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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Wait for Quad core processors?

I keep putting off building a new pc because a new this or a new that is going to come out. Seems like the market has finally leveled off with the Core 2 Duo processors and the quads are out recently but still in that upper price range bracket. What's the word with them? Are they going to be server oriented processors for a while and not coming down in price anytime soon or what? If it's not worth waiting for them to become reasonable then in a couple months I'll just build based on what's around...but if they are due to be the new thing by the holidays then I'd simply wait.
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:12 PM
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Why even wait? Most programs can't even use a dual core a lot less a quad core processor.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:12 PM
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The same old rule applies: The longer you wait, the more computer you get for the same money.

Depending on what you plan to do with it, it may or may not make sense to have one.

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
 
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Why even wait? Most programs can't even use a dual core a lot less a quad core processor.
Why wait? Because I pretty much never upgrade, just wait 4 or more years and build a new one. Not that my system is at all weak from 2002...still runs the latest version of Flight Simulator ok, but could use a bump in a while since there are points where it of course shows it's age.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:27 PM
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Why wait? Because I pretty much never upgrade, just wait 4 or more years and build a new one. Not that my system is at all weak from 2002...still runs the latest version of Flight Simulator ok, but could use a bump in a while since there are points where it of course shows it's age.

I know how you feel, but I have given up keeping my computer up to date. I stick to Xbox for games. As long as the computer checks email and downloads pron it is good to go I'm still using PC 133 RAM if that gives you any indication of the age of my machine

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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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The same old rule applies: The longer you wait, the more computer you get for the same money.

Depending on what you plan to do with it, it may or may not make sense to have one.
Of course eventually programs might utilize the quad core, I'm just not sure if the quads are more like the xeon processors that are destined to stay up there or if they are eventually going to be taking the place of the duo's.

As for stuff I do, it can all of course be done on a duo...flight simulator on max settings, good amount of audio editing and mixing, video and photoshop editing, and some gaming for things not out on the 360.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:45 PM
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From what I hear Duos are especially good at running several CPU-intensive several tasks at once, like ripping a DVD and browsing / working at the same time (no surprise). Quads should be even better at that.

But I don't recommend holding out the purchase. You can hold out forever, there's always the newest and greatest coming out next month. The moment you buy your components they're obsolete. Simply get used to it .

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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:52 PM
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As for stuff I do, it can all of course be done on a duo...flight simulator on max settings, good amount of audio editing and mixing, video and photoshop editing, and some gaming for things not out on the 360.
Does flight sim X do multi-threaded processes? I can run mine all on high and I have an AMD 3400+ but I also have 2 6800GT cards running in SLi

I'd go duo. You're not going to utilize it all anyway, quad is just overkill and I don't see a reason on a desktop coming for a while. I mean even autocad isn't multi threaded yet, and about 90% of games aren't yet either.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:07 PM
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I mean even autocad isn't multi threaded yet, and about 90% of games aren't yet either.
That's not 100% correct. Most applications are multithreaded - just open the Windows Task Manager, add Thread Count column and see how many processes have only 1 thread.

The real problem is most apps don't parallelize the tasks well. And they won't anytime soon because good multi threaded programming is difficult and most people can't even deal with sequential processing, let alone a parallel one. So unless there will be a major paradigm shift and powerful languages with parallel semantics will come out, most apps will remain the same as they are now.

However, the multicore CPUs still have a great advantage because you never run a single process/task on a modern OS. It's not rare to see 40-60 tasks in Windows Task Manager on a regular desktop machine.

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:18 PM
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That's not 100% correct. Most applications are multithreaded - just open the Windows Task Manager, add Thread Count column and see how many processes have only 1 thread.

The real problem is most apps don't parallelize the tasks well. And they won't anytime soon because good multi threaded programming is difficult and most people can't even deal with sequential processing, let alone a parallel one. So unless there will be a major paradigm shift and powerful languages with parallel semantics will come out, most apps will remain the same as they are now.

However, the multicore CPUs still have a great advantage because you never run a single process/task on a modern OS. It's not rare to see 40-60 tasks in Windows Task Manager on a regular desktop machine.
Most of which I agree with. However, it is true that autocad will only use one core, we specifically called and asked them a few months back. And I've even seen some apps that won't run on a dual core PC without crashing.

