Where do you roll it on?????? - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Where do you roll it on??????

I think I may start rolling on the power a little too early. Where do you guys start rolling on the power.

Long turns like exit ramps really confuse me. It seems I always get too excited and get on the gas too much to early.

Here is where I usually start on short turns

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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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OK obviously my editting didn't work I usually get on the gas in the early part of the entry stage. Should I wait till the middle???

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:45 AM
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It all depends. I think Code says the best line through a corner is one that lets you get on the gas earliest. For me, sometime after apex. Getting too greedy can push you wide for sure. It's not optimal but you can use the throttle to control your line, otherwise increase your lean angle.

That diagram you have there scares me. In general I enter later, apex later, and have more safety margin on exit.

It would seem the Entry Phase in your diagram would be too early to roll on. Most racers are still braking through that area.

Last edited by Jack; 02-26-2003 at 09:51 AM.
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:51 AM
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i roll on right before i put it in.



I roll on the gas at apex or just there after. the more you roll on it the wider you'll go, or the more you'll need to lean. exit ramps are a whole different story, like a carousel. Just roll on the whole time till you think a bit more would run you wide(or step out your rear lol), then hold it steady(this works best if you've been on this road before). Remember riding ten tenths leaves little room for readjustment, especially on the street.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack

That diagram you have there scares me. In general I enter later, apex later, and have more safety margin on exit.

It would seem the Entry Phase in your diagram would be too early to roll on. Most racers are still braking through that area.

Looking again you're right. I think my entry would be more toward the beginning of the Middle point. Either way, I usually dive and gas in almost a fluid motion. I'm not sure thats right but when I'm confident that's what I do. If I'm not confident I'll wait to the apex to roll it on, but I'm not sure that's right either.

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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vcook
i roll on right before i put it in.



I roll on the gas at apex or just there after. the more you roll on it the wider you'll go, or the more you'll need to lean. exit ramps are a whole different story, like a carousel. Just roll on the whole time till you think a bit more would run you wide(or step out your rear lol), then hold it steady(this works best if you've been on this road before). Remember riding ten tenths leaves little room for readjustment, especially on the street.

True.....always leave a bit more room for error on the street.

I may have to disagree with you on the ramps though. Most seem to be double apex and seem to call for more of a gas on...gas off...gas on type of pattern.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 09:57 AM
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if your getting on the gas in the entry part of the turn you have slowed down way to much. Usually you should be rolling back on the throttle as you hit the apex so it pulls you out to complete the corner!

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by JimGoFast
if your getting on the gas in the entry part of the turn you have slowed down way to much. Usually you should be rolling back on the throttle as you hit the apex so it pulls you out to complete the corner!

I had heard that not getting on the gas before you hit the apex will be putting to much stock in the grip of your front tire. Getting on the gas before the apex flexes the beck tire onto the ground and distributes the weight between the two. I guess the theory is two tires grip better than one.

Was I learned wrong.

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vcook
i roll on right before i put it in.
Can you teach Nick how that works?

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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crazy



I had heard that not getting on the gas before you hit the apex will be putting to much stock in the grip of your front tire. Getting on the gas before the apex flexes the beck tire onto the ground and distributes the weight between the two. I guess the theory is two tires grip better than one.

Was I learned wrong.
I get back on, right before maximum lean angle for the turn, this settles the bike in comfortably.

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crazy



I had heard that not getting on the gas before you hit the apex will be putting to much stock in the grip of your front tire. Getting on the gas before the apex flexes the beck tire onto the ground and distributes the weight between the two. I guess the theory is two tires grip better than one.

Was I learned wrong.
Not necessarily, but there's a difference between rolling it on and maintenance throttle. If you don't add some throttle when you lean the bike over, you will be slowing down and putting more weight than optimal on your front tire. When you turn in, if you're not still braking, add some throttle to maintain speed and to distribute weight to the rear tire which provides most of the traction. Then roll on when you can based on your exit line.

Last edited by Jack; 02-26-2003 at 10:21 AM.
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:16 AM
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I always give some gas to settle the suspension before I enter the turn, but I'm a paranoid. I've always heard the you can actually hold a tighter line by rolling it on in the turn, I usually roll it just before the apex( if I get the turn right which is rare).

