Pounds & Horsepower - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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Pounds & Horsepower

This is interesting, I found this on another site(racemotorcycles.com).

If you take and add the weight of the rider (with full gear) and the weight of the motorcycle and divide that by the horsepower of the bike you get the amount of weight you and/or the bike would have to lose to gain 1 hp.

So:
Horspower of bike
bike weight
rider weight (with gear)
the amount of weight needed to loose to gain that 1 pony

Bike weight + riders weight=Total weight

Total Weight / horsepower = amount of weight needed to gain 1 hp

Now be realistic people, do the formula with a full tank of gas and the bike full of oil. No dry weight #'s here for your bike. And don't cheet and do the formula without your gear weight. A standard set of leathers, boots, gloves, helmet, and load in your pants from blowing through turn 1 into the woods at BHF weighs more than 20 pounds.

My bike fully wet weighs about 380 pounds, I weigh about 185 with all my gear on and my bike makes 69 HP stock (that will change after various modifications)

380+185=565

565/69=8 pounds I or the bike needs to loose to be at 70hp.

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 03:24 PM
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Nick....why do you think I lost almost 40lbs when I had the fizzer But my poor math skills has 6 lbs to gain 1hp.

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
I weigh about 185 with all my gear on

380+185=565

565/69=8 pounds I or the bike needs to loose to be at 70hp.

185lbs? Really? You look about 110lbs wet bro....
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Rice
185lbs? Really? You look about 110lbs wet bro....
You haven't seen me in a while, I got married and I drink a lot of beer. And I'm a happy little fat guy now.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 03:50 PM
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 04:21 PM
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 04:21 PM
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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You guys are way off the subject! Damn it!

It was supposed to be an interesting formula, now its ruined.

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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 04:25 PM
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Why don't we take this whole pounds-to-horsepower thing a step further and just package food that reports nutrition information in terms of horsepower or racing performance? Example: Twinkie: Calories: Enough to get around Grattan 30 times. Fat: Enough to lose 2 seconds off your laptimes at Blackhawk. Iron: Enough to sustain 3 minutes of attentiveness around the carosel at Road America...etc., etc. I know enough racers sick enough to pay for that shit.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 04:37 PM
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here's mine

250+200=450
450/80=5.625
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-28-2006, 05:09 PM
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and mine...

400+190= 590
590/166=3.55 pounds

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-01-2006, 09:00 PM
 
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i dont think that forumla is correct for what your trying to do. Your just finding the ratio of HP to the bikes weight.

I havn't done HP numbers for a while. But to calculate it was to figure out how much work was done over distance and time.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-01-2006, 09:57 PM
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umm.. all this for a simple formula..

my dragracing car;

around 2500lbs w/ driver, unknown hp = 14's in the 1/4

dropped her to 1825 w/ driver, unknown hp = 12's in the 1/4

don't think hp needed per pound is a good exsample.. just lose weight AND make more HP!!!

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-01-2006, 10:16 PM
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The calculation is just good for a really rough estimate. Use wheel HP #s, not crank hp or the calculation is too low.

3450/600=5.75lbs per hp <---daily driven mulletmobile
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolninja
i dont think that forumla is correct for what your trying to do. Your just finding the ratio of HP to the bikes weight.

I havn't done HP numbers for a while. But to calculate it was to figure out how much work was done over distance and time.
See this thread. Argue with the Physics Professor yourself.

I have seen in many threads you love to argue or debate about technical things, I'm sure he will be glad to tango with you.

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-b...157879;start=0

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
See this thread. Argue with the Physics Professor yourself.

I have seen in many threads you love to argue or debate about technical things, I'm sure he will be glad to tango with you.

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-b...157879;start=0

I don't think he realizes that you are an engineer either
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-02-2006, 04:56 PM
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I think it has to sprung or unsprung weight.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 12:41 AM
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The guy's calculations do work with the usual HP calculators. Most serious drag racers know about the calculation already, but if he isn't interested in drag racing he may not have known about it before.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm

Use the first calculator on the page, enter the vehicle weight. From there you will have to guess on trap speed until the calculator comes up with the correct HP. Once you have the right trap speed and HP in the calculator, use the # from Grasshopper's calculation, and subtract that from your vehicle's weight. Hit calculate again, and your new HP # will be down by 1, or very close to it. It was dead on for my car. Again, I don't put too much faith into HP or ET calculators. They don't take traction, aerodynamics, or gearing into consideration. Just an example...gearing a bike -1 and +2 will easily drop 2 tenths and add a couple mph to trap speeds, but an ET or HP calculator can't account for it because weight and HP do not change. The calculator will only say that HP has gone up, when it really hasn't.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 03:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
See this thread. Argue with the Physics Professor yourself.

