Braking on the track - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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Braking on the track

Question for the track riders....Every class I've ever taken (MSF) and every piece of advice I have ever gotten was that braking, gear selection and cornering speed should be done before initiating the turn. Lots of track video I have seen riders are braking with the front turning into the corner. Is this a proper technique or rider error?
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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:29 PM
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MSF is not about riding on the track. The concepts that they teach are for the average person, and supposed to be the simplest to be mastered by anyone.

For the track, throw that crap out, and listen to whoever is teaching you on the track. We have quite a few MSF instructors here who are ALSO track riders, racers, and/or track instructors. We'll have to get a few of them to kick in on the specific differences.

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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:30 PM
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Excellent! I am sensing another trail braking thread.......

or, try here.....

https://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com...+trail+braking

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
MSF is not about riding on the track. The concepts that they teach are for the average person, and supposed to be the simplest to be mastered by anyone.

For the track, throw that crap out, and listen to whoever is teaching you on the track. We have quite a few MSF instructors here who are ALSO track riders, racers, and/or track instructors. We'll have to get a few of them to kick in on the specific differences.
+1 Although some of the concepts may be similar, I don't think you can compare the two. That's just my opinion though.

As Kegger stated, it's commonly known as trail braking which in itself can be a complicated topic. Not only is it used to set corner speed but it's also used to changed the geometry of the bike so as to allow the rider to turn. The search feature is your friend

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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, Kegger's post helped. What I was questioning was the use of the front brake. I'm familiar with trail braking.

I take it this is talked about in the Novice group? Cuz I have no bloody idea what 1% braking is....other than it is really really light braking.
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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:47 PM
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Kegger wimped out here. He IS one of the track guys and MSF instructors.

Someone get Greg in here! LOL!

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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:50 PM
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Based on the question and the answers, Id say dont worry about trailbraking quite yet. Go sign up in whatever organization you are going to run with, go to the classroom portion in the morning and listen to your coaches. They will steer you in the right direction and introduce trail braking when youre ready.

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:53 PM
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And, as Wink has stated, dont ever expect trailbraking to be discussed in the MSF BRC class. BRC stands for basic rider course and trail braking is not basic, the MSF courses are not meant to be the only training you ever take, there meant as a first step

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 01:58 PM
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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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As my MSF coach stated after I passed, "Congratulations. You are now qualified to ride in an empty parking lot."
Yeah I heard that too.
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post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenixs View Post
... What I was questioning was the use of the front brake. I'm familiar with trail braking.
Trail braking is using front brake ...

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post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:12 PM
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And here another news story.... YES you can use your Rear brake ON and OFF the track... how?! We'll tell after a short commercial break in which everyone will tell me I'm wrong...

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post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Trail braking is using front brake ...
My bad.....I thought trail braking was the rear brake
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post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:21 PM
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And here another news story.... YES you can use your Rear brake ON and OFF the track... how?! We'll tell after a short commercial break in which everyone will tell me I'm wrong...
Actually YCRS has specific REAR only exercises. It works GREAT for decreasing radius turns as well!

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post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kot View Post
Trail braking is using front brake ...
Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenixs View Post
My bad.....I thought trail braking was the rear brake
and Yep!

From my understanding, simply put - Trail braking is braking; front, rear, front and rear... whatever it takes to bring the bike down to the apex, get the bike pointed towards the exit, and then SOFTLY releasing the brakes and applying throttle (maintenance or acceleration).

This is in stark contrast to braking to a GUESSED speed, a GUESSED level of available traction, and then turning in... (and hoping for the best)

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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Yep



and Yep!

From my understanding, simply put - Trail braking is braking; front, rear, front and rear... whatever it takes to bring the bike down to the apex, get the bike pointed towards the exit, and then SOFTLY releasing the brakes and applying throttle (maintenance or acceleration).

