Chicken strips are for winners - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-13-2011, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Chicken strips are for winners

This is in response to Greg Kotlin's response to the thread entitled Tire wear question

I think this can and will be a healthy conversation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Don't worry about. Chicken strips are for winners! Lean angle is for dopes!

It all depends on the tires, pressures, riding style, tire shape etc. Traction is what you care about.
This is diving off the deep end too much so I am starting a new thread...

Ok, I have a serious question / concern. And understand that I have my own riding style, feel and make my way around the race track on how it feels good to me.

You talk about lean angle and getting off the bike. We all know that is great and the more you get off the bike the less lean angle you use up and the less hard parts you drag. But then you talk about traction. If you are hanging completely off the bike, TOO MUCH and lose traction sometimes too much getting off the bike prevents you from recovering. What happens, what do you do when lack of traction occurs? You immediately want to stand the bike up, get on top of the bike and get on top of the tire. Follow me? I excessively get off the bike to quite often when I'm coaching a student to prove a point, to really show them that it's important to get off the bike and look where you want to go. But that doesn't have anything to do with traction. Traction is a feel thing. The only way to know and play around with it IS to push the bike down and produce a lot of lean angle.

Am I making any sense?

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Last edited by Grasshopper; 04-13-2011 at 11:58 PM.
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 12:51 AM
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no.

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 07:47 AM
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Yes.. but you are talking about teaching a beginner vs teaching an advanced rider.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
You talk about lean angle and getting off the bike. We all know that is great and the more you get off the bike the less lean angle you use up and the less hard parts you drag. But then you talk about traction. If you are hanging completely off the bike, TOO MUCH and lose traction sometimes too much getting off the bike prevents you from recovering. What happens, what do you do when lack of traction occurs? You immediately want to stand the bike up, get on top of the bike and get on top of the tire. Follow me? I excessively get off the bike to quite often when I'm coaching a student to prove a point, to really show them that it's important to get off the bike and look where you want to go. But that doesn't have anything to do with traction. Traction is a feel thing. The only way to know and play around with it IS to push the bike down and produce a lot of lean angle.

Am I making any sense?
I did that yesterday and ended up hanging besides the bike after the bus-stop at BHF and had to let the bike go.

I was leaning of a lot as I didn't wanted the bike to be on too much lean ( with the track not beeing as grippy and still cold ), I lost the front at the end of the bus stop and this upset my body even more, the inside foot slipped of the inside peg and I hung pretty much along side the bike with one foot dragging on the pavement and the other one somewhere around the tail section... since I'm more fat than anything I was unable to recover and had get off the bike...

Leaning off is good, but it always is a thing between how much, when and at what speeds... The G-forces are pretty important to this whole thing. the slower you go the faster you tip over, the faster you go the more you can put the weight to the side.

If I would have ridden in a "street mode" I would have prolly just flinched a bit and kept going...


Just my useless .... but I keep field testing all this stuff...

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:07 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
This is in response to Greg Kotlin's response to the thread entitled Tire wear question The only way to know and play around with it IS to push the bike down and produce a lot of lean angle.
Lean angle is relative to pace or line. Pushing the bike down to increase lean angle to learn traction is stupid, especially if you're using proper body position. Pushing the bike down to adjust line so you can decrease radius is a different thing. If we're talking about someone who is fast and has some skill, maybe they would consider adding a little lean angle to experiment with this. But they already have throttle control, have their knee out and may have an idea how to save a slide or not let it panic them.

Beginner riders that have no skills and no pace? Flat out dumb. Let's be honest. When the weather is good, there is good traction, the tires are in good condition and working predictably, the bike is setup properly and the rider is smooth on the controls, most people out there hardly work the tires. The tires are just simply rolling around like a Sunday drive even though we feel like we're kickin' ass and sliding ALL OVER. Then Dan O, comes by 20 seconds a lap faster on the same tires. His tires ARE flexing and sliding and working. I chuckle when people say they get 6 track days from a set of tires and push the front, spin the rear etc. BS. I've seen Wink destroy a brand new set of SV tires before lunch! But he passed everything in sight twice.