I have seen in many threads you love to argue or debate about technical things, I'm sure he will be glad to tango with you.

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-b...157879;start=0

I know i will have a better chance then the guy who failed algebra twice on that forum.


Hey, if i took 4 more physics classes, i can get a degree in physics too. Then i can tell everyone im never wrong too. I didn't see anyone get into a heavy debate with him. Except like one guy talking about unsprung weight.


Is your motorcycle really gaining HP or is the bike just losing ET because the engine is doing less work/load. The motor already makes X amount of HP and how is it going to make more HP when it has already been dynoed? And how can you even tell if it "freed hp" without figuring out the difference in time it has performed on the track.


+1 on what Jim said. Calculators have been around for a long time. I would have thought this guy would have put a more complex formula on his thread. Maybe where i can derive the answer.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolninja
I know i will have a better chance then the guy who failed algebra twice on that forum.


Hey, if i took 4 more physics classes, i can get a degree in physics too. Then i can tell everyone im never wrong too. I didn't see anyone get into a heavy debate with him. Except like one guy talking about unsprung weight.


Is your motorcycle really gaining HP or is the bike just losing ET because the engine is doing less work/load. The motor already makes X amount of HP and how is it going to make more HP when it has already been dynoed? And how can you even tell if it "freed hp" without figuring out the difference in time it has performed on the track.


+1 on what Jim said. Calculators have been around for a long time. I would have thought this guy would have put a more complex formula on his thread. Maybe where i can derive the answer.
You seam like the kind of person that could argue with a freaking fence post.

It is a fun basic grade school calculation. You can't change the amount of horsepower the bike makes/delivers to the ground by loosing weight. But you can make the motorcycle excelerate and stop faster aleveating unsprung weight. Less tire wear, less mass. Less weight and mass frees up horsepower.

I am not a Physics major, professor, or a scientist. I am an Electronic/Electrical engineer.

The point is, if you loose weight (you or the motorcycle) there is no argueing that it is easier to go faster around a race track. The bike will slow down better, handle better in the corners, and ecelerate more efficiently.

The most important part about this discussion is showing that loosing weight (motorcycle and/or rider) is the best bang for the buck to go faster.

Argue away, it's a simple fun, grades school formula.

By the way Brian is a very good guy to learn a lot about motorcycle racing from. He is an instructor with Learning Curves Road Races Schools. I have taken 3 or 4 Learning Curves classes and have received a lot of good information about riding and technique from him. I also got a good chance to pick his brain last year at Road America when we were both stationed corner working at turn 1 during the AMA races.

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Last edited by Grasshopper; 03-03-2006 at 08:54 AM.
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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
It is a fun basic grade school calculation. You can't change the amount of horsepower the bike makes/delivers to the ground by loosing weight. .
my point exactly. Your saying, your gaining HP when you lose weight.

Quote:
I am not a Physics major, professor, or a scientist. I am an Electronic/Electrical engineer.
im sure you had to take a minimum of two physics classes in college.

Quote:
The point is, if you loose weight (you or the motorcycle) there is no argueing that it is easier to go faster around a race track. The bike will slow down better, handle better in the corners, and ecelerate more efficiently.
Thats common sense, but your not gaining HP. And you mean "accelerate" quicker



Quote:
By the way Brian is a very good guy to learn a lot about motorcycle racing from. He is an instructor with Learning Curves Road Races Schools. I have taken 3 or 4 Learning Curves classes and have received a lot of good information about riding and technique from him. I also got a good chance to pick his brain last year at Road America when we were both stationed corner working at turn 1 during the AMA races.
why would he say a motorcycle's engine spinning to "quick" is bad. All the racing ive seen, cutting rotation mass is something you need to help you win.
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolninja

Then i can tell everyone im never wrong too.
Heh em...



