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post #1 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
 
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Using other peoples Wi-fi

Is it ethical or not in your eyes? Know a few people who have not yet bought any internet services for their homes simply because their neighbors have left their connections open (not sure if intentional or accidental).

While I would say that something like going into someone's home just because the door is open is wrong...here we have a signal that is being broadcast outside of the home into not only public streets, but also into other private homes.
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post #2 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:37 AM
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From a security standpoint a person who is using another person's Wi-Fi leaves themselves vunerable as well. I personally would never do this, but that's because I'm paranoid of someone haveing a WiFi Honeypot or Trapping MAC address, or Sniffing my traffic.... I don't play like that. So eithical or not, I think it's not intelligent.

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post #3 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
From a security standpoint a person who is using another person's Wi-Fi leaves themselves vunerable as well. I personally would never do this, but that's because I'm paranoid of someone haveing a WiFi Honeypot or Trapping MAC address, or Sniffing my traffic.... I don't play like that. So eithical or not, I think it's not intelligent.

You just don't know who you are dealing with.....
Not problem if you have a netscreen with a DMZ in between bridging to the other network with my wireless access point wouldnt you agree?

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post #4 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger
Not problem if you have a netscreen with a DMZ in between bridging to the other network with my wireless access point wouldnt you agree?
You are speaking of having control over your WAP... I thought the topic was wardriving type stuff... in which case, you can save yourself from intrusion at that level, but if you are sending traffic there is nothing that is going to stop that person from sniffing your packets....

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post #5 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
From a security standpoint a person who is using another person's Wi-Fi leaves themselves vunerable as well. I personally would never do this, but that's because I'm paranoid of someone haveing a WiFi Honeypot or Trapping MAC address, or Sniffing my traffic.... I don't play like that. So eithical or not, I think it's not intelligent.

You just don't know who you are dealing with.....
Hey if you wanna login to download some songs or movies, then it don't matter if they're sniffing or not though, but I get what you're saying for more sensitive things such as work or email. On the plus side several of the Bittorrent clients are encrypted as well so even a law enforcement agency would have a hard time trapping you. The MAC address maybe, but thought spoofing wasn't as popular. While what you say may happen, in all likelihood it's just someone not knowing.
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post #6 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
You are speaking of having control over your WAP... I thought the topic was wardriving type stuff... in which case, you can save yourself from intrusion at that level, but if you are sending traffic there is nothing that is going to stop that person from sniffing your packets....
Encryption? VPN would not let anyone on the LAN into the tunnel either?
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post #7 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:49 AM
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I've been known to borrow an internet connection here and there at times

Ethically speaking, I don't think it's an issue. I compare it to borrowing a cup of sugar from a neighbor.

Security wise, it's a huge risk if you plan on entering any personal information.
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post #8 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:51 AM
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I include internet access as part of the rent to my tenants as long as they purchase their own wireless hardware. I use to lock up my WLAN but got tired of the support calls. They would change something and I would have to go set it up again. Finally I said F. it! and left it open. Less headaches for me as they can just plug and play.

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post #9 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoisn
I include internet access as part of the rent to my tenants as long as they purchase their own wireless hardware. I use to lock up my WLAN but got tired of the support calls. They would change something and I would have to go set it up again. Finally I said F. it! and left it open. Less headaches for me as they can just plug and play.
Dude, be careful with that, your ISP would probably frown on reselling their bandwidth. Also, acting as an ISP, you may be held accountable for any type of hacking they are doing.

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post #10 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:56 AM
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I don't think it's right but I still do it. My building's Inet provide went out of business so now the only option for us is dialup. Since then I've been using a Wi-Fi connection that's somewhere close. If I knew who it was I'd offer to split the bill with them but there's no way to find out without doing some hacking.

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post #11 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger
Dude, be careful with that, your ISP would probably frown on reselling their bandwidth. Also, acting as an ISP, you may be held accountable for any type of hacking they are doing.
Seriously? Damn. Back to da lock then.

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post #12 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:00 AM
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If it is open, it seems to be open intentionally to me. I have two wireless nets in my house, one open, one not. Anyone wants to use my open net... that is what it is there for.

