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post #1 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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Can I ask for your opinion

Some of you know that I broke away from MCRA and started my own track day group. When I decided to this I wanted something to set the new events apart and settled on Open Lapping for experienced track day peeps. I thought it would be cool to allow riders to come and go as they please. And, provide more available track time per day than other organizations.

I've read a lot of threads about us. Some think it's great. Some think it's dangerous. Some think it's too expensive.


Price is
$225/day $400/weekend Early reg
That gets you 6 hours of track time. And, most of our CRs are former NESBA


What do you think?

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post #2 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 07:47 AM
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lots of unknowns right now, from an unknown provider. Safety, tech, camping, etc. Price point seems a bit high per day.

I think one of the biggest concerns comes from the "open lapping for experiences riders" There is no definitive line for experience. We've all seen the first timers in I group cause they think they can ride. That is going to happen at your events, how are you going to handle it? What happens when a newbie crashes cause an expert comes by trading paint, not saying there is a reason to be that close at a trackday, but again, there is a risk of that putting everyone together.

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post #3 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 07:56 AM
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You'd probably have to separate into at least two groups. The fast people don't want to ride with slow people, and vice versa. It's definitely unsafe, but being unfun will keep people away.

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post #4 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:04 AM
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Would think that the safest way to do this would be to greatly limit the total amount of people on the track at one time. With advanced riders being so fast I can see big clumps of people adding up fast while going around the track.

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post #5 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:23 AM
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The concept is great, but there are a lot of variables that can be risky. Say I'm riding great, feelin good and I want to throw down a hot lap. I could be running 10-15 seconds (or more?) faster than another rider. Yes in theory I should have the skill to get around them, but we all know anything can happen on the track. You may not be able to control the 'anything can happen' situation, but you can somewhat control the speed differentials in the groups.

CCS runs their practice sessions with no regard for lap time (or skill), and they seem to do okay. The key would be controlling track density and trying to minimize the packs of riders. So I wouldn't say it deters me from doing your trackday, but it is a risk that would be in my mind.

As for cost, the way I analyze a trackday is just the cost per day, not $$ per minute. I realize the possibility for more track time is great, but I don't want to pay a premium for it. 7 or 8 20 minute sessions is enough for me, and I usually sit out a session. I'd likely not do a full weekend with you, just because of the cost.

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post #6 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatFitz9 View Post
Say I'm riding great, feelin good and I want to throw down a hot lap.
I thought all of your laps are hot laps, slow it down a bit

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Originally Posted by PatFitz9 View Post
I could be running 10-15 seconds (or more?) faster than another rider.
We all know your fast, sheesh


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Originally Posted by PatFitz9 View Post
Yes in theory I should have the skill to get around them, but we all know anything can happen on the track. You may not be able to control the 'anything can happen' situation, but you can somewhat control the speed differentials in the groups.
I'd be more concerned with the slow riders than the fast ones with the skills

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post #7 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Its too exspensive plain and simple. When I rented out Jennings I had 2 groups for the first day them made it an open track for the second. I did not charge more than the normal trackday, as a matter of fact I charged alot less and we had only about 30 riders. Instead of getting rich off of the customer, org's need to give the best price possible that way you attract customers.
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post #8 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:51 AM
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We all know your fast, sheesh

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post #9 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 08:55 AM
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Its too exspensive plain and simple. When I rented out Jennings I had 2 groups for the first day them made it an open track for the second. I did not charge more than the normal trackday, as a matter of fact I charged alot less and we had only about 30 riders. Instead of getting rich off of the customer, org's need to give the best price possible that way you attract customers.
This was the best trackday I've ever been to. Partly because Jennings is awesome, but also because the overall package was great. Didn't cost a ton, plenty of free space on the track, great coaching, and even being one of the slowest (ok, the slowest) riders, I had a blast. The open format can work too, I learned a lot being able to see what the fast guys do as they quickly go around me.

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post #10 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 10:13 AM
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much like pat I look at it as a cost per day thing. open format sounds cool but like others said the speed/ skill differential poses an issue, open practice seems to work for CCS practice but the density is pretty low, Id imagine it will be a lot higher at one of your days.

what about breaking it into something like an open endurance session with 2 groups, say each group gets an hour out there, it addresses the grouping issue lets people go in and out more than once for instance is they are trying suspension adjustments it allows time to go out ride it bring it in and adjust and try again back to back. it also addresses a fatigue/dehydration issue where people would stay out as long as they possibly could well past what would be safe or healthy

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post #11 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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i think a 2 - 30 min sessions would be about right. It would seperate the fast from the less fast, plus with 30 minutes you can still make minor adjustments and have time to try those out. Larger adjustment, ie spring change, sprocket change, etc, take about 30 minutes anyway (were not doing pro pits stops here people).

I also think the price point is a bit high, I think 175-185 is in the ball park for a track like BH

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post #12 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 10:43 AM
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(were not doing pro pits stops here people).
Speak for yourself.