.... You already do that constantly.




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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 12:02 PM
 
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Heh em...
.... You already do that constantly.
I know your a great guy Tony, and i cant be wrong about that.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolninja
my point exactly. Your saying, your gaining HP when you lose weight.


im sure you had to take a minimum of two physics classes in college.


Thats common sense, but your not gaining HP. And you mean "accelerate" quicker





why would he say a motorcycle's engine spinning to "quick" is bad. All the racing ive seen, cutting rotation mass is something you need to help you win.

Do you race or ride motorcycles at all? How much saddle time do you actually have?

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 01:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
Do you race or ride motorcycles at all? How much saddle time do you actually have?
20 years. plus or minus couple days and that doesn't include experience with automobiles.


Why, am i wrong, that you want an engine to spin faster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr prof
Actually losing rotating weight gives the most bang for the buck, but losing too much can make it difficult to harness the power (wheel spin, revs will rise more quickly).
So if i make my four banger fiero rev quicker, that means it's going to do burn outs.
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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I don't even know why I am answering this question if I'm dealing with such an experienced individual, but I'll go along with it.

If the motorcycle is too lite, the flywheel spins too quick, you will have problems with wheel spin. Too much of an abrupt power delivery. You want the rear tire to hook up to go faster correct?

We can compare this to Flat Track racing. This is why the big Suzuki V-Twins didn't do too well when they first started racing them in AMA flat track. They had the horsepower advantage no doubt, but was the power delivered to the rear wheel in a way useable to propell the motorcycle forward. The Harleys make and always will make less horsepower than the Suzuki, but the Harley makes its power in a way that the rear wheel hooks up. Depending on track conditions, it may sound like some of the Harleys are running on one cyclinder because they retard the timing so the rear hooks up.

Same thing with road racing, Big horsepower isn't always the answer, it's power delivered from the motor to the rear wheel that is useable that matters.

What if you had a bike that made 200 HP and only weighed 100 pounds? The thing would be tire spinning out of control death trap.

If the flywheel spins too fast and the bike is prone to spin the tire you are not going faster around the track.

I think what he was trying to say is that you can only go so far with making your motorcycle weigh less and taking weight off. Too much just like with anything won't help.

Thats the best I know how to explain it. I'm still learning a lot myself and am very open to a lesson anytime someone is willing.

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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper
If your sleeping and i grab the pebble, do i still graduate
thats true in those applications.


Keeping the stock engine and keeping the vehicle the same. Your not going to get wheel spin by removing rotational mass.

What causes the wheels to break lose is torque. And the only way to get the wheels to start breaking lose is to get the vehicle to weigh less(redistribute weight) or to change the gearing. Or add a high torque motor.

If i took the fiero motor and put it on a 300lb go kart. It will be spinning the tires no problem since the torque at the wheels is higher then the weight of the kart.
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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-03-2006, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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I have nothing better to do all day besides talk shit out of my ass to people on the internet.
Good, now go away! The only thing you do is start shit.

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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-07-2006, 10:13 AM
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Let me take a stab at explaining this.....


Speed is simple right ?!? Acceleration = force / mass.

If you want to go faster you need more power ( assuming you can apply it ) or less weight.

I think we all agree on that.......


Here is where the "thinking" around the pounds / horsepower thing comes in.

If you have a bike that is 360 lbs makes 130HP at the wheel and a 200 lbs rider the formula looks like this.

360 + 200 = 560 / 130 = 4.307 Lbs per horsepower

This means each horsepower is burdened by 4.307 pounds.
This is the power / weight ratio of this bike / rider combination.


Let's add horsepower, Jim at 4+6 does his magic and we have 135 !

360 + 200 = 560 / 135 = 4.148 Lbs per Horsepower

We have IMPROVED the power / weight ratio by adding horsepower !


What if we can't afford Jim's magic or titanium..... Lose weight !

How much weight would we have to lose to have equal effect ?

21 Lbs !

360 + 179 = 539 / 130 = 4.146 Lbs per Horsepower


So for this bike rider combination

21 Lbs = 5 Horsepower or about 4.2 Lbs per Horsepower !



Remember, you have to go through the whole formula for YOUR package to figure this out.


Hope this helps.

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