SV vs 600 for the racetrack - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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SV vs 600 for the racetrack

I'm about to take the plunge and buy a newer 600 racebike, but what about the SV. You guys that have ridden both want to comment. I've always liked the SV, know I'll learn to carry more corner speed, etc, etc. The only prob I have is the fact that it only has 70hp. 100hp 600's can run with anything, I'm not sure the SV will be enough to keep up with liter bikes at trackdays (yes, my ego is that fragile). I plan on only doing a few races, so I don't care how competitve the twin classes are.

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 02:26 PM
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I'll tell you what a wise old man told me.

"While you will learn to carry more cornerspeed with an SV and will probably come closer to approaching the limits of the bike sooner, you will be greatly disappointed in the lack of acceleration". (lack of acceleration compared to the bike I'm riding now). I have no idea how dramatic the difference is between the SV and a 600... or if it even is.

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 02:28 PM
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There will be guys out there that will smoke people on 600's, 750's and 1000's on a SV650.

More bang for your $$$ with the SV
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 02:43 PM
 
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True story:

LBK spent the whole season riding a GSXR750. After about 12 laps around BHF on my 50hp hawk he was matching his "BEST EVER" laptimes. I suspect he'll go even faster on his SV next season.

Power is nothing without control.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 02:54 PM
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If you are the kind of person that likes to easily pass lesser bikes on the straights then a 600 is the way to go. If you want to feel the satisfaction of reeling in a 100 hp 600 SS at corner entry and show them your tail on the exit get a SV.

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 03:05 PM
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you still have to go physically faster thru the corner. an SV isn't going to automatically go warp speed thru turn 1. Get a 600

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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 03:20 PM
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I love the my SV on the track, great handleing bike. But if you want to pass 1,000's good luck, I couldn't do it. They say it could be done. You will catch your 1,000's by turn three or so and be held up by them in the corners till the straights come up again.

I low sided mine triying to hard to pass larger bike on the main straight, over driving the tires. But in tires defence, I also dragged my rear brake lever on the ground a number of times, with the rearset at normal stock height.

That is why I now have a 750 for the track.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TZDeSioux
an SV isn't going to automatically go warp speed thru turn 1.
It doesn't

Better check my bike out, it seems to do it all the time

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TZDeSioux
you still have to go physically faster thru the corner. an SV isn't going to automatically go warp speed thru turn 1. Get a 600
True story: at grattan this year i switched with jeff and kruz and immediatley went 2 seconds faster, well one on the R6 and two on the F4i. get a 600!!!

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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 05:56 PM
 
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Personally on the track, I just love the feel nd sound of a bike screwaming ot 13,000+ RPM's.

I really like Jeff's R6 on the track. seemed well balanced and liek a real race machine once you got used ot it.... although the F4i was still super easy to ride. The R6 had a learning curve. Never triend an SV.

BTW - an SV is not typically faster "IN" the corner, it's faster on the entry and immediate exit during transitions...especially the entry. If you can transition quicker than the other guy, you can stay more upright and on the gas longer. A lighter bike also with more centralized mass is easier to brake harder, you get better response and feedback.

IMO - the trick ot passign a 1000 would be to really set him up on on the corner before a stright, get a really good drive and time it so that you end up right on his rear wheel when he's up[right and wide open. if you can stay within 3 or 4 biek lenghts, the pass is a easy clocking move on the brakes. Show him a wheel and steal his line just as he turns in. That being said, you need ot trust each other... this kind of pass is best left to NESBA expert class or wiht other racers. A novice on the 1000 might stand it up and ride off.... or turn into you.

The key is timing the drive out of the corner. When tryign ot keep up wiht the 1000's on my 600, I often struggled getting the timeing just right.... and I usually didn;t have the balls to commit on the brakes.
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRSMAIL
I love the my SV on the track, great handleing bike. But if you want to pass 1,000's good luck, I couldn't do it. They say it could be done. You will catch your 1,000's by turn three or so and be held up by them in the corners till the straights come up again.

I low sided mine triying to hard to pass larger bike on the main straight, over driving the tires. But in tires defence, I also dragged my rear brake lever on the ground a number of times, with the rearset at normal stock height.

