your problem, then apply whatever language you have at your disposal to implement your solution.
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