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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Share your knowledge....

So I was thinking the other day, when I was behind my competition in a race, and he almost balled it up out of stupidity right in front of me....

Why don't we, since we are all friends share some basics we picked up over the time riding on track?

Share some of the stuff you learned, out of your own mistakes, or in a school, or you just know, with others. Or if you are not sure about somethings ask them and if you are corrected, go back to your post and fix it... and if you guys don't like the idea, I delete the tread.

I'll start....

Ok back to the topic from the top... I was behind a competitor and put some pressure on him, we came up on the bus stop and he ran wide, on the exit he ran almost in the grass and turned it in an an steep angle. On the way to four he didn't wanted to leave any space and opened the throttle wide to make up for the speed lost he had. Under heavy gas, he almost high sided and probably would have caused a problem to the following bikes as well, since everyone was on his ass...
What I picked up from this scenery, and I already theoricaly knew, is that if you have a different lean angle and turn radius, you have to adjust accordingly.
Tighter turn radius = lower speed / lower acceleration OR
Tighter turn radius = more lean angle and still higher speed.


Also I see a lot of people on the track and in pictures, that miss their Apex by a lot. This is where you need to start working on, forget about going fast down the straight. if you missed your apex in a lap, reduce the speed a bit until you are on the apex, than start adding speed and lean angle until you are at the point, where you can't go any faster.

To find your brake markers, I learned a simple trick from a fast guy that changed a lot for me last time on track...
Make sure nobody is behind you, than squeeze the brakes as hard as you can ( with the given factors, don't grabb it too fast, don't let the rear lift up,...) where you would normally brake, remember how much space you still had left to reach your approach /trail braking speed. Now start cutting the distance in half until you are right there.
This helped me to move my brake marker from somewhere around the tower to almost the 3 board...

Always remember to load up the front suspension ( forks and tire) when braking, that would be that 0.5 sec where you just drag the brake before you get on it...

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Last edited by Germany; 08-30-2011 at 11:26 AM.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:10 AM
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Being an experienced rider working with the B group you see all kinds of crazy stuff, but as far as what I've personally learned this year as my pace has increased was how to listen to the bike.

Unfortunately I don't think there is really a "trick" to it other than just having a lot of seat time, but knowing how quickly you can roll the throttle on and how much you can use the brakes while keeping the bike upright is extremely important to have the confidence needed to go fast.

I know that I can roll the throttle on coming through a corner up until the rear tire starts kind of wallowing or squirming around and I try to maintain that level of "bike discomfort" all the way until the throttle is wide open. By doing this it really doesn't matter how much power your bike has, how good or bad the tires are etc, you sneak up towards the limit and then carefully keep it there, coming out of every corner, never guess at traction levels, always sneak up to it. This allows me to get pretty good drives out of all the corners while maintaining my comfort level because I know the tires I run and what they will put up with. When I jump on other bikes with other tires it's just important to be super super smooth as you work your way up and find a level you are comfortable with on that setup and do the same thing, by being smooth and confident in your inputs you can get away with a lot.

Same thing for braking, like Germany said, first I find out what my brakes are really capible of, feel what the front end and tire feels like under extreme load, see how far you can push it until the rear lifts or starts to move around and then on later laps slowly push back the brake marker until you are somewhat near that level of braking to make the corners. This one is a little harder to do when jumping from bike to bike because I've found many bikes have very different feel from the front end, it takes me quite a while longer to get a good feel from the limits of the front end as it does the power delivery in the rear.

These are the two most important areas to work on for going fast, coming into and exiting corners, i've been behind some very very fast riders but when we are mid corner, there usually isn't a real difference in speed, they're speed all comes from how they get into and how they get out of the corners, long story short, they have better feel in the bike and their particular comfort zones for the bike squirming around are higher.

So this is what I've been working on this year, learning to really understand and listen to what my bike is telling me.

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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:17 AM
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Thanks for the brake marker tip Stephan


NOTE: The following will crash you if not done properly!