It seems like Nick is talking about learning "feel" for when the tires "talk to you." To some people, the tires SCREAM, and the rider doesn't hear the tires. Others will tell you they were pushing the front and spinning the rear all over at low novice pace. I call BS. Unless they have a liter bike and we're spinning the rear with to much power. I think to many new riders lack the knowledge and skill to know the difference. Perception is everything. I think they perceive the bike running wide as pushing the front. Until you push the front tire out of traction and fill your drawers the first time, you don't know whats what. Unfortunately, these are things you cannot teach. You can tune feel into the suspension. But I believe that feel is to often mis-taken for what is truly going on.

A beginner rider spins the rear. The natural reaction is to undo what ever you did to cause this action. They chop the throttle and get their own birds eye view of their bike as they're high sided to the moon. Same goes for the front, they come into the corner, the bike slides, they're like to chop the throttle, over loading the front tire and off they go sliding into the grass. The fact of the matter is, most new riders won't be able to react in time or smoothly enough to save most losses of traction. Heck experienced riders can't always do it. MotoGP guys do crash. But I'm guessing they have a little skill and plenty electronic aides and the best equipment money can buy.

If you want to learn traction and feel and how to control a sliding bike etc, get a darn dirt bike. Go crash your brains out and go home in one piece. Just bring some extra clutch and brake levers.

When I came up through the ranks I asked everyone I knew about sliding the bike and losing traction. How does it feel? How will you know? What do you do? Trying to learn all I could and to be prepared. I asked Wink, Ron Hix, Dustin Boyd, Marshall Skloss, people that know this stuff! Every single one of them gave me a different answer on how to expect it or what it would feel like. Because it's all about perception and how you react or plan to execute. I've done a few laps. I'm no Wink, but I have plenty of seat time. I'm still learning things. Valentino Rossi is still learning things. He's just learning at a much different level then the rest of us.

I know Nick knows this, but don't start a big pissing match here guys. Nick and I have discussed riding quite a few times. Some things we agree others we don't. I totally respect Nick and if I'm darned lucky (and he doesn't build that superbike haha) I hope to keep pace with him someday soon. Nick's a great rider, but again, his perception and the way he has learned is different from mine.

Fast or talented riders, sometimes need to take off the skirt and start pushing these boundaries and may add a LITTLE lean angle to do so and continue their learning process. Some of the new tires that are coming out this season are soooo good that lap record pace riders can go at pace, use up all the available lean angle and still not be pushing the tires.

So. Thats my perception. Lets discuss. Good topic Nick.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:11 AM
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i don't know why but that made me chuckle germany

i want to drink, but only to kill a certain few brain cells and i don't care how many i have to take out to get to them.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:14 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germany View Post
I did that yesterday and ended up hanging besides the bike after the bus-stop at BHF and had to let the bike go.

I was leaning of a lot as I didn't wanted the bike to be on too much lean ( with the track not beeing as grippy and still cold ), I lost the front at the end of the bus stop and this upset my body even more, the inside foot slipped of the inside peg and I hung pretty much along side the bike with one foot dragging on the pavement and the other one somewhere around the tail section... since I'm more fat than anything I was unable to recover and had get off the bike...

Leaning off is good, but it always is a thing between how much, when and at what speeds... The G-forces are pretty important to this whole thing. the slower you go the faster you tip over, the faster you go the more you can put the weight to the side.
I bet you didn't drop your head or you didn't have your knee out far enough because you usually carry more pace. You're used to touching the ground with your knee, but it is much closer to the bike then most other people. You may have been a little crossed up or twisted. When your foot slipped off, your hips turned in even more and you were hanging by your arms them. (Don't ask me how I know)
If your knee was out, head was down and inside and the outside foot was pushing your knee up into the tank, you'd have been fine I'm guessing. You should see the ridiculous amount I hang off the bike in the rain. I've gone out on the SV and chased down and passed much faster riders in the rain.