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack


Not necessarily, but there's a difference between rolling it on and maintenance throttle. If you don't add some throttle when you lean the bike over, you will be slowing down and putting more weight than optimal on your front tire. When you turn in, if you're not still braking, add some throttle to maintain speed. Then roll on when you can based on your exit line.
OK cool that makes sense. A little stabiliztion gas before rolling it on. Good info guys

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:26 AM
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I agree about the maintaing some throttle going into the turn, but his original question was when do you get back on the power, depending on the corner, i would think that its going to be real close to the apex but again it depends on the type of corner it is. if you take the carasuel at road america as an example you are not back on the throttle hard until you are hitting the rumble strips exiting the turn, but you are adding throttle or maintaining throttle through out the entire carasuel!(this would be the closest to a on ramp)

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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:33 AM
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What Jimbo said....
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 10:56 AM
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I usally roll on in the beginning, hit the brakes near the apex and then shit my pants as I approach the edge of pavement on the exit.




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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by GsxrTony
I usally roll on in the beginning, hit the brakes near the apex and then shit my pants as I approach the edge of pavement on the exit.

And here I'm thinking that was your busa that smelled soooo bad.:shocked :shocked

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 11:47 AM
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Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm slow..

It all depends on the corner for me. If I'm comfortable, I'll get on the gas a lot sooner (turn 7 at Blackhawk for example). While going into turn 1 at blackhawk, I'm not as comfortable so I get on the gas at the apex, rather than before. That's when the Control Rider goes from 1 bike length to 4. But there, I may be carrying more speed going into it since it's right after the front straight.

I never ride too hard on the exit/enterance ramps. The ones around here all suck (road condition-wise), so I'm REALLY carefull. And I'm not too good at big, sweeping corners either. I had 3 run offs in turn 6 on one track day

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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 12:07 PM
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what i do is inter HOT.,..slamm the front break till the rear tire comes up., flick my off rocker switch off, then when i am about to exit, start the bike back up...drop it into 2nd gear and pop the clutch and do a wheelie



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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 01:20 PM
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You guys need to get to the track because UR all messed up....

Enter the corner hot and I mean hot.....get in the right gear.
Brake hard to a speed you are comfortable leaning it way over in...
Lean it over hard and when you are about to hit the apex start to roll it on smoothly.
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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 02:46 PM
 
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The thing about 4 strokes is that you need ot transition from engine braking ot neutral throttle first (unless you have a slipper clutch).... I try and do that before the apex because even a very well tuned engine isn’t perfectly smooth not to mention any drive train slop you have. Then I roll it on as I come past the apex as the bike starts to go upright. In theory you’re using maximum traction at the apex and you roll it on as traction becomes available when you start gong upright.

Remember that pie chart for traction?... anyone…anyone… bueller…bueller. With a 600 I’m usually WOT well before the exit. And if my corner speed is too slow, I’ll just get on it earlier.

In summary
1) Brake for the turn... Scrubbing off most of your speed
2) Ease off the brake and begin turn the bike in so the forks rebound very slowly
3) Just before the apex, get to neutral throttle to remove all of the engine braking.
4) If you’re in too hot, you can keep engine braking and feathering the front brakes and hit a late apex… your exit is blown, but you’ll stay on the track.
5) Roll on the throttle moderately slow and feel for any loss of traction through the pegs and the seat. Ease up lightly BUT DON’T LIFT (high side city) if the rear starts to step out.
6) You should be WOT just before the exit (much earlier on a 600) Watch for headshake as the front end unweights while still leaned over.

Repeat as necessary
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cherrypicker
The thing about 4 strokes is that you need ot transition from engine braking ot neutral throttle first (unless you have a slipper clutch).... I try and do that before the apex because even a very well tuned engine isn’t perfectly smooth not to mention any drive train slop you have. Then I roll it on as I come past the apex as the bike starts to go upright. In theory you’re using maximum traction at the apex and you roll it on as traction becomes available when you start gong upright.

Remember that pie chart for traction?... anyone…anyone… bueller…bueller. With a 600 I’m usually WOT well before the exit. And if my corner speed is too slow, I’ll just get on it earlier.