One thing I learned at YCRS was that you CAN use the rear brake only to complete your laps if absolutely necessary. Once you practice a bit, you'll be suprised at how effective it can be, and still produce a fair lap time. This is based on being able to simply finish a race for the points that might cinch the championship for you.

I used this at Road America while CR'ing the B-group on 8/26. My front brake pads were almost non-existent, so I pulled myself out of the I-group CR's. This allowed me to perform my CR duties while only utilizing the front brakes when ABSOLUTELY required. Yes, you can even trail-brake slightly with the rear brake, but if you screw this up, then you're likely to highside.

The trick is to KNOW the track, and be able to plan far enough ahead to start your braking while you can gradually increase rear brake pressure, and modulate as needed to set your entry speed. the difference in brake pressure is controlled more by curling your big toe than it is by bending your whole foot down/up. Your foot is the coarse control, and your toes are the fine control.

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Last edited by stkr; 08-30-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:20 AM
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Since much of going fast is using the brakes, and since I had an older suzuki with a crappy master, for gods sake make sure your brakes are "right". Its hard not to put unnecessary inputs into the handle bars, when you have to death grip the brake lever to get the bike to slow down. Make sure your brakes are up to the challenge, fluid, correctly bled, etc. A brembo, accosata, etc master upgrade and ss lines should be high on anyone's list if they are planning to do a lot of trackdays.

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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stkr View Post
Thanks for the brake marker tip Stephan


NOTE: The following will crash you if not done properly!

One thing I learned at YCRS was that you CAN use the rear brake only to complete your laps if absolutely necessary. Once you practice a bit, you'll be suprised at how effective it can be, and still produce a fair lap time. This is based on being able to simply finish a race for the points that might cinch the championship for you.

I used this at Road America while CR'ing the B-group on 8/26. My front brake pads were almost non-existent, so I pulled myself out of the I-group CR's. This allowed me to perform my CR duties while only utilizing the front brakes when ABSOLUTELY required. Yes, you can even trail-brake slightly with the rear brake, but if you screw this up, then you're likely to highside.

Thanks YCRS!
Speaking of......have you heard of anyone purposefully introducing air into the rear system so it is more forgiving?

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:29 AM
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all this sharing of knowledge is good and all but always remember to look good on the track. Don't be that dirty muffucka with ripped leathers and a hungry ass bike.

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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stkr View Post
One thing I learned at YCRS was that you CAN use the rear brake only to complete your laps if absolutely necessary. Once you practice a bit, you'll be suprised at how effective it can be, and still produce a fair lap time. This is based on being able to simply finish a race for the points that might cinch the championship for you.

Thanks YCRS!
I was pretty good in that drill, I think I almost did the same pace as with the front brake.

I love my rear brake, I used it on the Hypermotard a lot, and I belive that's where I started to get the feel for it...

Now the BMW is a totally new world with ABS and stuff, I couldn't find anything in the documentation, but I believe the bike automatically balances the barking, pretty cool feeling....

#19
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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. Don't be that dirty muffucka with ripped leathers and a hungry ass bike.
Thant would be me....

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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:38 AM
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Thant would be me....
how you fixin to get some poontang looking like that son?

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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germany View Post
Make sure nobody is behind you, than hit the brakes as hard as you can where you would normally brake, remember how much space you still had left to reach your approach /trail braking speed. Now start cutting the distance in half until you are right there.
This helped me to move my brake marker from somewhere around the tower to almost the 3 board...
I wanted to modify this a little for people who don't know the difference between "grabbing" and "squeezing" the brake. I'd hate for someone to try this by coming down the front straight of anywhere and suddenly doing a panic grab of the front. That might not end well. You can still brake hard by squeezing.

Motorcycle controls are not on/off switches. They're rheostats.

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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:51 AM
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I wanted to modify this a little for people who don't know the difference between "grabbing" and "squeezing" the brake. I'd hate for someone to try this by coming down the front straight of anywhere and suddenly doing a panic grab of the front. That might not end well. You can still brake hard by squeezing.

Motorcycle controls are not on/off switches. They're rheostats.
You mean like this?