Anyway, yes there is an advantage to dual core, it is what it should be? no Is the quad core worth the price premium right now??? well, that's up to the individual. My next processor will be an AMD 64 X2, but to each his own.
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:31 PM
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Most of which I agree with. However, it is true that autocad will only use one core, we specifically called and asked them a few months back. And I've even seen some apps that won't run on a dual core PC without crashing.

Anyway, yes there is an advantage to dual core, it is what it should be? no Is the quad core worth the price premium right now??? well, that's up to the individual. My next processor will be an AMD 64 X2, but to each his own.
Yeah, many apps use only a single core because they don't parallelize the tasks they have... And many of them crash because they have subtle errors (typically race conditions) in their multithreaded code which don't show up on a single core - just because single core isn't running the things truly in parallel.

As far as the "worth it or not" question - I agree that's up to individual. Most important is how many tasks do you run simultaneously? If the answer is "few" - single/duo core is fine. If it is "a lot" then quad should be better.

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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:34 PM
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Yeah, many apps use only a single core because they don't parallelize the tasks they have... And many of them crash because they have subtle errors (typically race conditions) in their multithreaded code which don't show up on a single core - just because single core isn't running the things truly in parallel.

As far as the "worth it or not" question - I agree that's up to individual. Most important is how many tasks do you run simultaneously? If the answer is "few" - single/duo core is fine. If it is "a lot" then quad should be better.
Keep in mind, that whether you have 1, 2, 4, 8 or more cores they all still have to share the exact same other hardware...

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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quad to me is of course not worth the money right now. But realistically if it costs a couple hundred more and means a solid couple years more life out of the pc then I'll take it. We've had a nice jump in hardware tech recently and now it's almost the software that needs to catch up. I recall not too long ago when the games hitting the market were capable of more than the hardware and now it's much less the case. So my interest isn't in the fact that I'm going to utilize 4 cores today, but tomorrow. There are plans for 8 cores already from my reading a few months ago.

My computer has always been a central point of the home as well. It controls my media, tv, allows me to create mixes, etc...basically regular computer plus a bit more. In no way do I usually stress the processor or memory like some of the servers I've setup. But there are times when I do push some limits.

And I think most of us here can't name a single program we use that will put a massive stress on our pc's. It's that I want to have my flight simulator running along with winamp, zone alarm, torrent downloads, objectdock, 5 web pages still open in the background, WinTV running, spybot scan, and defrag at the same time. I can do most things as well as todays machines but the difference is that to get into the same ball park by my definition, in terms of performance I gotta shut this down or that down, and tweak this or that to hit that frame rate I'm looking for or that compression speed, or whatever else. My computer acts fine as a computer...it needs to act well as a multi tasker though and that's why I look at the future processors.

On the plus side, the processors are not really the focus either. After all the GPU is doing it's own processing, my PVR which I can record and watch tv on has it's own thing, and the 2 or 4 gigs of ram on todays system also help tremendously with things like loading and running programs. So perhaps it's not as big of a deal as I think?
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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Keep in mind, that whether you have 1, 2, 4, 8 or more cores they all still have to share the exact same other hardware...
True. There's always a bottleneck, it's simply which one you would like it to be. Here's another question...anyone think my EGA video card might be the problem too?
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:41 PM
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Keep in mind, that whether you have 1, 2, 4, 8 or more cores they all still have to share the exact same other hardware...
Absolutely true. That's another reason I'm sure that the situation won't change radically for a while.

Still... Many and many tasks only need CPU & RAM. RAM is cheap these days.

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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:45 PM
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And I think most of us here can't name a single program we use that will put a massive stress on our pc's.
I can. To name just a few:

Visual Studio 2005 with JetBrains ReSharper plug in (for powerful refactoring support)

MS SQL Server 2005

MS SQL Server Integration Services

Red Gate SQL Compare / SQL Data Compare

But I agree with you This is not exactly the kind of apps run by home user.

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 02:51 PM
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True. There's always a bottleneck, it's simply which one you would like it to be. Here's another question...anyone think my EGA video card might be the problem too?
Well, that trumps my Hercules monochrome card in my 286

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:11 PM
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well, whatever you decide Biggy, good luck. Now that I see how cheap the 939 X2s are I might pick one up this weekend.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:41 PM
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well, whatever you decide Biggy, good luck. Now that I see how cheap the 939 X2s are I might pick one up this weekend.
I've thoroughly enjoyed my 4400 X2

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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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I can. To name just a few:

Visual Studio 2005 with JetBrains ReSharper plug in (for powerful refactoring support)