In summary
1) Brake for the turn... Scrubbing off most of your speed
2) Ease off the brake and begin turn the bike in so the forks rebound very slowly
3) Just before the apex, get to neutral throttle to remove all of the engine braking.
4) If you’re in too hot, you can keep engine braking and feathering the front brakes and hit a late apex… your exit is blown, but you’ll stay on the track.
5) Roll on the throttle moderately slow and feel for any loss of traction through the pegs and the seat. Ease up lightly BUT DON’T LIFT (high side city) if the rear starts to step out.
6) You should be WOT just before the exit (much earlier on a 600) Watch for headshake as the front end unweights while still leaned over.

Repeat as necessary





wtf??? dude you need to stop analizing everything and ride, i bet that would shave 5-6 seconds off your lap times!:shocked

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 06:20 PM
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i know everyone is tired of this picture(well kruz and I are not ) but this picture will do a good job of showing who is off and who is on. looking at the picture you can see that at that moment Kruz and I are the only two on the gas, dave and jeff are about to hit the apex and get back on the throttle while the 3 in back are braking or off throttle setting up for the corner.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 06:23 PM
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ya cant tell someone how to get better to a point...ya gotta FEEL it for yourself. with the teachings you heard and collected from every sorce you can...then go out and see what works for you.



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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 06:31 PM
 
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Get back on the throttle before the apex.......you will be far, far, far, less likely (some say impossible) to lose the front with positive throttle.
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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-26-2003, 08:14 PM
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Thats one sweet shot

If there was a rider between Jim and Dave #899, that would be where I would roll on the throttle.
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-27-2003, 12:52 PM
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OK - Not to split hairs or contradict everyone (cause y'all probably kick my ass on the track) - BUT...

I'm assuming I'm gonna FINISH my breaking before I turn in (sound like some of you guys have a more advanced approach). So I let off the breaks and get to aleast neutral throttle right before I turn in - anything else upsets the bike while I'm leaned over (rebound from braking, or cracking the throttle on from an engine braking position). I IMMEDIATELY apply very light throttle to optimize front-back tire weight distribution (bigger back tire can provide more traction than front - so ideally you want a little more weight in back). I KEEP a slightly POSITIVE throttle through the whole first half of the turn - this provides better overall traction, keeps the bike leaned over, and you are NOT really speeding up !! Due to the decreased tire radius and the powerloss due to the fact that your are changing direction, you are more likely to be maintaining your actual ground speed as you apporach the apex. Then like everyone said, the real 'roll on' starts near (for me -just after) the apex.

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-27-2003, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kruz
Thats one sweet shot
Huh?

No here's a sweet shot, same corner!


I'm too lazy and don't have the time, but imagine me cropped into that photo with the caption, "don't mind me, just pass'n through."
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-27-2003, 01:06 PM
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Well said! I try to do this, but, at 1/100000th of the speed of you folks. In general, I'm done braking BEFORE the corner and before I lean it. Now, I know I break a lot sooner and a lot more than most of you, but I'm doing the 'brake just a little later' trick to overcome that.

All this technical talk is making me nuts. Damnit, where's spring?

Chris

Quote:
Originally posted by selston
OK - Not to split hairs or contradict everyone (cause y'all probably kick my ass on the track) - BUT...

I'm assuming I'm gonna FINISH my breaking before I turn in (sound like some of you guys have a more advanced approach). So I let off the breaks and get to aleast neutral throttle right before I turn in - anything else upsets the bike while I'm leaned over (rebound from braking, or cracking the throttle on from an engine braking position). I IMMEDIATELY apply very light throttle to optimize front-back tire weight distribution (bigger back tire can provide more traction than front - so ideally you want a little more weight in back). I KEEP a slightly POSITIVE throttle through the whole first half of the turn - this provides better overall traction, keeps the bike leaned over, and you are NOT really speeding up !! Due to the decreased tire radius and the powerloss due to the fact that your are changing direction, you are more likely to be maintaining your actual ground speed as you apporach the apex. Then like everyone said, the real 'roll on' starts near (for me -just after) the apex.

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 02-27-2003, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack


Huh?

No here's a sweet shot, same corner!


I'm too lazy and don't have the time, but imagine me cropped into that photo with the caption, "don't mind me, just pass'n through."
Can I borrow that and tell people it's me

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