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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 10:55 AM
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holy crap! Ken knows a fat fucking Korean who did the same shit at BHF and broke all his shit and couldn't wipe his own ass after taking a doo doo so his mom had to wipe his ass for him.

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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 11:19 AM
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For some of us slower people, here is my perspective on improving from a B to I pace.

1. Don't focus on lap times. I wanted to get faster, but I had no idea what I was doing. Even if I turned a "fast" lap, usually something else suffered (lines, consistency, nerves, etc.).

2. Focus on the basics and speed will come naturally. Every trackday I ride, I've been focusing on lines, body position, and comfort level. Lines - I'm not always on the apex, but I'm usually in the neighborhood. With more time comes improved path around the track. As you improve, you'll need a benchmark, so be consistent. Most of my laps (at pace) are within 1.5 seconds. If you don't have a consistent pace, you can't determine how the changes you make affect your ride. Comfort - every time I pick up the pace I think "okay, that wasn't too scary. Let's push a little more next time." This will depend on the rider. Some people are fine pushing way over their comfort level, others need to take smaller steps. Whatever it is you're pushing (entry speed, braking, whatever), just don't go too far over your head. Along with learning your limits, you need to know how far over your limits is acceptable. Then, make that your new "normal" riding pace.

3. Watch others, but take it all with a grain of salt. I can watch the A guys turn in, brake zones, lines... but that just won't work at my pace. I mostly watch them to see what could be done, then nibble my way towards making myself get there.

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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 11:56 AM

 
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You can tell people things all day long. Many times, experience and practice are what really makes the difference. I know some people that have been bumped at trackdays and were not ready for the group they were bumped to. They had a good pace and solid line, but they didn't have the experience to deal with things that happen at that pace.

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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 11:59 AM

 
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Nice video Ron. A wise man once told me, "You can tell people a lot of things. You can coach them on what they need to work on. When they don't listen or don't believe you, you sometimes just need to sit back and enjoy the show."

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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
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holy crap! Ken knows a fat fucking Korean who did the same shit at BHF and broke all his shit and couldn't wipe his own ass after taking a doo doo so his mom had to wipe his ass for him.


That is my knowledge right there. If you're gonna break something, don't let it be both your wrists.
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:08 PM
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Speaking of......have you heard of anyone purposefully introducing air into the rear system so it is more forgiving?
I have "heard" of it, but I'm not sure I would trust it. To me, if you introduce air, then you're going to get not only a spongy pedal, but also some very inconsistent braking. I would rather know that they're good to go, and "I" can determine how much hydraulic pressure is applied to the caliper pistons.

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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:22 PM
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I have "heard" of it, but I'm not sure I would trust it. To me, if you introduce air, then you're going to get not only a spongy pedal, but also some very inconsistent braking. I would rather know that they're good to go, and "I" can determine how much hydraulic pressure is applied to the caliper pistons.
I don't use the rear brake much, I much prefer to grab all the down shifts in one shot and dump the clutch and let the slipper deal with it.

However, many racers who like to use the rear brake will drop the rear brake lever down quite a bit to make it more difficult to lock up the rear brake. This (and a return spring) will also help to avoid inadvertently dragging the rear brake with your foot by accident.

In addition, they also use a "lightened" rear brake rotor with much of the surface material removed to further accomplish this reduced braking ability on the rear to avoid locking up the rear tire - the additional weight savings on unsprung rotating mass is nice bonus.

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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:30 PM
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Seat time...

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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:34 PM
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Seat time...
Seat time without prior instruction equals perfected mistakes.

Just sayin...

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 12:35 PM
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Seat time without prior instruction equals perfected mistakes.

Just sayin...
True, but still need seat time, that is unless your Rossi...

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 02:01 PM
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Seat time without prior instruction equals perfected mistakes.

Just sayin...
most will figure it out all by themself. Imagine that. Of course it's alot easier with instruction if you're a capable rider otherwise no amount of instruction will help.