Bring this up to Nick when you get out to Yami school. I'd like to hear his take on this.

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
I bet you didn't drop your head or you didn't have your knee out far enough because you usually carry more pace. You're used to touching the ground with your knee, but it is much closer to the bike then most other people. You may have been a little crossed up or twisted. When your foot slipped off, your hips turned in even more and you were hanging by your arms them. (Don't ask me how I know)
If your knee was out, head was down and inside and the outside foot was pushing your knee up into the tank, you'd have been fine I'm guessing. You should see the ridiculous amount I hang off the bike in the rain. I've gone out on the SV and chased down and passed much faster riders in the rain.
I belive I was pretty far of the bike, but than who knows what happened...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Bring this up to Nick when you get out to Yami school. I'd like to hear his take on this.
he will say gixxer rule.

#19
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:38 AM
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loosing traction scares me.
i hate riding over those tar snakes i get a little wobble and wonder if i went over a bunch like at acc south that i would loose it. don't get me wrong i have done a very little bit of sliding on street due to ...well .. just crappy rds and just not ready to push it. i have been lucky a few times when the front end dug in on a turn and just happened to do the right thing and going to hot into a turn and just flipping it in. on my other bike i would ride the tire till it went flat and it would be sliding towards the end and i think that kinda helped me to get a feel of that bike at it's point of loosing it. i don't feel it yet on the bike i have now.

i don't think this helped or have any point
and i guess this is more of me being bored and day dreaming

i want to drink, but only to kill a certain few brain cells and i don't care how many i have to take out to get to them.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:40 AM
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this thread is all kinds of win. LOL Drink the coolaid people!!!!
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:48 AM
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The big thing is everybody has to adapt a riding style that works for them....some people lean way off, some don't, some in the middle.

Look at different AMA riders of past and present....Spies lean's pretty far off, Pegram not at all and somebody like Hodgson and most others were in the middle.

You will find what works for you over time and what feels comfortable....there is no right or wrong answer here.

As far as finding the bikes limits and pushing the front and spinning the rear. To get good at it you will test out a lot of leathers and bodywork....PERIOD!

I like a saying Ben Bostrom said years ago.....We all have our own limits, when we reach those limits and push behind them and don't crash, we just established a new personal limit. Sometimes we push past our own limit and don't save it and crash....you just learned something in the process.

Welcome to the never ending cycle of learning in racing. That's why you see young fast, factory racers crashing a lot. They are finding the limits and learning....as they get older they don't crash that much because they can ride at the limit. Mladin rarely ever crashed, however at the end of his career when he and Spies were duking it out he hit the ground way more than he did the 5 years combined before that because they were at the limit and beyond the entire race beating on one another.

Say what you want but Mat Mladin helped Spies out a lot with his career because of how competitive/talented he was and psychologically prepared him for anything. Rossi doesn't have anything on Mladin when it comes to the mental aspect.

Funny story....when Spies was dating the smokin hot umbrella girl, her name escapes me, all of the Mladins crew had naked pictures of her on their computers as screen savers from her video/photo shoot she sent to Playbody...hilarious.

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:51 AM
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If you guys want to learn how to slide a bike...go take an American Supercamp school. It's way cheaper than 1 crash on a bike and you learn a ton and it's a blast.

It's just expensive learning on a roadrace bike because you WILL crash finding your limits and do completely stupid stuff in the process....trust me I've done about all of the boneheaded stuff you can do racing.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 09:57 AM
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Great post Kev
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safety First View Post

Funny story....when Spies was dating the smokin hot umbrella girl, her name escapes me, all of the Mladins crew had naked pictures of her on their computers as screen savers from her video/photo shoot she sent to Playbody...hilarious.
Awesome.

As Dave Aldana said, you never know how fast you can go...until you fall off

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 10:14 AM
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not one mention of looking fly. Pfft and you expect people to take this thread seriously.

<---- Useless Mufugga
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 11:36 AM
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OK...to really look cool put one of those mohawk strips on the top of your helmet.