Ethical? - for me, breaking into or onto a net (wired or wireless) is the unethical part. Using open air services... seems fine to me.

Surfer beware as Busa said.

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post #13 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
Surfer beware as Busa said.
Yeah, but its the same whether you you wired or wireless, the info is still out there on the wire or in the air. You have to take steps to protect yourself. Hackers will typically go after the softest target. If Im on a wirelss connection behind an encrypted bridge, and an enterprise class firewall, chances are that even if someone is sniffing and capturing, they will go after a different target than me. I log all attempts at incoming traffic, and have yet to see any protocol anomolies much less port scans and such coming my way.

If you have sex without the protection, expect to pay later.

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post #14 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoisn
Seriously? Damn. Back to da lock then.
If you're writing in that you're selling it, then yes that could get you in some trouble. By that, all they would really do is simply shut off your service and possibly blacklist you. But if you simply told them verbally that you've left your connection open then you should be fine. While some of the ISP's have policies against intentionally sharing your connection, there are very few policies on locking down your wireless since it's a newer issue.

By the way, what routers does everyone use?
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post #15 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:09 AM
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Open connection is up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. I have mine firewalled and guarded and it didn't cost much more. JM2C

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post #16 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger
Yeah, but its the same whether you you wired or wireless, the info is still out there on the wire or in the air. You have to take steps to protect yourself. Hackers will typically go after the softest target. If Im on a wirelss connection behind an encrypted bridge, and an enterprise class firewall, chances are that even if someone is sniffing and capturing, they will go after a different target than me.

If you have sex without the protection, expect to pay later.
Wait...I think you may have 2 things tied up into one. Your firewall, router security, and personal pc security protect from entry into your LAN and local pc. When you send a packet out of your router, your ISP (which your router is a LAN member of basically) then routes through the outside world. So the only way that someone is going to get your traffic is through one of those outside routers. Sending something locally via wireless connection will generally not get you much if the router is using WEP or WPA encryption. WEP however, has been discovered to be easily cracked, so most folks (who know) are strictly using WPA which is theoretically impossible to crack at this time.
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post #17 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:27 AM
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LOL.. if i need internet, and its avalible were i'm sitting, i'm stealing that stuff.

2 people in my apt buliding have connections aval. if i would have noticed them before i got it hooked up, i would just steal theres

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post #18 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:28 AM
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I agree that an open connection is fair game as long as you aren't hacking their network. Just remember, from a security standpoint you are a presence on their subnet. Any open file shares are a huge problem! The first line of security is not allowing unauthorized presence on your network.

ANY personal information entered over the web should be on an SSL connection!

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post #19 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGGY
VPN would not let anyone on the LAN into the tunnel either?
This is taking things into a whole different topic, but yes, you can sniff traffic that is running IPSec through another wireless network... we are talking if "Mr. Wireless Hunter" VPNs through "Mr. I don't know what WEP is" WAP to their whatever VPN concentrator...

What the packet will show you is all subjective to what type of encryption is being used on the VPN connection, and if you are actively looking to crack the hash for some reason....

This is getting too in depth for the surface discussion...

You are never safe...

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post #20 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger
If you have sex without the protection, expect to pay later.
Kegger is under the misperception that some of you aren't already paying for sex... with or without protection.

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post #21 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink
Kegger is under the misperception that some of you aren't already paying for sex... with or without protection.

LOVE IT! Extra rep for the thread-jack!

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post #22 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
 
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Dave, I think some users are not completely satisfied with encryption. Some folks think that the government or other people out there have computers and programs that can break encryption. While it's true that good encryption implemented in a bad way can be cracked...it's really damn near impossible to crack other encyptions such as SSL or WPA by any individual or government. So I think the logic is "yea I can encrypt something, but I still don't trust it"
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post #23 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
This is taking things into a whole different topic, but yes, you can sniff traffic that is running IPSec through another wireless network... we are talking if "Mr. Wireless Hunter" VPNs through "Mr. I don't know what WEP is" WAP to their whatever VPN concentrator...