That is why I now have a 750 for the track.

Jon
I will have to agree here. Granted, we are in beginner, where the lap time difference between the first group and last group is in excess of 30 seconds. The only difference between the second slowest group and the slowest group is horsepower. Sucks being behind that second slowest group that you can't pass because they have double the horsepower, or setting up for a pass only to be throttle jockied by a slower rider on a bigger bike you somehow managed to just pass. In other groups or other tracks it might not matter.

Another thing to consider is that you already know what to expect with a 600. You know about where the power turns on (roughly, it obviously varies by bike). You might not like the power curve on an SV. I say, ride one on the street through some half ass twisty stuff, or in a parking lot free of cars, and see what you think.

Keep in mind if you buy one with stock suspension, you'll be changing it out immediately (figure close to a grand for that. You could go the previous generation GSXR rear shock, but it would probably need to be rebuilt anyways). For a decent rider, that suspension sucks and depending on the track, it could be dangerous. Don't take a stock suspension SV to Gratten, you'll get motion sickness from the front end dives with the elevation changes!

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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I guess 600 it is.

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by loudes13
I guess 600 it is.
Or you could go 650

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grover
I will have to agree here. Granted, we are in beginner, where the lap time difference between the first group and last group is in excess of 30 seconds. The only difference between the second slowest group and the slowest group is horsepower. Sucks being behind that second slowest group that you can't pass because they have double the horsepower, or setting up for a pass only to be throttle jockied by a slower rider on a bigger bike you somehow managed to just pass. In other groups or other tracks it might not matter.

Another thing to consider is that you already know what to expect with a 600. You know about where the power turns on (roughly, it obviously varies by bike). You might not like the power curve on an SV. I say, ride one on the street through some half ass twisty stuff, or in a parking lot free of cars, and see what you think.

Keep in mind if you buy one with stock suspension, you'll be changing it out immediately (figure close to a grand for that. You could go the previous generation GSXR rear shock, but it would probably need to be rebuilt anyways). For a decent rider, that suspension sucks and depending on the track, it could be dangerous. Don't take a stock suspension SV to Gratten, you'll get motion sickness from the front end dives with the elevation changes!
You got it.

Properly setting up the larger bike in front of me was tough, only once did I get the timing right to stay close enough to get them in turn one. But like said above you don't want to spook the others and or yourself by out braking each other at a Nesba trackday. It's about having fun and learning each time.

I can say that my SV is a lot easier to ride then my 750, but I'm sure today's new 600's feel pretty light too.

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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 08:36 PM
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Get the SV When you pass people they will know its the rider and not the bike.

But the key to passing bigger HP bikes is to be a better rider. plain and simple
But here are a few tricks that I use to get around 1000's on my Supermoto.

1. Don't ride their ass into the corner. leave space before you go in so you can carry your corner speed not theirs. This is the most important tip, you will never win a drag race out.

2. Late apex and dive under them coming out

3. Outbrake them, even if you can't carry more corner speed, get a wheel in there and get them off their line, beginner don't like to have to think about another bike and also worry about a new line. Be careful, if you give them to much to thinking about they'll overload and crash.

4. and when you do get by them in the corner. force them to get around on the outside, pinch them off on the edge of the track, cause them to check up and try to go around on the other side

Becareful with these techniques because if you screw up you can easily take out the other rider

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ducman

1. Don't ride their ass into the corner. leave space before you go in so you can carry your corner speed not theirs.
i consider myself super ultra noobie on the track, but this is something I picked up on very quickly and I am in full agreement.

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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 09:53 PM
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Having raced against both SV's and 600 inline 4's, I'll chime in with a different perspective. Why does an SV brake deeper into a corner than a 600? It's not because the corner speed is faster or you can brake harder. It's because the SV's max speed at the point of getting on the brake is slower than on a 600 so they can go in deeper. And I challenge anyone and I do mean anyone to tell me they go to the 3 marker on a "high corner speed carrying" bike at race pace and I will show you a guy running straight off the track. So this whole thing about corner speed is a crock of shit. If you aint going 70mph thru turn 1 at BHF on your 600, you aint doing it on any bike. Next time you're at the track, go sit by the brake marker and see where the fastest guys let off the throttle and start braking. You will be surprised to know that racers and trackday riders are some exxagerating mofos. So if you do happen to turn faster laps on an SV compared to your bigger bike, it's probably not because you brake and corner like Kevin Schwantz but because it's easier to ride faster.