No that's WINNING!!!!

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safety First View Post
If you guys want to learn how to slide a bike...go take an American Supercamp school. It's way cheaper than 1 crash on a bike and you learn a ton and it's a blast.

It's just expensive learning on a roadrace bike because you WILL crash finding your limits and do completely stupid stuff in the process....trust me I've done about all of the boneheaded stuff you can do racing.
Hi Kevin,
what class would you recommend taking at the supercamp for a trackday rider?

Glenn
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 11:58 AM
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Tons of great info here. TONS!!

Good info from Nick, Greg, and Kevin.

Reality is that there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in teaching basics to a beginner or intermediate rider. In that environment, you want to teach a safe and logical solution.

We all know that physics IS involved in getting off the bike, in keeping more contact patch available, etc. We ALSO know that there are various riding styles, and that TOP riders in the world leverage various styles. So much in fact, that sometimes they use one style and other times, they may use another style. At the TOP of the game, it is all about feeling the bike move, pushing YOUR (and the bike and tire) limits, and knowing where that final fine line is. The ONLY way to FIND that line, is to EXCEED it.

For newbies, the preference is to MINIMIZE the exceeding part, and maximize the learning part. (far cheaper, less painful)

To Nick's point, advanced riders NEED to feel the tires move, the NEED to understand how to react, and finally, they MAY need to PULL the bike down to get a sharper turn here and there. This happens by INCREASING lean angle quickly at speed. NOT something that is recommended as a healthy experiment for folks under say "A" group.

As Kevin pointed out, those who do not have a dirt background, the cheapest and fastest way to learn to slide is the American Supercamp classes every year. I know that Marshall Skloss (won FOUR national championships in one year) LOVED American Supercamp and said that is was a TREMENDOUS help to his riding abilities.

AS is in IL on May 27th: http://www.americansupercamp.com/ind...&id=7&Itemid=8
$600 for two days.

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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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I've taken supercamp and it helped further enhance what I already know about lean angle and the edge of traction. The only purpose of sliding the bike and pushing down to produce more lean angle is to scrub off speed. That's it, to slow down. After you get your speed scrubbed off the sooner you are pointed in the direction you want to go and back on top of the tire the better. Danny walker yells at you if spin the tire on the corner exit. Get the bike back on top of the tire sooner. This helped me a lot for road racing.

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2011, 01:18 PM
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So for someone that has <10 track days and in B group looking to get ( much!) better, would you guys suggest doing the american super camp or something more a long the lines of Yamaha Champs school first?

Or something more like the Star or Code's school?

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 12:32 AM

 
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There are riders like Pegram that don't hang off much. But even he has said, if could, he would! But he can't. Injuries don't let him move that way any longer.

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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 01:00 AM Thread Starter
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Greg, I still don't think you understand the point I am trying to get across. Please for the love of god take American Supercamp. You will then understand after more seat time than a normal human can hanlde. Bring monkey butt powder and don't be shy in the morning when you're dumping it in your underwear.

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 01:25 AM
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+1 to the supercamp suggestions. I'm still a beginner on a track and stuff learned in the supercamp saved my ass from a highside more than once.

Link to the 2011 Supercamp thread: https://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com...d.php?t=112020.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 07:51 AM

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Greg, I still don't think you understand the point I am trying to get across. Please for the love of god take American Supercamp. You will then understand after more seat time than a normal human can hanlde. Bring monkey butt powder and don't be shy in the morning when you're dumping it in your underwear.
Ok. So make a point

I don't disagree that getting out in the dirt is a great way to train. I said that in this thread or the other one.

So what are you getting at? I'm slow and lost. Great..

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 08:20 AM
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Location: Streamwood
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Sportbike: more than one... one less now...
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Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
So what are you getting at? I'm slow and lost. Great..
I just printed a trackmap, you want one?

#19
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 09:08 AM
Slow Old Guy.
 