What the packet will show you is all subjective to what type of encryption is being used on the VPN connection, and if you are actively looking to crack the hash for some reason....

This is getting too in depth for the surface discussion...

You are never safe...
That would most likely be someone specifically targetting you. If they're willing to chase you to all of the different physical/logical locations then that's one thing. But you can wrap up your packets on your own machine. Even easier than that...go download "Cain & Able" and you can do a man in the middle attack from your own network. Maybe that's more along the lines of what you initially were talking about?
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post #24 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:00 PM
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Fine.... since we are all geeks here I will cave in and ask a question since encryption is on everyone's mind....

How wouldl you suggest getting around reverse encryption for passwords stored in AD when they are needed for Radius reverse encryption authentication? How would you best encrypt passwords so that it doesn't break processes such as this authentication?

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post #25 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:03 PM
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Unless you are tunneling EVERYTHING over ssh-like encryption (INCLUDING DNS) you are leaving yourself WIDE OPEN as a user using someone else's network.

Granted, 99.999% of the population out there isn't bright enough to set up a LIEING DNS server that could be routing you to fake sights that you *THINK* are legit... but the next wave of scams to start hitting people will.

Imagine... you find an 'open network' and start to use it regularly. The owner keeps some snoops going to see where you like to frequent...

Ah, you go to capitalone, or wellsfargo to bank online... Now they set up a DNS server that LIES to you and instead of sending you to the right sites sends you to THEIR sites that LOOK legit and you unsuspectingly enter in your login credentials.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happens next.

Something to think about...

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post #26 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
This is taking things into a whole different topic, but yes, you can sniff traffic that is running IPSec through another wireless network... we are talking if "Mr. Wireless Hunter" VPNs through "Mr. I don't know what WEP is" WAP to their whatever VPN concentrator...

What the packet will show you is all subjective to what type of encryption is being used on the VPN connection, and if you are actively looking to crack the hash for some reason....

This is getting too in depth for the surface discussion...

You are never safe...

Now lets all pause and appreciate a hot chick talking packets and MAC addresses..

..
..
..


Ok, now, Biggy, from a pure ethics perspective, it's certainly not ethical. You are, after all, stealing bandwidth. It is also illegal and, I believe, tested in court -- if I come across the article again I'll post it. I, however, firmly believe that if you are an imbesile, you deserve what's coming to you. If you leave your front door open and get burglarised, well, it's your own damn fault..

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post #27 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch
Unless you are tunneling EVERYTHING over ssh-like encryption (INCLUDING DNS) you are leaving yourself WIDE OPEN as a user using someone else's network.

Granted, 99.999% of the population out there isn't bright enough to set up a LIEING DNS server that could be routing you to fake sights that you *THINK* are legit... but the next wave of scams to start hitting people will.

Imagine... you find an 'open network' and start to use it regularly. The owner keeps some snoops going to see where you like to frequent...

Ah, you go to capitalone, or wellsfargo to bank online... Now they set up a DNS server that LIES to you and instead of sending you to the right sites sends you to THEIR sites that LOOK legit and you unsuspectingly enter in your login credentials.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happens next.

Something to think about...

Thats already happening on a small scale. Very dangerous-I agree.

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post #28 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:21 PM
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I am running 128 bit encryption and filtering MAC addresses at home.

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post #29 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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If they don't lock it up, then I say it is up for free grabs. You or whoever set it up for you should lock it up. If not its your fault and well let the borrowing begin.
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post #30 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaGirl
Fine.... since we are all geeks here I will cave in and ask a question since encryption is on everyone's mind....

How wouldl you suggest getting around reverse encryption for passwords stored in AD when they are needed for Radius reverse encryption authentication? How would you best encrypt passwords so that it doesn't break processes such as this authentication?
AD is a different ball game. They leave you the option to set reversable encryption. I haven't looked into how it works, but my guess is that it either does not store your password as a hash value, or simply makes it weak. But that's different and it's intentional for admin purposes.

If we look at something like PGP for our use of someone else's WiFi, then it's impossible to crack. By impossible I mean in any period of time that's relevant to us. The biggest argument could really only be in "back doors" to these programs.
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