MS SQL Server 2005

MS SQL Server Integration Services

Red Gate SQL Compare / SQL Data Compare

But I agree with you This is not exactly the kind of apps run by home user.
C'mon, you're running SQL Server on your personal computer? Maybe if you're combining it as a home and work computer or pc/server then yes. But 99.9% of home users will have nothing to do with SQL server or the other apps on their HOME pc's. Not to mention, if you needed SQL server for something it's often just better to give it it's own machine with a nice backup and the works.
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:54 PM
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I've thoroughly enjoyed my 4400 X2
Hell, you can get the 4800+ X2 with the 2MB cache for $220. 2-3 months ago they were about $500.
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:55 PM
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Hell, you can get the 4800+ X2 with the 2MB cache for $220. 2-3 months ago they were about $500.
I've been enjoying mine for over a year.

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
 
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well, whatever you decide Biggy, good luck. Now that I see how cheap the 939 X2s are I might pick one up this weekend.
I'm probably best waiting for a big price cut (translates to about $20 ) and then grabbing something end of summer. That's when I would guess the next price cut is. Before that time I think the $1000 is better off going to track related activities. Not likely that by that time the quads will have much stronger of a market.
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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 03:56 PM
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C'mon, you're running SQL Server on your personal computer? Maybe if you're combining it as a home and work computer or pc/server then yes. But 99.9% of home users will have nothing to do with SQL server or the other apps on their HOME pc's. Not to mention, if you needed SQL server for something it's often just better to give it it's own machine with a nice backup and the works.
I run large scale MYSQL master/slave servers between my linux box and power [email protected] and yes, I do work work on my home systems for R&D.

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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:13 PM
 
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I work for CDW and I can tell you that workstations have come out with Quad Core options thus far, and that should bring down the price of the dual core processors pretty soon. Look to see quad cores more in the next few months. Who knows how long they will stick because dual cores didn't last long and then core 2 duo's came out and they are getting replaced already. Intel is moving so fast that the manufacturers don't even keep up and companies are getting irritated because it EOL's products too quickly.

Core 2 Duo will run most things, but the quad cores will be great I'm sure. Myself I will never need anything that powerful as the most computing mine needs to do is run this website at the same time it burns a CD.
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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:20 PM
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C'mon, you're running SQL Server on your personal computer? Maybe if you're combining it as a home and work computer or pc/server then yes. But 99.9% of home users will have nothing to do with SQL server or the other apps on their HOME pc's. Not to mention, if you needed SQL server for something it's often just better to give it it's own machine with a nice backup and the works.
Yeah, all true. All my machines are used both for home & work duty. However, there're more users that need computing power. Ever tried processing 10'x3' banners in Photoshop? You need fast IO, lots of memory and fast CPU for that. I'm not even touching video processing, voice recognition and all that. Right now I don't use voice recognition, online AV monitors and search engines like Google Desktop just because they seriously slow down a computer. It's still fast enough for most users but not for all of us. I hope multi-core CPUs and better RAIDs will solve this in the near future.

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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:21 PM
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Spot on about the multithreading issues. I think there's one guy (out of 75) at my company that really understands multithreading. Wankers. Most programmers suck, hacks!

Well I know my trading model could really use a dual quad core because it's using remoting and delegates to distribute the work load.

If you didn't write it, it's probably not multithreaded.
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:25 PM
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I'm probably best waiting for a big price cut (translates to about $20 ) and then grabbing something end of summer. That's when I would guess the next price cut is. Before that time I think the $1000 is better off going to track related activities. Not likely that by that time the quads will have much stronger of a market.
Yeah, you're right, that $20 price break might be worth the wait. I tend to upgrade in stages. I can't decide If I'm doing motherboard/CPU/memory, only CPU (the 939 is still a great socket for gaming), or 2 new video cards this summer. damn technology, it sucks me in
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:43 PM
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Spot on about the multithreading issues. I think there's one guy (out of 75) at my company that really understands multithreading. Wankers. Most programmers suck, hacks!

Well I know my trading model could really use a dual quad core because it's using remoting and delegates to distribute the work load.

If you didn't write it, it's probably not multithreaded.
It takes LOTS of trial and error and lots of fuckups to learn from those mistakes to shift the mental thought process from single-threaded to true multi-threaded/parallel processing. Unfortunately, companies like to ship code written by people who have not gone through those growing pains. This is why when you find programmers who 'get it' you hold onto them at all costs

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 05:15 PM
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