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post #13 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 10:45 AM
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People still do track days?

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post #14 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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- CCS comparison is invalid as the racing crowd is more experienced across all ranks (i.e. you gotta have a license at least)
- If you split the TD on three groups, that will already differentiate you from other
orgs at BHF that run four!!!
- I single fast guy in any in a group can upset a LOT of riders so you need a way to isolate those somehow, not possible in a two group format.
- If you want "this TD is for tuning and adjustment for your motorcycle" than you are better off running three groups in 15min format, like in Jennings. Loved that, as I was able to sort my bike in way that was impossible here in MW.

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post #15 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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Speak for yourself.
yea!!!

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post #16 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Its too exspensive plain and simple. When I rented out Jennings I had 2 groups for the first day them made it an open track for the second. I did not charge more than the normal trackday, as a matter of fact I charged alot less and we had only about 30 riders. Instead of getting rich off of the customer, org's need to give the best price possible that way you attract customers.
At $225 we'd make about $4500 if we sold out. That's before fuel and other expenses. To break even we need 51 riders a day. Not trying to make a fortune. Just wanting to pay bills and have fun in the process.

I do greatly appreciate everyone's feedback.

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Last edited by MaximumJEFF; 04-11-2013 at 11:36 AM.
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post #17 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:49 AM
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4500 a day!? Good fuck I am in the wrong line of work.



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post #18 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:53 AM
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51 riders at blackhawk on track at the same time is not gonna end well

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post #19 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:54 AM
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Is it possible to put 50+ riders of varying skill, speed, etc on/offs track at random in an open format safely? Maybe easier on big tracks like road America than smaller ones.


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post #20 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 11:56 AM
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4500 a day!? Good fuck I am in the wrong line of work.
Come on, he just needs to payfor gas and such.


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post #21 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 12:15 PM
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4500 a day!? Good fuck I am in the wrong line of work.
The risk is not worth the reward sometimes. If you don't sell out or break even or in Jeff's case only have and handfull of riders paid for for the weekend you are financially screwed.
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post #22 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 12:23 PM
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^ oh I remember!!! Lol

That's why I stopped long ago hosting them if you guys recall.

I am just busting chops about the profit line.



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post #23 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
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i think a 2 - 30 min sessions would be about right. It would seperate the fast from the less fast, plus with 30 minutes you can still make minor adjustments and have time to try those out. Larger adjustment, ie spring change, sprocket change, etc, take about 30 minutes anyway (were not doing pro pits stops here people).

I also think the price point is a bit high, I think 175-185 is in the ball park for a track like BH
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post #24 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 01:17 PM
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^ oh I remember!!! Lol

That's why I stopped long ago hosting them if you guys recall.

I am just busting chops about the profit line.
I did one of your CLSB days Ken. It was one of the best times I had at the track!

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post #25 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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4500 a day!? Good fuck I am in the wrong line of work.
$4500 for the weekend. If every rider did the weekend price of $400 it'd be less than $2000.

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post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 01:40 PM
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Sounds scary. I'm intermediate level and I can't imagine guys flying by me with the speed of light and on top of that I would have to overtake some guys who are slow and unpredictable. Maybe it will be fun for the fast guys, but not for me. I don't even think two groups are enough. I'm happy with 7 20 min sessions per day. I don't think I would ride more even if I could.
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post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 02:00 PM
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one group come and go as you please sounds good. sink or swim muffuckas!

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post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 02:21 PM
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Just my .02 summed up.

2 groups minimum, different passing rules.
Suggest that the groups can be bumped up or down by CRs. Some days people in the middle will move up or down based on density.

50 riders on track at same time is NOT good. Track density is the key here. In groups of same skills, the simultaneous number on track is different per track. Blackhawk for example runs 25-35 per group depending on who the track day operator is. Road America can handle 60 per group with less density. It all depends on track length, width and flow.

CRs - Higher density, higher traffic groups need CRs as traffic flow and enforcement more than for training. Open track is WONDERFUL for low density.

Relative to the comment above about CCS lapping all skills at same time, there is ZERO skill set required to get a license and they seem to do fine. The reason IMHO that they do fine is that the expectation is that it is a race event, and that all riders are at completely their own risk. Track day riders have some expectation of safety, otherwise they would be out there at CCS at what, $90 (or close, it probably is more these days) for a practice day?

As far as profit, don't forget that there is significant liability and insurance required. Many track day orgs LOSE money at far higher number counts for riders.

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post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
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one group come and go as you please sounds good. sink or swim muffuckas!


I have done the 2 group concept (I & A) and thought that worked well. Maybe give that some thought?

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post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 04-11-2013, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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I have done the 2 group concept (I & A) and thought that worked well. Maybe give that some thought?
There's really no way to make any money at it. Two groups of 35 at @ $185 would barely cover costs.

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