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SS Barrington
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Originally Posted by Codered636 View Post
So for someone that has <10 track days and in B group looking to get ( much!) better, would you guys suggest doing the american super camp or something more a long the lines of Yamaha Champs school first?

Or something more like the Star or Code's school?
YCRS is the absolute best, I would go there first. As soon as possible. You will learn things there that you can practice for the next couple of years. I used to go every single year, and a couple times a year once.

If you have the coin, I'd also do the American Supercamp. Completely different things that they are teaching, but they work hand in hand with YCRS. In the three day school at YCRS they actually used to have the middle day dedicated to dirt bikes and learning to slide. They also used to have a section the next morning about rear brake only riding now that you know how to slide...

If you have the money, do both. ASAP, early in the season lets you leverage it all season.

Note: PM Beac83, he is a B rider and he just went to YCRS recently.

===========
Great Quote - One would think that the Secret Service was smart enough to get serviced secretly.

MotoVid hasbeen
NESBA hasbeen

CCS neverbeen
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 09:16 AM
black magic
 
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: westmont
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Location: westmont
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Originally Posted by Germany View Post
I just printed a trackmap, you want one?
yes with the race line too

thanks

i want to drink, but only to kill a certain few brain cells and i don't care how many i have to take out to get to them.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 09:58 AM

 
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Sportbike: SV 650, FZR 400, RM 125
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I agree with Wink. YCRS will give you more then you can take in for that first visit. Work on those skills then go back when you can!

I need to get to a super camp still. But I have a blast when we ride in the dirt around here.

Germany - I only want the track map if you tape it to my tank. It's not an original idea, but I don't know where I put the pic of it

Greg K.
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"If you're headed toward trees, I'm guessing your on the wrong line." - S. Russell
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't know...
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Germany - I only want the track map if you tape it to my tank. It's not an original idea, but I don't know where I put the pic of it
I got me a GPS so I it's always up to date, I mostly forget where I'm at...

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2011, 10:56 AM
YO MAMA
 
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: balls deep in someones mom
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Location: balls deep in someones mom
Sportbike: 2010 Electra Glide Police Edition 103cu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safety First View Post
The big thing is everybody has to adapt a riding style that works for them....some people lean way off, some don't, some in the middle.

Look at different AMA riders of past and present....Spies lean's pretty far off, Pegram not at all and somebody like Hodgson and most others were in the middle.

You will find what works for you over time and what feels comfortable....there is no right or wrong answer here.

As far as finding the bikes limits and pushing the front and spinning the rear. To get good at it you will test out a lot of leathers and bodywork....PERIOD!

I like a saying Ben Bostrom said years ago.....We all have our own limits, when we reach those limits and push behind them and don't crash, we just established a new personal limit. Sometimes we push past our own limit and don't save it and crash....you just learned something in the process.

Welcome to the never ending cycle of learning in racing. That's why you see young fast, factory racers crashing a lot. They are finding the limits and learning....as they get older they don't crash that much because they can ride at the limit. Mladin rarely ever crashed, however at the end of his career when he and Spies were duking it out he hit the ground way more than he did the 5 years combined before that because they were at the limit and beyond the entire race beating on one another.

Say what you want but Mat Mladin helped Spies out a lot with his career because of how competitive/talented he was and psychologically prepared him for anything. Rossi doesn't have anything on Mladin when it comes to the mental aspect.

Funny story....when Spies was dating the smokin hot umbrella girl, her name escapes me, all of the Mladins crew had naked pictures of her on their computers as screen savers from her video/photo shoot she sent to Playbody...hilarious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Safety First View Post
If you guys want to learn how to slide a bike...go take an American Supercamp school. It's way cheaper than 1 crash on a bike and you learn a ton and it's a blast.

It's just expensive learning on a roadrace bike because you WILL crash finding your limits and do completely stupid stuff in the process....trust me I've done about all of the boneheaded stuff you can do racing.
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Originally Posted by Safety First View Post
OK...to really look cool put one of those mohawk strips on the top of your helmet.

No that's WINNING!!!!
well said!!!



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