This is in stark contrast to braking to a GUESSED speed, a GUESSED level of available traction, and then turning in... (and hoping for the best)
......and this is why you guys are such advocates of the track....GOT IT!
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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:32 PM
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I rode street for 20 years.

I learned more on the track my FIRST day about how bikes REALLY work than I did all the time on the street. The local track day orgs have some AWESOME teachers. Understand, I was a street racer, a complete moron, and mistakenly considered myself fast. At the track, I learned that I am slow.

BUT, I also learned a TON about how bikes really work.

That said, I leave the racing to the fast guys. I know my place in the pecking order... LOL!

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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post

I learned more on the track my FIRST day about how bikes REALLY work than I did all the time on the street.
I couldn't agree with that more, Wink. I also agree that there are some great teachers in the various CR Groups. Many of whom have made me the moderately fast rider I am today.

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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
From my understanding, simply put - Trail braking is braking; front, rear, front and rear... whatever it takes to bring the bike down to the apex, get the bike pointed towards the exit, and then SOFTLY releasing the brakes and applying throttle (maintenance or acceleration).

This is in stark contrast to braking to a GUESSED speed, a GUESSED level of available traction, and then turning in... (and hoping for the best)
and YEP!
one word I might use differently here is "releasing" id probably use the phrase "easing off" Ask Greg.

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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth View Post
As my MSF coach stated after I passed, "Congratulations. You are now qualified to ride in an empty parking lot."
I always tell my students:

Congratulations to all of you! Id ride with each and every one of you in any parking lot in the world.

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
I rode street for 20 years.

I learned more on the track my FIRST day about how bikes REALLY work than I did all the time on the street. The local track day orgs have some AWESOME teachers. Understand, I was a street racer, a complete moron, and mistakenly considered myself fast. At the track, I learned that I am slow.

BUT, I also learned a TON about how bikes really work.

That said, I leave the racing to the fast guys. I know my place in the pecking order... LOL!
+1 Eye-opening experience the first time you get passed like you're standing still.

Damn CR's playing in the B group LOL!

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post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, this is making more and more sense. My friend was a product of CSS...she had me reading his book and watching his vids before I ever saw the street.

I do have one more question for any track instructors, and I appologize in advance if this is a stupid question, but as you can tell, I've never been to the track...how do you teach proper corner speed in the novice group. From what I was told Level 1 at Code's school, everyone is told to stay in 3rd gear so as not to worry about gear selection and instead forcus on entry speed
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post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:01 PM
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post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
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and YEP!
one word I might use differently here is "releasing" id probably use the phrase "easing off" Ask Greg.
Easing off is more accurate.

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post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:06 PM
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Ok, this is making more and more sense. My friend was a product of CSS...she had me reading his book and watching his vids before I ever saw the street.

I do have one more question for any track instructors, and I appologize in advance if this is a stupid question, but as you can tell, I've never been to the track...how do you teach proper corner speed in the novice group. From what I was told Level 1 at Code's school, everyone is told to stay in 3rd gear so as not to worry about gear selection and instead forcus on entry speed
First CSS is crap.

Second, there is no such thing as proper corner speed. My speed in a corner is different on each bike I ride, each temp I ride at, each corner I ride, and is of course dependent upon available traction. My perception and understanding of corner speed may be higher than yours (or lower) and certainly Dan Ortega or Jason Farrell's perception of my corner speed would be that I am a road block. Put them against MotoGP guys... and same thing.

Everything is relative.

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post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:32 PM
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post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:36 PM
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dude first day and ur worrying about all this bs. just get out there and learn the track. try to get a nice smooth flow going. your braking goals for the day should be to make every corner and not end up on your head lol.

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post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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So you got your answer to your questions?
Yup......Its time for a track day.

Thanks guys.
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post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:40 PM
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post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old 04-20-2012, 04:44 PM
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Yup......Its time for a track day.

Thanks guys.
Ditto. I am seriously itching to try this out. Does anyone do the STT track days at autobahn in Joliet? Closest track to my house by far.
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