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 10:32 PM
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I rode faster simply because the bike didn't intimidate me as much. It's like Keith Code when he talks about survival reactions. Basically on the Gixxer I would let off the gas and start braking WAY TOO early. Why? Because I was riding a 750 I had to be hauling ass right? Well whether or not I really was I thought I was therefore causing me to let off the gas and get on the brakes very hard before turn one. Then once I started to turn in I would kick myself in the ass because I knew instantly I could've carried far more speed into the turn. Next lap what happens? Same thing.

So now it's not this bike does x or y better, it's the mental state it leaves you in. The other thing that I found on the SV that helped was the fact that it is a twin with a very broad powerband. May not deliver as much power but it isn't abrupt. So what does that mean, it means that you don't have to worry about wheel spin. In fact gear selection is really a second thought until you get fast enough. Therefore leavig plenty of attention for other things which is again back to Keith Code "Reserving your $10"

I attribute the difference in how the bike feels and what you like. So it makes the learning curve a lot easier in my book because it actually eliminates some of the many mental challenges that you face. Also the other thing I noticed is that with the bigger bikes if you make a mistake they seem much hard to turn in tighter mid corner, which again leads to the panic. You ride a light bike around make a mistake no big deal just turn it in a little tighter which is very easy. Again I think it's just a mental thing.

I've only ridden the SV for 3 day at Jennings but I can tell you for sure on that track (Doesn't have a very long straight) I had no problem getting around anyone. I could carry a good amount of corner speed because I had confidence get passed them, and it wasn't a long enough straight for them to just OUTPOWER me down the straight. That is just my .02

Oh yeah and Ducman is definitely right you don't want to ride their ass that will likely slow you down. Just stay back so you are carrying more momentum.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 10:45 PM
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LBK, very nicely put. So it is easier to ride fast than your 750 yes?

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-18-2003, 11:00 PM
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From all the various points already mentioned, it all comes down to throttle control and breaking. I would suggest that you go with the 600, but then again, I like my 1000! High-tech fuel injection baby!

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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TZDeSioux
LBK, very nicely put. So it is easier to ride fast than your 750 yes?
For me it is, but could be due to not having BIG BRASS ONES!
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lovebothkats
For me it is, but could be due to not having BIG BRASS ONES!
hahaha you're probably riding with bigger brass balls on the SV compared to your 750 because you know that as soon as you disrespect your 750, it'll bitch slap you whereas the SV might give you a slap on the hand. Can't wait to race you in LWGP next year.

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 08:52 AM
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It will be fun if I can get anywhere near you. Although I heard rumors your starts weren't that great.
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lovebothkats
It will be fun if I can get anywhere near you. Although I heard rumors your starts weren't that great.
Ummm..those aren't rumors man.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 09:14 AM
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That's ok man, so I get you off the start it's an 8 lap race you'll catch me and pass me probably by the 3rd lap, that still gives you 5 more to lap me again.

It will be a fun season next year, especially if VTR996 decides to come mix it up on his hawk.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-19-2003, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lovebothkats
That's ok man, so I get you off the start it's an 8 lap race you'll catch me and pass me probably by the 3rd lap, that still gives you 5 more to lap me again.

It will be a fun season next year, especially if VTR996 decides to come mix it up on his hawk.
pass you on the lap 3? You sure you didn't mean turn 3? Just kidding. Anyway, you should have no problem next year. All the lightweight bone heads that were running fast times are moving up to expert. Myself and my buddy Paul who also races a TZ are both staying amateur because we didn't hit the 500 point mark. Paul is a complete cherrypicker though because he won every LWGP he entered last year and he's still not moving up.

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 11:56 PM
 
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I did a dozen track days last year on a 2001 sv 650
stock and a 2002 r6 that was basicaly stock and the only
place i was considerably faster was roadamerica i could
run 29's at gratten on the r6 and 32's on the sv
but for me i use it on the street and the 600 is the obvious choice

John
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