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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 02:18 PM
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most will figure it out all by themself. Imagine that. Of course it's alot easier with instruction if you're a capable rider otherwise no amount of instruction will help.
I do agree with you, there is some truth to the fact that you either "got it" or "you don't". Naturally talented riders seem to be able to go fast on about anything. But even these superstars can't overcome the laws of physics.

Us mere mortals need some solid training to help us avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls that can make riding harder rather than easier.

For example, putting your head "closer" to the ground as you zip around a corner is not an intuitive thing a normal person would do naturally because the sense of speed and danger is definitely increased versus carrying your head up high and riding all crossed up. However, physics shows us that it is actually safer due to the fact that the bike has less lean angle and more contact patch on the ground.

Little tricks like dropping your inside elbow, to reduce the amount of weight and input you are putting in the bars is another trick that is not a natural act to most of us, after all, it is much "easier" to carry some of your weight on the palm of your hands than to carry your weight with your legs and core.

There are many negative tendencies and bad habits that the average rider can fall into that will hinder them in being a fast, safe and consistently quick rider.

In my opinion, if you just getting seat time without understanding then you are probably just perfecting some mistakes.

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:16 PM
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1. Go slow in the slow corners, and go fast in the fast corners.

2. Unless you're a CR, there's no reason for you to look back.

3. ALWAYS fill your tank up during lunch......if not sooner.

4. Trust your bike, your tires, and your brakes. No matter how scared you might be in a situation, make all of your inputs SMOOTH and steady, and look through the turns.

5. When it all goes to shit while you're leaned over - - - stay on the gas! One way or another, it will all be over very soon.

6. When you think you're ready for the next level; line up at the back and let everyone go out first. Now, use your skills and decision making ability to work your way through traffic and back up to the front - LEGALLY. If you don't catch the front, then try harder next time.

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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:24 PM
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Like Ron mentioned above: Get some training to make sure you're practicing correctly.

Whatever school or training program you can afford is the one you should go with. Afterwards, constantly try to apply what you've learned towards your riding. The benefits will come.

Also, share what you've learned with those that are new to the sport, and pay it forward.

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
I do agree with you, there is some truth to the fact that you either "got it" or "you don't". Naturally talented riders seem to be able to go fast on about anything. But even these superstars can't overcome the laws of physics.

Us mere mortals need some solid training to help us avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls that can make riding harder rather than easier.

For example, putting your head "closer" to the ground as you zip around a corner is not an intuitive thing a normal person would do naturally because the sense of speed and danger is definitely increased versus carrying your head up high and riding all crossed up. However, physics shows us that it is actually safer due to the fact that the bike has less lean angle and more contact patch on the ground.

Little tricks like dropping your inside elbow, to reduce the amount of weight and input you are putting in the bars is another trick that is not a natural act to most of us, after all, it is much "easier" to carry some of your weight on the palm of your hands than to carry your weight with your legs and core.

There are many negative tendencies and bad habits that the average rider can fall into that will hinder them in being a fast, safe and consistently quick rider.

In my opinion, if you just getting seat time without understanding then you are probably just perfecting some mistakes.
back in the day when there was no track days or instruction, we just copied what we saw in magazines and videos. Was it natural? Sure because we were riding on the street doing the same crap. Hanging off like monkies and being stupid. The track only made it safer to crash. I think the difference is that now due to trackdays, people who never even thought about racing are getting on the track whereas before, only racerboy wannabes got into racing. You basically really had to want to race to get on the track. Shit was crazy. It went from never being on the track to lining up.

<---- Useless Mufugga
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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:36 PM
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It was awesome! One day of instruction (mostly flags and what NOT to do) and then hit the track with the veterans. What a rush.
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:37 PM
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It was awesome! One day of instruction (mostly flags and what NOT to do) and then hit the track with the veterans. What a rush.
yeah and there were no broads except Nancy Delgado

<---- Useless Mufugga
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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:42 PM
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Oh snap!
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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-30-2011, 03:53 PM
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No doubt it is different now.

Now, what the story on this Delgado character?

Ron Hix
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